Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers?

**Dave Sutton** · 8th June 2007, 13:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso)

It goes to the root of human nature. Most HUD.s, rEVO included, are really secondary displays. Raw info has had decisions made on status etc. When it dispays different pulse rates, colors, etc, these indications are based on internal settings the machine makes, not you. i. e. rEvo assumes that if the PO2 is under .5 for 5 minutes, it shuts down.

Hi again Dale,

I think you're working under some misconceptions regarding the rEvodream. I'd be pleased to give you some hands-on time with one if you like. In fact, you can come for a trial of the entire rEvo if you want to come up for a day.

The rEvodream HUD is *not* a secondary display, it's an "alternate primary means of display" of the same information presented on the handset. Heck, you can turn the HUD off and tuck it away if you like. You *could* cut off the cable and toss it if you like. In any event, the rEvodream is just a darned good single or dual cell PP02 metering system. A single shared-system should *never* be used for a CCR without a second *completely independant* means of PP02 monitoring. Two schemes make sense: A dual rEvodream setup (as provided on the rEvo), or backup of a single rEvodream with a single cell PP02 monitor either of the simple display sort, or a deco computer. I'm building up a pair of KISS Modified Azimuths right now using the single rEvodream and a 3rd cell on a KISS Display right now in fact.

As for the auto shut-off, feel free to disable it. It's user selectable. All that means is that you need to shut it off manually after diving.

You're like me: Reading about this stuff, it all seems too complex and counterintuitive. Hands on it all makes sense after about 90 seconds. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the fact that I can be struggling on the surface in a current, swimming hard to the tag-line, and clambering up the ladder and handing off stage bottles and STILL be able to know that my PP02 is viable hands-free. That's a HUGE advantage to the mCCR diver... and the HUD has become an indespensible part of my kit. I love it.

And, BTW: Going to another thread regarding ADV's... when the PP02 gets to GREEN+AMBER on the surface... I do a nose vent and an ADV triggering inhale. With *sensibly selected* diluents, this brings the PP02 *up* making 02 addition in this high-gain environment hands free even with a mCCR.

Best,

Dave

UWshutterbug · 8th June 2007, 13:52

There are certainly plenty of valid points that can made for both eCCr’s and mCCR’s.

As for eCCr’s being by nature, prone to inspire operator complacency
. Well…, when I started into CCR’s, it was with the eCCR variety. By the time I had completed my 20th hour on CCR (ocean dives, mind you) I had experienced one solenoid failure in the closed position and one in the open, 6 cell warnings (mostly due to moisture build up on the O2 cells, and a CPU crash.

From my 25-plus years of dealing with marine electronics in boats, underwater photographic equipment, dive computers and now CCR’s, the one thing experience has taught me is that all forms of electronics are deathly allergic to salt water.

For clarification, I don’t consider myself a tech diver. I use tech so I can dive the way I like.

For simplicity, the characteristics of mCCR diving works for me. And I can say this after completing more than 50 hours (again, ocean dives) with my KISS sport without going through nowhere near the trouble and aggravation I had before. But hey, that’s me.

Going back to the title of the original post “Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers?” I will ad this; the interest in CCR's among the recreational diving community is growing. To help readers explore this, we have begun a campaign of sorts in our third release of the Underwater Journal (www.underwaterjournal.com) to address as much of the myths and realities as possible in diving CCR’s.

***schford*** · 8th June 2007, 14:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso)

Constat monitoring your PO2 is important to spot certain failure modes. I don't want to wait until the unit is telling me, OH, BTW, you have a problem.

I think you are spot on with that statement and is why the Shearwater HUD is so strong - you KNOW what all 3 cells are reading....

**Dave Sutton** · 8th June 2007, 14:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I think you are spot on with that statement and is why the Shearwater HUD is so strong - you KNOW what all 3 cells are reading....

Which functionality is duplicated with the (Revodream, old Smithers HUD boards, etc, for manual rebreathers and by the HH and 'Boris displays on ECCR's). The functionality is not "Sherwater Specific". It's a function of designing to one of the two HUD schemes: (1): An "Alarm" HUD (green = good, red = check handsets) as is used on the Colkan system (Eagle and Mark-15/16 upgrade) V/S scheme (2): "Display of actual PP02 by some scheme" as is used by Bruce on the Sherwater (Smithers Coding) and by Paul on the rEvodream (rEvodream Coding).

In my opinion, I prefer scheme (2) to scheme (1), and as of today we have several systems to choose from, the Sherwater being one, and the rEvodream being another. Having used both Smithers-Coding and rEvodream coding on HUD's, I prefer the latter, but that's just personal preference. Both work just fine. I strongly suggest that any potential buyer try both before purchase, as 5 minutes in the hand is worth 5 hours of cyber-play (don't go there.....

)

Interestingly enough, the first "HUD using scheme 2" was really the old primary on the Mark-15, which had a bar of lights for high, low, and on setpoint. It was just too large to physically mount on the DSV (although it does fit with some surgi-tube on the top of the exhale hose if desired), but when worn on the back of the wrist did *exactly* the same thing, as it is in the field of view anytime your hand is held out in front of you. The functionality of that system is still great, and the upcoming mini-primary from Colkan will duplicate the function while placing the display on top of the DSV.

Dave

**Gill Envy** · 8th June 2007, 16:16

Stuart, et all, as I understand from Bruce, the HUD is totally independent and is programmed to require hook up to all three cells. any thoughts on how to fit a fourth cell into the Copis head for the Shearwater GF. I could leave the HUD and stock handset access to the three cells but I just can't figure out how to deal with the 4th cell issue. I would go back to the idea of putting a 4th cell in the counter lung but I'd really like to keep it all in the head. You've played around with all this quite a bit, do you have any suggestions? Perhaps you're not so worked up about isolation, if not, why not?

gill

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I think you are spot on with that statement and is why the Shearwater HUD is so strong - you KNOW what all 3 cells are reading....

**Dave Sutton** · 8th June 2007, 16:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

any thoughts on how to fit a fourth cell into the Copis head for the Shearwater GF. I could leave the HUD and stock handset access to the three cells but I just can't figure out how to deal with the 4th cell issue.

(1): There's no elegent way to add a 4th cell to a Meg. You either cut the inhale hose and add a "T" or add a P-Port into the inhale counterlung. Neither is optimal.

(2): Solution: Bin the Shearwater idea. Use three cells: Run (2) to a rEvodream for 2-cell HUD and handset, and the 3rd to a totally independant VR-3 and you'll have all you ever wanted..... it'll be a perfect setup.

Dave

***schford*** · 8th June 2007, 16:20

You know I was just thinking this through - if you split the cells across multiple monitoring devices - I see more work....

1 - 2 lots of calibration to do
2 - 2 lots of equipment to view
3 - Double the chance of a failure that will abort your dive.
4 - More equipment connected to you.

and if one of the components fail then you should call the dive, so by having 2 sets of everything it does not give you any more redundancy and let you carry on the dive - I suppose you could dive on 2 cells but then the chances of them both failing low go up compared to 3 failing low and I dont think you should take that risk.

Though I suppose that it would alert you if you had been a plonker and completely screwed up the Calibration of a single device which you would not get with only one device. And with a standard handset and a Shearwater at least you could completely replace all the electronics on a multi day trip if needed - but it seems an awful lot of outlay for something that is unlikely to happen.

I also think whether the evodream HUD is classed as a primary depends on what you mean by Primary - for me Primary means it shows me the exact PPO2 of every cell.

Stuart

***schford*** · 8th June 2007, 16:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Stuart, et all, as I understand from Bruce, the HUD is totally independent and is programmed to require hook up to all three cells. any thoughts on how to fit a fourth cell into the Copis head for the Shearwater GF. I could leave the HUD and stock handset access to the three cells but I just can't figure out how to deal with the 4th cell issue. I would go back to the idea of putting a 4th cell in the counter lung but I'd really like to keep it all in the head. You've played around with all this quite a bit, do you have any suggestions? Perhaps you're not so worked up about isolation, if not, why not?

gill

You know I think that would be a great way to go.

With a COPIS head you can insert a 4th cell into a Meg easily. You use one of the Spare ports (PG 7 fitting) to run in a cable and connect to a 4th cell - you have to fabricate a holder (plenty of room as only one battery in COPIS head) and it is before the Scrubber rather than being after the scrubber. But it does end up being neat self contained and in the head.

Plus if one of your hansets failed on a mutli day trip you still have the other one - something you would not have with a solution that maxd out at 1 or 2 cells.

***schford*** · 8th June 2007, 16:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Which functionality is duplicated with the (Revodream, old Smithers HUD boards, etc, for manual rebreathers and by the HH and 'Boris displays on ECCR's). (CUT) )

I dont think that functionality is duplicated as The Shearwater has 3 LEDS and shows you the actual PPO2 of any cell at any given time. It also shows you when cells age and start to lag and is a good warner when things start going south on a cell.

I guess it is how you view it though - In my view all types of Green for Good shows you is when something is right or wrong with your PPO2 and not with specific cells sure by changing flashes(like the URM) or adding another color (like the evodream) it shows you when the average is wrong or slightly out but not for individual cells. As such It is a secondary and all is does is alert you to look at a handset to ascertain where the problem is....

BTW I am happy enough using my URM as a secondary on my COPIS and just accepting I need to look at handset some times - I do it regularly anyway it kinda reassures me :-)

**Gill Envy** · 8th June 2007, 16:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

...controllers are just like a regulator if it fails you are done with it this dive...

gill you said that you where disappointed that the inspro would not allow you dive the with a broken solenoid. my question is why would you want to risk your wifes life with a piece of broken equipment to save a dive. you would let her enter the water with a free flowing regulator, no. so why would you allow her to dive with a broken controller. by the way if you could convice my ex to dive with you go for it. as long as i am out of the country.

rick

Rick, let me be clear here. I do not condone diving broken gear in which you can not verify that it can do what you are expecting it to do. If it fails during a dive you "abort and sort on the surface". that's my matto. The Vision/Evo runs you through a start up check list, which actually I think is a really good thing as it verifies that it's circuits are working properly and you are there to watch over to be sure you agree. If there is a fault in the solenoid coil in particular (which is what happenned to us at the beginning of our big annual trips two years in a row) I do think it would be worth allowing the diver to put the unit in manual mode and go through the test again, seeing if cell callibration by manual injection of O2 can be attained. It certainly wasn't a matter of being cheap and i'm not sure where you got that from. But this is a bit moot, because the better solution would have been to add a shearwater or URM or rEvo as a back up that could be used as a primary for flying manually, leaving the vision off. This is where I was headed but after 8 days of diving OC while my wife dove my unit, we were just both too pissed to get passed it... it was time for a change and we both new that.

8th June 2007, 13:50	#31 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future? Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso) It goes to the root of human nature. Most HUD.s, rEVO included, are really secondary displays. Raw info has had decisions made on status etc. When it dispays different pulse rates, colors, etc, these indications are based on internal settings the machine makes, not you. i. e. rEvo assumes that if the PO2 is under .5 for 5 minutes, it shuts down. Hi again Dale, I think you're working under some misconceptions regarding the rEvodream. I'd be pleased to give you some hands-on time with one if you like. In fact, you can come for a trial of the entire rEvo if you want to come up for a day. The rEvodream HUD is not a secondary display, it's an "alternate primary means of display" of the same information presented on the handset. Heck, you can turn the HUD off and tuck it away if you like. You could cut off the cable and toss it if you like. In any event, the rEvodream is just a darned good single or dual cell PP02 metering system. A single shared-system should never be used for a CCR without a second completely independant means of PP02 monitoring. Two schemes make sense: A dual rEvodream setup (as provided on the rEvo), or backup of a single rEvodream with a single cell PP02 monitor either of the simple display sort, or a deco computer. I'm building up a pair of KISS Modified Azimuths right now using the single rEvodream and a 3rd cell on a KISS Display right now in fact. As for the auto shut-off, feel free to disable it. It's user selectable. All that means is that you need to shut it off manually after diving. You're like me: Reading about this stuff, it all seems too complex and counterintuitive. Hands on it all makes sense after about 90 seconds. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the fact that I can be struggling on the surface in a current, swimming hard to the tag-line, and clambering up the ladder and handing off stage bottles and STILL be able to know that my PP02 is viable hands-free. That's a HUGE advantage to the mCCR diver... and the HUD has become an indespensible part of my kit. I love it. And, BTW: Going to another thread regarding ADV's... when the PP02 gets to GREEN+AMBER on the surface... I do a nose vent and an ADV triggering inhale. With sensibly selected diluents, this brings the PP02 up making 02 addition in this high-gain environment hands free even with a mCCR. Best, Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
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8th June 2007, 13:52	#32 (permalink)
UWshutterbug Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 155	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? There are certainly plenty of valid points that can made for both eCCr’s and mCCR’s. As for eCCr’s being by nature, prone to inspire operator complacency . Well…, when I started into CCR’s, it was with the eCCR variety. By the time I had completed my 20th hour on CCR (ocean dives, mind you) I had experienced one solenoid failure in the closed position and one in the open, 6 cell warnings (mostly due to moisture build up on the O2 cells, and a CPU crash. From my 25-plus years of dealing with marine electronics in boats, underwater photographic equipment, dive computers and now CCR’s, the one thing experience has taught me is that all forms of electronics are deathly allergic to salt water. For clarification, I don’t consider myself a tech diver. I use tech so I can dive the way I like. For simplicity, the characteristics of mCCR diving works for me. And I can say this after completing more than 50 hours (again, ocean dives) with my KISS sport without going through nowhere near the trouble and aggravation I had before. But hey, that’s me. Going back to the title of the original post “Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers?” I will ad this; the interest in CCR's among the recreational diving community is growing. To help readers explore this, we have begun a campaign of sorts in our third release of the Underwater Journal (www.underwaterjournal.com) to address as much of the myths and realities as possible in diving CCR’s.
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8th June 2007, 14:35	#33 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future? Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso) Constat monitoring your PO2 is important to spot certain failure modes. I don't want to wait until the unit is telling me, OH, BTW, you have a problem. I think you are spot on with that statement and is why the Shearwater HUD is so strong - you KNOW what all 3 cells are reading.... __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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8th June 2007, 14:48	#34 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future? Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I think you are spot on with that statement and is why the Shearwater HUD is so strong - you KNOW what all 3 cells are reading.... Which functionality is duplicated with the (Revodream, old Smithers HUD boards, etc, for manual rebreathers and by the HH and 'Boris displays on ECCR's). The functionality is not "Sherwater Specific". It's a function of designing to one of the two HUD schemes: (1): An "Alarm" HUD (green = good, red = check handsets) as is used on the Colkan system (Eagle and Mark-15/16 upgrade) V/S scheme (2): "Display of actual PP02 by some scheme" as is used by Bruce on the Sherwater (Smithers Coding) and by Paul on the rEvodream (rEvodream Coding). In my opinion, I prefer scheme (2) to scheme (1), and as of today we have several systems to choose from, the Sherwater being one, and the rEvodream being another. Having used both Smithers-Coding and rEvodream coding on HUD's, I prefer the latter, but that's just personal preference. Both work just fine. I strongly suggest that any potential buyer try both before purchase, as 5 minutes in the hand is worth 5 hours of cyber-play (don't go there..... ) Interestingly enough, the first "HUD using scheme 2" was really the old primary on the Mark-15, which had a bar of lights for high, low, and on setpoint. It was just too large to physically mount on the DSV (although it does fit with some surgi-tube on the top of the exhale hose if desired), but when worn on the back of the wrist did exactly the same thing, as it is in the field of view anytime your hand is held out in front of you. The functionality of that system is still great, and the upcoming mini-primary from Colkan will duplicate the function while placing the display on top of the DSV. Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 8th June 2007 at 14:55.
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8th June 2007, 16:16	#35 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future? Stuart, et all, as I understand from Bruce, the HUD is totally independent and is programmed to require hook up to all three cells. any thoughts on how to fit a fourth cell into the Copis head for the Shearwater GF. I could leave the HUD and stock handset access to the three cells but I just can't figure out how to deal with the 4th cell issue. I would go back to the idea of putting a 4th cell in the counter lung but I'd really like to keep it all in the head. You've played around with all this quite a bit, do you have any suggestions? Perhaps you're not so worked up about isolation, if not, why not? gill Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I think you are spot on with that statement and is why the Shearwater HUD is so strong - you KNOW what all 3 cells are reading.... __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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8th June 2007, 16:18	#36 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) any thoughts on how to fit a fourth cell into the Copis head for the Shearwater GF. I could leave the HUD and stock handset access to the three cells but I just can't figure out how to deal with the 4th cell issue. (1): There's no elegent way to add a 4th cell to a Meg. You either cut the inhale hose and add a "T" or add a P-Port into the inhale counterlung. Neither is optimal. (2): Solution: Bin the Shearwater idea. Use three cells: Run (2) to a rEvodream for 2-cell HUD and handset, and the 3rd to a totally independant VR-3 and you'll have all you ever wanted..... it'll be a perfect setup. Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 8th June 2007 at 16:21.
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8th June 2007, 16:20	#37 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? You know I was just thinking this through - if you split the cells across multiple monitoring devices - I see more work.... 1 - 2 lots of calibration to do 2 - 2 lots of equipment to view 3 - Double the chance of a failure that will abort your dive. 4 - More equipment connected to you. and if one of the components fail then you should call the dive, so by having 2 sets of everything it does not give you any more redundancy and let you carry on the dive - I suppose you could dive on 2 cells but then the chances of them both failing low go up compared to 3 failing low and I dont think you should take that risk. Though I suppose that it would alert you if you had been a plonker and completely screwed up the Calibration of a single device which you would not get with only one device. And with a standard handset and a Shearwater at least you could completely replace all the electronics on a multi day trip if needed - but it seems an awful lot of outlay for something that is unlikely to happen. I also think whether the evodream HUD is classed as a primary depends on what you mean by Primary - for me Primary means it shows me the exact PPO2 of every cell. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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8th June 2007, 16:22	#38 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Stuart, et all, as I understand from Bruce, the HUD is totally independent and is programmed to require hook up to all three cells. any thoughts on how to fit a fourth cell into the Copis head for the Shearwater GF. I could leave the HUD and stock handset access to the three cells but I just can't figure out how to deal with the 4th cell issue. I would go back to the idea of putting a 4th cell in the counter lung but I'd really like to keep it all in the head. You've played around with all this quite a bit, do you have any suggestions? Perhaps you're not so worked up about isolation, if not, why not? gill You know I think that would be a great way to go. With a COPIS head you can insert a 4th cell into a Meg easily. You use one of the Spare ports (PG 7 fitting) to run in a cable and connect to a 4th cell - you have to fabricate a holder (plenty of room as only one battery in COPIS head) and it is before the Scrubber rather than being after the scrubber. But it does end up being neat self contained and in the head. Plus if one of your hansets failed on a mutli day trip you still have the other one - something you would not have with a solution that maxd out at 1 or 2 cells. __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use Last edited by schford : 8th June 2007 at 16:44.
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8th June 2007, 16:25	#39 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Which functionality is duplicated with the (Revodream, old Smithers HUD boards, etc, for manual rebreathers and by the HH and 'Boris displays on ECCR's). (CUT) ) I dont think that functionality is duplicated as The Shearwater has 3 LEDS and shows you the actual PPO2 of any cell at any given time. It also shows you when cells age and start to lag and is a good warner when things start going south on a cell. I guess it is how you view it though - In my view all types of Green for Good shows you is when something is right or wrong with your PPO2 and not with specific cells sure by changing flashes(like the URM) or adding another color (like the evodream) it shows you when the average is wrong or slightly out but not for individual cells. As such It is a secondary and all is does is alert you to look at a handset to ascertain where the problem is.... BTW I am happy enough using my URM as a secondary on my COPIS and just accepting I need to look at handset some times - I do it regularly anyway it kinda reassures me :-) __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use Last edited by schford : 8th June 2007 at 16:41. Reason: poor spelling
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8th June 2007, 16:59	#40 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr) ...controllers are just like a regulator if it fails you are done with it this dive... gill you said that you where disappointed that the inspro would not allow you dive the with a broken solenoid. my question is why would you want to risk your wifes life with a piece of broken equipment to save a dive. you would let her enter the water with a free flowing regulator, no. so why would you allow her to dive with a broken controller. by the way if you could convice my ex to dive with you go for it. as long as i am out of the country. rick Rick, let me be clear here. I do not condone diving broken gear in which you can not verify that it can do what you are expecting it to do. If it fails during a dive you "abort and sort on the surface". that's my matto. The Vision/Evo runs you through a start up check list, which actually I think is a really good thing as it verifies that it's circuits are working properly and you are there to watch over to be sure you agree. If there is a fault in the solenoid coil in particular (which is what happenned to us at the beginning of our big annual trips two years in a row) I do think it would be worth allowing the diver to put the unit in manual mode and go through the test again, seeing if cell callibration by manual injection of O2 can be attained. It certainly wasn't a matter of being cheap and i'm not sure where you got that from. But this is a bit moot, because the better solution would have been to add a shearwater or URM or rEvo as a back up that could be used as a primary for flying manually, leaving the vision off. This is where I was headed but after 8 days of diving OC while my wife dove my unit, we were just both too pissed to get passed it... it was time for a change and we both new that. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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