Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers?

PCDiver

Guys, I still don't see why a eCCR is more dangerous than an mCCR, if trained properly and if operated properly. If you monitor your PPO2 on a eCCR, why should it be more dangerous?

Also, because a couple of people on the Internet suddenly started preaching about how good mCCR is, that doesn't mean that the trend suddenly changed from eCCR to mCCR. Most people still seem to go for Inspirations or Evolutions.

Ok, there is a new kid on the block, the rEvo. And it had great publicity on various forums and fares (Good job Paul). But that still does not change the fact that there are way more eCCRs out there and that the sales of mCCRs aren't even close to those of eCCRs. Just capacity wise, there is nobody that can match the build capacity of APD. That would be a bad thing, if the Vision was crap, but it is a great unit.

Would I like an O2 leaky valve for my Vision? Yes, but only as a backup in case of problems with the electronics on long (expensive) trips. Never happened so far (touch wood). I wouldn't use it as fail safe underwater. Two combined systems adds to the complexity and creates in my opinion too many failure points.

PC

abowie

Fascinating thread.

I must admit that I am beginning to feel that the HUD may be the single most important piece of kit in this whole debate.

My feeling about the eCCR has always been that how it kills you is by lulling you into believing that it's looking after you, then you don't notice when it fails and you die without realising it. The HUD might ameliorate this issue to some degree by making monitoring literally more "in your face" with the eCCR.

Personally I'll be fitting a HUD to the next CCR I use, before I dive it. But it'll still be an mCCR.

I still think that the numbers speak for themselves. 5000 Inspos out there; 5 deaths per year. Many fewer Megs and 7 to 10 deaths in the last 2 or so years. If I'm missing something here please someone explain to me why.

I can sort of see the arguments supporting the "best tool for the job" scenario too, but I'm not sold on them. I'm a photographer primarily, and I can cope with OC or mCCR and still use a camera. I like caving too, and my hero Rick Stanton, who must have spent more time in zero viz in uncharted deep caves than anyone, uses a KISS.

As a final observation; going entirely against my arguments in this thread there are over 5000 Inspos and derivatives out there, which must be over 80% of all CCRs in recreational hands. Why the hell is that, pray tell?

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Andrew Bowie

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silent running

Dave, I thought it was clear from the context of my statement that I was talking about the MCCR SP wandering all over the place during a stressful dive, since I mentioned that most of my dives have periods of high stress-strong currents, unfamiliar exploratory dive sites...

I don't doubt that plenty of sucessful dives have been done with MCCRs without inline PO2 monitoring/realtime deco calc. Never said otherwise. My point was related to Mark's experience and my own observation diving with buddies on KISSes and KISSed Dolphins in those stressful conditions. Nor do I doubt that MCCRs can be set up properly/flow biased for high task loading, high exertion dives. But I like my SP only HUD ECCR and it's real time flexability in handling both periods of high exertion/task loading and the periods where I duck out of the current, lay perfectly still and watch the show...and my PO2 of course.

silent running

I agree totally Andrew. I wouldn't do my kind of diving without one, or really any kind of CCR diving, they really do make system awareness very easy to maintain.

I think the first thing that got peoples attention was the nice appearance of the Inspo-fancy cowling, nice tooling overall. Remember, when the Inspo first came out, the few other units available looked very "agricultural" as you all say down under. Then a potential buyer notices that Buddy/AP is by far the biggest company and the marketing/add budget kicks in, then comes the "I-know-a-bunch-of-guys-who-love-theirs" factor and away they go... -Andy

schford

Ye I think AP got first mover status like Amazon and eBay! Coupled with CE marking means they are first on the block plus have a truly global market.

Gill - when I wrote my article on Minimising Rebreather Fatalities - http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...atalities.html I did a lot of work digging into causes and speaking to as many people as I could and I could not identify a single one. Nor did anyone on Rebreather World point out one to me either publically or privately.

I think the flying manually safety rate is that it forces people to know what goes on at any time so they don't assume everything is ok and something comes and bites them in the asse.

Stuart

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bletso

Stuart,

Well thought out and presented article. Just read it. I do like the printed check list, though I have never done one. Being tech oriented, I follow a rigid, sequential procedure. When interupted, I grumble, go back several steps or start over.

BTW, my wife interrupted me one day whilst I was changing cells and recalibrating my PO2 monitor. Well, I had to scrub the dive the next day as all the screws were not tightened down and it flooded both chambers of my PO2 monitor at 2 mfw.

DON'T get interrupted. Check lists (written or mental) are absolutely important. Most tech divers know not to interrupt another whilst checking their gear, its OC recreational divers who give me the most pause.

Now on to the topic at hand....

I still don't believe in HUD's. Even the rEVO is in my mind not the panacea. It lacks the total two channel isolation unless I carry a second one. Not going to happen.

Dave has a point, and I completely agree, the primary is the one you look at all the time. But the HUD and meter section are driven from the same housing. If it goes down you loose the HUD and meter for whatever cells you have hooked to it. Acceptable would be to carry a second, but that then gets to bulky and too many lines hanging.

My unit may not be a HDD, but it is almost in view all the time and all it takes is 1 second to pull it out and view it.

It may be I am just an old fart and too fixed in my ways. I do see some nice things in some of their designs, but they are not just for me. So let's just agree not to disagree.

For you chaps who insist on ECCR in caves, well I am a cave diver and I do dive my kiss/dolphin in caves, in current, and low vis. Yes, sometimes both at the same time. I have had problems, and obviously all of them were solved then or I wouldn't be here. As Dave has pointed out, PO2's don't climb and plummet in seconds unless shallow and you are using inappropriate diluents. You have time to monitor things if you keep your whits about you. As Stuart pointed out, Panic is probably anyone's worst enemy, not your unit.

MCCR, MCCR, MCCR, MCCR!!!!

Dale

Mark Chase

I sort of agree that a functioning ECCR is a safer unit to dive than a MCCR. Basically I could take a total novice on a 100m dive with an ECCR and if the unit worked OK we would all be fine (ignoring buoyancy issues obviously) If I tried to take the same novice on a 40m dive on a MCCR he'd be dead.


I hope my stand point is logical rather than the ex smoker type evangelistic approach. Driving a MCCR builds a deep appreciation of how a CCR works and performs. It builds a knowledge of how your every action during the dive affects the way the unit performs. This is very educational and I feel despite a couple of years on ECCR I am actually learning a lot.

It is only safer if your in tune with the unit and on a MCCR its pay attention or die so there is little option. On ECCR it is easy to fall into the trap of just letting it do it's job.

Maybe its fair to say that a very attentive diver with intuitive knowledge of his unit is safer on ECCR than on MCCR. On the other hand maybe removing several layers of techno wizardry from between the diver and the 02 Cells is the safe way to dive. Who knows?

Certainly at my mediocre level of skill the MCCR is much harder to dive well than a ECCR. On ECCR I used to say the hard bit was buoyancy buoyancy and buoyancy. On MCCR its maintaining a stable range of PP02

ATB

Mark Chase

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Dave Sutton

I would add "a quality eCCR" to the statement to make it:

"I still don't see why a quality eCCR is more dangerous than a mCCR, if trained properly and operated properly"


And therein lies the issue: You need ALL THREE VARIABLES to be "TRUE" *100% of the time* in order for these to be "as safe". Yes, it can be done, but it's not "as likely"....


Break down the three:

(1): There is no doubt that there are patently *bad* rebreathers and (more commonly) *bad* rebreather electronics packages on the market. Far too many electronics makers have used the general public for their testing. This is really shameful. There are two commonly available packages that I DO NOT WANT ON MY BOAT if I can avoid them. You can guess what they are.

(2): Training is, to say it politely, "Variable". I am *shocked* at the lack of knowlage that is often exhibited by so-called "Trained" eCCR divers here at times. And, I hate to say it, the vast majority of the "Hmmm.... Trained??" eCCR divers that I have interacted with are diving YBOD's. There's just something mass-market about the way these have been sold and trained here, and the results are that many (not all, not most, *many*) of the people carrying these around in this neck of the woods frighten me. These are the folks who saw one at the LDS, asked about rebreathers, and bought "whatever they sold there" and thought it was like diving a twinset... Don't laugh: There are hundreds of them, and the fact that *more* of them do not die is a huge testament to the hardware. I am VERY encouraged that APD has taken steps to draw down the number of instructors and to increase the quality of instructors, but the fact remains that there are *instructors* on these rigs here locally that I am not comfortable with as *divers*, never mind as instructors.

(3): Operated Properly: Once again, I see HUGE variability in proficiency in operating these. Witness the guys that I see coming aboard for 80 foot dives (and who never dive deeper) with 10% diluent, and who can not even carry on a basic conversation on why this is, to be polite, "suboptimal". Once again I am *terrified* for these folks. Not because of what they *do*, but of what they do not know.


Perhaps the selection of a mCCR is a self-selection into a higher intellectual involvement with the sport? Those divers that pass by "features" in a catalog and select something that "on paper" seems to be less capable are those who have actually thought about it a lot? Maybe it's just an intellectual/personal involvement bell curve being exhibited? Just dunno, but there is *something* to it..... the statistics are pretty clear.

Bottom line: I see *well designed* mCCR's being dived by *divers with adequate training in them*, and who *operate them properly* with a higher degree of confidence than I see any group of eCCR divers. To make the point very clear: When I see a KISS diver (or, to be frank, a homebuilt mCCR diver) loading his gear on the boat I do not worry about them one bit. When I see a YBOD coming aboard, I make sure that I have a little conversation with the diver about rebreather diving in general to make sure they have their act together. All other rigs fit somewhere in between these extremes in my "Captains Worry Index".


Dave (speaking from the viewpoint of a Dive Boat Captain who worries a lot about the people entrusted to his care...)


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jptaylor9

Don't beat about the bush Dave, come on be man enough & name them....

JT

Dave Sutton

I DO NOT want this devolving into "this is good and that is crap" so let's not go there. The issue is HUMAN FACTORS, not technical ones. Neither of the controllers I am concerned with is available *in the version I am concerned with* for new purchase at the moment. Good enough? They are legacy products, albeit still commonly used.

Plus, they are not what you dive.... . I'd be perfectly happy with a Vision *if* it also had a 4th independant cell.... call me a professional skeptic.


Dave