Moving To Singapore

decoweenie · 21st June 2007, 05:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

As long as you're on nice ex-pat dollars and you're not working 12-18 hour days and weekends like the local slaves Singapore will be a good spot to be based. Just as well since you'll be paying upwards of 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness.

I think we are on a tangent curve, but what the heck...

I think that's true for most ex-pat locations, prices tend to be driven up due the high demand...

For Singapore, it is because of the limited resources (i.e. land, having to import everything even water, etc) as the island is only 30x40 km, IIRC (i.e. the size of loop-610 if anyone is familiar with Houston) and 3 millions people.

One of the "justifications" for ex-pat job (working overseas away from home country) is the higher compensation. Take that away and the incentive is lost (for most people).

Of course, there are nicer ex-pat locations like Singapore, KL, Thailand, etc and crappy locations like Iran, Afganistan, Saudi, etc. So depending on your "luck"...

And 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness is not that expensive, I have seen much worse...

Drmike · 21st June 2007, 06:07

bit of a hyjack but,

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

As long as you're on nice ex-pat dollars

Those days are almost totally over - 95% of expats unless they are filling a vital role come here now on local contracts (no housing allowances, same pay as locals ect)

Quote:

and you're not working 12-18 hour days and weekends like the local slaves

Now Thats funny!

I agree a small minority of singaporeans work late nights long hours but that type is usually self motivated. Generally though I find Singaporean staff dont have such a strong work ethic (I am an employer) and all want to be 'managers' so me and many of by business associates are forced to employ people from India, China etc. Many locals have false (somewhat dated) ideas about the expat workforce but I can tell you this the biggest business hardship doing business in singapore is the acute lack of qualified, experienced and willing staff - its simply too small an island. We are forced to import staff. Without them many businesses would fold. The Gov is aware of this which is why they support bringing in expats

Quote:

Singapore will be a good spot to be based. Just as well since you'll be paying upwards of 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness.

yeh but at least I dont have to worry about waking up hung over in a hotel with over 5K worth of drinks reciepts in my pocket like I did after a heavy session in Tokyo! ...and I dont even like champagne

but clearl;y the 2 spanish girls I alegedly met did - although I have almost no recollection

decoweenie · 21st June 2007, 06:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

yeh but at least I dont have to worry about waking up hung over in a hotel with over 5K worth of drinks reciepts in my pocket like I did after a heavy session in Tokyo!

That story is still funny hearing the 2nd time...

But Mike, look on the bright side, you could have woken up with much worse depending which bar you got drunk in OT...

kieranu · 21st June 2007, 06:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

bit of a hyjack but,
Those days are almost totally over - 95% of expats unless they are filling a vital role come here now on local contracts (no housing allowances, same pay as locals ect) Now Thats funny!

I agree a small minority of singaporeans work late nights long hours but that type is usually self motivated. Generally though I find Singaporean staff dont have such a strong work ethic (I am an employer) and all want to be 'managers' so me and many of by business associates are forced to employ people from India, China etc. Many locals have false (somewhat dated) ideas about the expat workforce but I can tell you this the biggest business hardship doing business in singapore is the acute lack of qualified, experienced and willing staff - its simply too small an island. We are forced to import staff. Without them many businesses would fold. The Gov is aware of this which is why they support bringing in expats
yeh but at least I dont have to worry about waking up hung over in a hotel with over 5K worth of drinks reciepts in my pocket like I did after a heavy session in Tokyo! ...and I dont even like champagne

but clearl;y the 2 spanish girls I alegedly met did - although I have almost no recollection

Dude, I'm originally from the UK (now in Oz), my wife is a Singaporean, and I was (and still am) friendly with both ex-pats and locals while over there. I knew quite a few ex-pats in the engineering, banking, and even the education sector (i.e. teachers at international schools) that had salaries at least double that to the locals and their apartments paid for and some of whom flew to Bali EVERY weekend at one point while I was earning the relatively good local salary of $2k a month as a software developer (before the 20% CPF deduction) and paying $1300 a month to live in a tiny flat overlooking the port. You do the math. I agree that many Singaporean staff don't have a strong work ethic but many of them work the long days and weeks because they ain't got much choice (if you call not wanting to lose you're job so you're able to pay the rent self-motivation so be it) and the pay scale and available leave is atrocious unless you do become an 'executive' not to mention the probationary periods where you can't take leave at all. This may be their reason behind their desire to attain this goal - there is an incredible amount of pressure on Singaporeans to achieve from an early age and they are generally fairly materialistic so its probably not really a lack of work ethic, perhaps a lack of creativity or initiative. All I know is that between work and the infinite number of meetings that seemed to crop up outside of standard office hours it was not uncommon for us to be working around 12 hours a day. Perhaps the economy is bouncing back since that time and you obviously have a good relationship with the government (or they have finally opened their eyes to the lack of competent local staff) hence your ability to bring in lots of foreign workers. I can empathise with the lack of skilled staff. During the "economic downturn" in 2002, the government didn't renew any of the employment passes for our Indian developers and the start-up I co-ran ended up going out of business. After that my employment pass also wasn't renewed so I had to leave the country every 30 days to get my visa renewed and was effectively unemployable until I got permanent residency through my wife a few months later. Then I scored that awesome $2k a month job! Now I'm here in Oz and I get to see my wife every night and dive my Meg every weekend ... or should that be the other way round

Burrendive · 21st June 2007, 07:30

Hey Guys,

Cheers for the info. Will throw in the tanks so. Have some more sorb on order aswell. DrMike will drop a line when in town. 45 mins flight to undived caves sounds sweet. Still will be hard to let go of my leaky dry suit diving in slurry filled caves

.

Quote:

I was tempted to tell you to leave your kit behind because the fewer that know how good it is the better.

Promise not to spread the word too far.

Quote:

Those days are almost totally over - 95% of expats unless they are filling a vital role come here now on local contracts (no housing allowances, same pay as locals ect)

Have to agree thats pretty much how it was laid out to me from the start.

Quote:

And 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness is not that expensive, I have seen much worse...

Should I include a few kegs of the good stuff for those long deco stops

. Just as well I'm partial to a few tigers.

kieranu · 21st June 2007, 07:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Burrendive)

Hey Guys,

Cheers for the info. Will throw in the tanks so. Have some more sorb on order aswell. DrMike will drop a line when in town. 45 mins flight to undived caves sounds sweet. Still will be hard to let go of my leaky dry suit diving in slurry filled caves

.

Promise not to spread the word too far.

Have to agree thats pretty much how it was laid out to me from the start.

Should I include a few kegs of the good stuff for those long deco stops

. Just as well I'm partial to a few tigers.

Hopefully you can actually afford to go diving then

Big bottles of Tiger in the coffee shop are pretty cheap as is the food - discover the wonders of Gayatri in Little India over a few bottles - its all good!

kieranu · 21st June 2007, 07:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I think we are on a tangent curve, but what the heck...

I think that's true for most ex-pat locations, prices tend to be driven up due the high demand...

One of the "justifications" for ex-pat job (working overseas away from home country) is the higher compensation. Take that away and the incentive is lost (for most people).

I don't dispute that - wish I had been working on an expat salary like my brother who is a teacher in your neck of the woods and gets a free trip "home" every year on top of everything else. Just making sure he knew what he was in for - nothing worse than being surrounded by great places to dive and not being able to afford to actually do it (as was my situation). On the flipside, absolutely fantastic if all your income is disposable so you can dive all you want.

decoweenie · 21st June 2007, 08:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

On the flipside, absolutely fantastic if all your income is disposable so you can dive all you want.

That would be our DrMike...

BA$TARD!!!

Drmike · 21st June 2007, 09:57

Ive lived in Singapore for 11 years and was married to a Singaporean for 6 of those years. You say you left in 2004? well the average expat packages have been dropping steadily since around 97. Just ask people like JohnK here. We were bringing PhD holders in 10 years ago with salary that matched their housing allowances, plus schooling plus medical, plus 12 months salary as lump sum bonus at end of 3 year contract. Now 10 years later new expats get practically same as locals with same qualifications (why shouldn't they) no housing, no medical, no bonuses - nada.

10 years ago you never saw expats living in HDBs now its actually quite common.

Just like any other country in the world when they need experts in certain fields they have to bring these specialists in if they cant be found locally. These people get a premium (why shouldn't they) and can enjoy the financial disparity you talk about. I don't see what's wrong with that. They are afterall headhunted and will perform a function that will usually generate far more value than they cost.

An office worker no mater how hard he works or how many hours he works can only create so much value - so they are paid accordingly. These 'expert' expats (the ones that still get the high salaries and perks) can in theory at least generate far more value - and are paid accordingly..economics

Drmike · 21st June 2007, 10:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Burrendive)

Hey Guys,

Cheers for the info. Will throw in the tanks so. Have some more sorb on order aswell. DrMike will drop a line when in town. 45 mins flight to undived caves sounds sweet. Still will be hard to let go of my leaky dry suit diving in slurry filled caves

.

.

Bring the suit. Those caves can get cold on long hangs. Got some expeditions to Sra Keow and area caves coming up this year and next your welcome to join. Do you like French food

21st June 2007, 05:57	#11 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Moving To Singapore Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) As long as you're on nice ex-pat dollars and you're not working 12-18 hour days and weekends like the local slaves Singapore will be a good spot to be based. Just as well since you'll be paying upwards of 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness. I think we are on a tangent curve, but what the heck... I think that's true for most ex-pat locations, prices tend to be driven up due the high demand... For Singapore, it is because of the limited resources (i.e. land, having to import everything even water, etc) as the island is only 30x40 km, IIRC (i.e. the size of loop-610 if anyone is familiar with Houston) and 3 millions people. One of the "justifications" for ex-pat job (working overseas away from home country) is the higher compensation. Take that away and the incentive is lost (for most people). Of course, there are nicer ex-pat locations like Singapore, KL, Thailand, etc and crappy locations like Iran, Afganistan, Saudi, etc. So depending on your "luck"... And 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness is not that expensive, I have seen much worse... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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21st June 2007, 06:07	#12 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Moving To Singapore bit of a hyjack but, Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) As long as you're on nice ex-pat dollars Those days are almost totally over - 95% of expats unless they are filling a vital role come here now on local contracts (no housing allowances, same pay as locals ect) Quote: and you're not working 12-18 hour days and weekends like the local slaves Now Thats funny! I agree a small minority of singaporeans work late nights long hours but that type is usually self motivated. Generally though I find Singaporean staff dont have such a strong work ethic (I am an employer) and all want to be 'managers' so me and many of by business associates are forced to employ people from India, China etc. Many locals have false (somewhat dated) ideas about the expat workforce but I can tell you this the biggest business hardship doing business in singapore is the acute lack of qualified, experienced and willing staff - its simply too small an island. We are forced to import staff. Without them many businesses would fold. The Gov is aware of this which is why they support bringing in expats Quote: Singapore will be a good spot to be based. Just as well since you'll be paying upwards of 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness. yeh but at least I dont have to worry about waking up hung over in a hotel with over 5K worth of drinks reciepts in my pocket like I did after a heavy session in Tokyo! ...and I dont even like champagne but clearl;y the 2 spanish girls I alegedly met did - although I have almost no recollection __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 21st June 2007 at 06:10.
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21st June 2007, 06:15	#13 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Moving To Singapore Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) yeh but at least I dont have to worry about waking up hung over in a hotel with over 5K worth of drinks reciepts in my pocket like I did after a heavy session in Tokyo! That story is still funny hearing the 2nd time... But Mike, look on the bright side, you could have woken up with much worse depending which bar you got drunk in OT... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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21st June 2007, 06:41	#14 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Moving To Singapore Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) bit of a hyjack but, Those days are almost totally over - 95% of expats unless they are filling a vital role come here now on local contracts (no housing allowances, same pay as locals ect) Now Thats funny! I agree a small minority of singaporeans work late nights long hours but that type is usually self motivated. Generally though I find Singaporean staff dont have such a strong work ethic (I am an employer) and all want to be 'managers' so me and many of by business associates are forced to employ people from India, China etc. Many locals have false (somewhat dated) ideas about the expat workforce but I can tell you this the biggest business hardship doing business in singapore is the acute lack of qualified, experienced and willing staff - its simply too small an island. We are forced to import staff. Without them many businesses would fold. The Gov is aware of this which is why they support bringing in expats yeh but at least I dont have to worry about waking up hung over in a hotel with over 5K worth of drinks reciepts in my pocket like I did after a heavy session in Tokyo! ...and I dont even like champagne but clearl;y the 2 spanish girls I alegedly met did - although I have almost no recollection Dude, I'm originally from the UK (now in Oz), my wife is a Singaporean, and I was (and still am) friendly with both ex-pats and locals while over there. I knew quite a few ex-pats in the engineering, banking, and even the education sector (i.e. teachers at international schools) that had salaries at least double that to the locals and their apartments paid for and some of whom flew to Bali EVERY weekend at one point while I was earning the relatively good local salary of $2k a month as a software developer (before the 20% CPF deduction) and paying $1300 a month to live in a tiny flat overlooking the port. You do the math. I agree that many Singaporean staff don't have a strong work ethic but many of them work the long days and weeks because they ain't got much choice (if you call not wanting to lose you're job so you're able to pay the rent self-motivation so be it) and the pay scale and available leave is atrocious unless you do become an 'executive' not to mention the probationary periods where you can't take leave at all. This may be their reason behind their desire to attain this goal - there is an incredible amount of pressure on Singaporeans to achieve from an early age and they are generally fairly materialistic so its probably not really a lack of work ethic, perhaps a lack of creativity or initiative. All I know is that between work and the infinite number of meetings that seemed to crop up outside of standard office hours it was not uncommon for us to be working around 12 hours a day. Perhaps the economy is bouncing back since that time and you obviously have a good relationship with the government (or they have finally opened their eyes to the lack of competent local staff) hence your ability to bring in lots of foreign workers. I can empathise with the lack of skilled staff. During the "economic downturn" in 2002, the government didn't renew any of the employment passes for our Indian developers and the start-up I co-ran ended up going out of business. After that my employment pass also wasn't renewed so I had to leave the country every 30 days to get my visa renewed and was effectively unemployable until I got permanent residency through my wife a few months later. Then I scored that awesome $2k a month job! Now I'm here in Oz and I get to see my wife every night and dive my Meg every weekend ... or should that be the other way round Last edited by kieranu : 21st June 2007 at 06:50. Reason: more info
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21st June 2007, 07:30	#15 (permalink)
Burrendive New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 9	Re: Moving To Singapore Hey Guys, Cheers for the info. Will throw in the tanks so. Have some more sorb on order aswell. DrMike will drop a line when in town. 45 mins flight to undived caves sounds sweet. Still will be hard to let go of my leaky dry suit diving in slurry filled caves . Quote: I was tempted to tell you to leave your kit behind because the fewer that know how good it is the better. Promise not to spread the word too far. Quote: Those days are almost totally over - 95% of expats unless they are filling a vital role come here now on local contracts (no housing allowances, same pay as locals ect) Have to agree thats pretty much how it was laid out to me from the start. Quote: And 10 Euro for a pint of Guinness is not that expensive, I have seen much worse... Should I include a few kegs of the good stuff for those long deco stops . Just as well I'm partial to a few tigers.
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21st June 2007, 07:35	#16 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Moving To Singapore Quote: (Originally Posted by Burrendive) Hey Guys, Cheers for the info. Will throw in the tanks so. Have some more sorb on order aswell. DrMike will drop a line when in town. 45 mins flight to undived caves sounds sweet. Still will be hard to let go of my leaky dry suit diving in slurry filled caves . Promise not to spread the word too far. Have to agree thats pretty much how it was laid out to me from the start. Should I include a few kegs of the good stuff for those long deco stops . Just as well I'm partial to a few tigers. Hopefully you can actually afford to go diving then Big bottles of Tiger in the coffee shop are pretty cheap as is the food - discover the wonders of Gayatri in Little India over a few bottles - its all good!
(Offline)

21st June 2007, 07:50	#17 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Moving To Singapore Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I think we are on a tangent curve, but what the heck... I think that's true for most ex-pat locations, prices tend to be driven up due the high demand... One of the "justifications" for ex-pat job (working overseas away from home country) is the higher compensation. Take that away and the incentive is lost (for most people). I don't dispute that - wish I had been working on an expat salary like my brother who is a teacher in your neck of the woods and gets a free trip "home" every year on top of everything else. Just making sure he knew what he was in for - nothing worse than being surrounded by great places to dive and not being able to afford to actually do it (as was my situation). On the flipside, absolutely fantastic if all your income is disposable so you can dive all you want.
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21st June 2007, 08:24	#18 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Moving To Singapore Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) On the flipside, absolutely fantastic if all your income is disposable so you can dive all you want. That would be our DrMike... BA$TARD!!! __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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21st June 2007, 09:57	#19 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Moving To Singapore Ive lived in Singapore for 11 years and was married to a Singaporean for 6 of those years. You say you left in 2004? well the average expat packages have been dropping steadily since around 97. Just ask people like JohnK here. We were bringing PhD holders in 10 years ago with salary that matched their housing allowances, plus schooling plus medical, plus 12 months salary as lump sum bonus at end of 3 year contract. Now 10 years later new expats get practically same as locals with same qualifications (why shouldn't they) no housing, no medical, no bonuses - nada. 10 years ago you never saw expats living in HDBs now its actually quite common. Just like any other country in the world when they need experts in certain fields they have to bring these specialists in if they cant be found locally. These people get a premium (why shouldn't they) and can enjoy the financial disparity you talk about. I don't see what's wrong with that. They are afterall headhunted and will perform a function that will usually generate far more value than they cost. An office worker no mater how hard he works or how many hours he works can only create so much value - so they are paid accordingly. These 'expert' expats (the ones that still get the high salaries and perks) can in theory at least generate far more value - and are paid accordingly..economics __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 21st June 2007 at 10:29.
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21st June 2007, 10:12	#20 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Moving To Singapore Quote: (Originally Posted by Burrendive) Hey Guys, Cheers for the info. Will throw in the tanks so. Have some more sorb on order aswell. DrMike will drop a line when in town. 45 mins flight to undived caves sounds sweet. Still will be hard to let go of my leaky dry suit diving in slurry filled caves . . Bring the suit. Those caves can get cold on long hangs. Got some expeditions to Sra Keow and area caves coming up this year and next your welcome to join. Do you like French food __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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