So it really is kinda like OC's progression.....

Genesis

Something I've noticed as I build time on the K1......

I made some minor changes to the configuration recently, and so got back in the pool to make sure it was all ok prior to going out tomorrow for some dives.

Anyway, I got all geared up, got in the pool, and felt a bit heavy.

That's odd, I thought..... so I started removing weight.

I was in the pool with just my rashguard on (to keep the straps on the plate from digging into my skin).

When I started this exercise, teaching myself how to dive this beast, that meant needing quite a bit of weight to sink. Wellllllll.... not any more. I was able to dive the K1 with zero weight - no belt at all - meaning that the rig is just about perfectly neutral.

Kind of amusing, if you think about it, because it shouldn't matter. There's nowhere for "trapped air" to go; its either in the counterlungs or in YOUR lungs, so I'd think it wouldn't be like on OC, where as you get more comfortable you need less weight to sink.

Bad guess.

I suspect that its more a matter of being able to more accurately calibrate minimum-loop volume and maintain it, but I may be wrong there.

I've noticed something else too as I build time, which is that breath control does work for fine tuning buoyancy - its just a much finer adjustment than it is on OC, and its more of a trim change than true buoyancy shift.

Anyway, I thougth I'd drop that out there..... interesting musings as I get more and more comfortable with the unit. It has yet to force me off the loop in anger; I'm not sure if that's good or bad (I'm actually starting to believe that it works, which might be a bad thing )

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PCDiver

And it also eats into your diluent supply if you use it too often. Try to dive without, unless you absolutely need it (e.g. video, ...).

Gibbon

just imagine what you could have saved by paying for some instruction

Steve

Giggles

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Genesis

Uh, no, I'm not talking about hitting the dil button. I'm talking about the shift in trim (which, if you're MOVING, results in a shift in buoyancy) that results from breathing patterns - it does on OC too, and is (subconsciously) how you adjust buoyancy on OC once you "get it") - its just different on CC, not absent.

Uh, not much, given that (1) you can't buy a card for a homebuild, irrespective of desire to do so, and (2) I've yet to see an OC instructor talk about the finer points of buoyancy and trim control; perhaps its different with CCR instructors, but I doubt it.

I suspect all I'd have become is poorer AND I'd have learned things that might not apply ot the specific rig I dive.

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
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http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

OceanOpportunity

good observations, and they are indeed accurate. you might note that on most military rigs, there are no BC's...loop volume is relied on for achieving the desired buoyancy. It's not meant to be fiddled with like a newbie OC diver, but if weighted properly, and the counterlung is slightly larger than your minimum loop volume, it can be dived slightly fuller on the bottom and buoyancy should be dead on...makes diving ccr even MORE attractive whe taking advantage of these buoyancy characteristics!

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Genesis

Well the obvious difference is that the potential maximum buoyancy shift is far smaller than on OC, since there's no huge volume of gas that "disappears" during use.

On the other hand you have to account for the potential consumpton of your bail gas (and weight for it), which results (on a rec rig where "loss of personnel" is not acceptable) in a significant shift.

Absent that and no exposure suit shift (e.g. a drysuit being dove constant-volume, or a rash guard which doesn't compress) you could dive with the rig balanced and no BC without any problem at all. However, most of my diving is done with a wetsuit, so there is a shift - its just not anywhere near what it was with an OC rig.

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

trob09

The notion that you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not out there. All of my instructors - starting with basic OW in the late '70s discussed breathing as a component of buoyancy. Each rung up the ladder got more into detail on the topic.

I've suggested this before, but if you approach a relationship (any relationship - but for the purposes of this discussion an instructor/student relationship) with the clear and open attitude of 'you're just going to rip me off and I won't learn anything' then one should expect to find exactly that.

Genesis

You can discuss how balance works on a bicycle too but there is only one way to learn how it actually works and become able to implement it without conscious effort.

Irrespective of how much money you spend, IMHO the amount of time it requires for you to learn these sorts of things to a level of subconscious control will not change materially.

It is simply amazing how people will try to defend the cost of teaching something that ultimately is a matter of transfer to one's subconscious, when a 15 second explanation is all that you will REALLY benefit from; the rest requires "time in use" and there is no substitute for that.

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

Gibbon

the risk with being self taught is that you will spend ages learning detail of one or more issues, whilst other areas of knowledge will not even occur to you

your point about no cards for home builds is hard to dispute, however the lack of instruction dealing with bouyancy is complete nonsence - hands up who did not learn anything about bouyancy on their first rebreather course oh well that will be you Carl.