Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers?

***schford*** · 13th June 2007, 18:09

Or the fact that currently ONLY discplined divers dive mCCR and if we had thousands like on eCCR we would probably see more than the one fatality that we have had...

Says Stuart who has a COPIS head

as well as his Shearwater head!

**Gill Envy** · 13th June 2007, 18:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Or the fact that currently ONLY discplined divers dive mCCR and if we had thousands like on eCCR we would probably see more than the one fatality that we have had...

Says Stuart who has a COPIS head

as well as his Shearwater head!

so, which points can we agree on, for diving recreational limits:

1. mCCR's are more field servicable and are a viable option for recreational divers, especially those who put reliability above ease of use?

2. That true redundant mCCR back up system makes any rebreather more reliable, and is highly recommended for traveling?

3. While saying that mCCR's are safer is inherently misleading, it appears that driving manually is a good habit that instills being engaged more consistently with the one's rebreather, regardless of type?

4. If diving eCCR, taking steps to counter the tendency of being lulled into complacency is especially critical?

Ben Field · 14th June 2007, 08:34

Gill,

I think this is a valid debate but seems to be going abit circular and in danger of

IMVHO.

I said it previously but over analysis is almost as dangerous as no analysis!

The numbers of rebreathers in total make statistical analysis dodgy at best, the lack of MCCR incidents could be pure chance.

I really think you ought to choose a unit that you are happy with, happy to service, setup, prep, drive, to fault find on and importantly happy with the manufacturers service.

Your subsequent diving of the unit will define its safety. (IMVHO as usual)

decoweenie · 14th June 2007, 08:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

I really think you ought to choose a unit that you are happy with, happy to service, setup, prep, drive, to fault find on and importantly happy with the manufacturers service.

Ben,

I think he and his wife already had decided, and waiting on their units delivery and cross-training.

The way I see it is (and only IMVVHO as well), he is convincing himself that they made the right decision and fishing for confirmation...

At the end of the day, any unit will only be as safe and reliable as you want to make it! And I have set up my eCCR that I could dive as mCCR if the controller breaks on trips.

Dutchy · 14th June 2007, 11:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

If original assumption is... an idiot is going to die on either unit
And mCCR has no fatality
Then mCCR divers can't idiots
But it was shown some mCCR divers are idiots
Therefore original assumption mus be wrong

No, we can't agree...

Are you a Vulcan by any chance?????

decoweenie · 14th June 2007, 12:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Are you a Vulcan by any chance?????

Nanoo! Nanoo!

... Ooops, wrong alien...

Live long and prosper!

**Gill Envy** · 14th June 2007, 16:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

Gill,

I think this is a valid debate but seems to be going abit circular and in danger of

IMVHO.

I said it previously but over analysis is almost as dangerous as no analysis!

The numbers of rebreathers in total make statistical analysis dodgy at best, the lack of MCCR incidents could be pure chance.

Agreed, i'm done with the analysis (for now

). It's interesting though, it's where folks have kept the focus, despite my several attempts at talking about how mCCR's may be more appropriate for recreational divers than many folks think for other important reasons... like reliability and field servicability.

Divers crossing over from recreational OC to CCR seem most likely to make the misconception that more gadgets and gismos make a rebreather safer and more reliable. My hope is that by sharing my experience, that that is not necessarily true, that those who are new to rebreathers might take a harder look at mCCR's and double check their needs and priorities and get whichever rebreather is truly appropriate to them.

It may sound totally nuts after all the goings on about statistics and safer habits, but reliability stands out in my mind as the outstanding reason to go with mCCR's. A year from now it will be interesting if I feel the same way.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

I really think you ought to choose a unit that you are happy with, happy to service, setup, prep, drive, to fault find on and importantly happy with the manufacturers service.
(IMVHO as usual)

If only we could tell all this before we buy... you don't know what you don't know, until you have already made the committment.

Actually I was very happy with my EVO and very impressed with AP's service, it was just too frequent on my wifes unit:rolleyes.

Mark Chase · 14th June 2007, 16:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

reliability stands out in my mind as the outstanding reason to go with mCCR's. A year from now it will be interesting if I feel the same way.

It is the ONLY reasion I went MCCR and like you Ill see in a year. I havent sold the ECCR yet and dont intend to even think about selling till November.

Quote:

If only we could tell all this before we buy... you don't know what you don't know, until you have already made the committment.

Amen to that.

ATB

Mark Chase

silent running · 14th June 2007, 18:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

At the end of the day, any unit will only be as safe and reliable as you want to make it! And I have set up my eCCR that I could dive as mCCR if the controller breaks on trips.

Very smart Phi, that's the way all ECCRs should come in stock form.

**Gill Envy** · 14th June 2007, 19:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Ben,

I think he and his wife already had decided, and waiting on their units delivery and cross-training.

The way I see it is (and only IMVVHO as well), he is convincing himself that they made the right decision and fishing for confirmation...

no doubt there is some of that...conrfirmation! i want to know what know one can tell me, is this the right direction for me...time will tell.

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

At the end of the day, any unit will only be as safe and reliable as you want to make it! And I have set up my eCCR that I could dive as mCCR if the controller breaks on trips.

a most excellent point!

13th June 2007, 18:09	#181 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,562	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Or the fact that currently ONLY discplined divers dive mCCR and if we had thousands like on eCCR we would probably see more than the one fatality that we have had... Says Stuart who has a COPIS head as well as his Shearwater head! __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

13th June 2007, 18:37	#182 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Or the fact that currently ONLY discplined divers dive mCCR and if we had thousands like on eCCR we would probably see more than the one fatality that we have had... Says Stuart who has a COPIS head as well as his Shearwater head! so, which points can we agree on, for diving recreational limits: 1. mCCR's are more field servicable and are a viable option for recreational divers, especially those who put reliability above ease of use? 2. That true redundant mCCR back up system makes any rebreather more reliable, and is highly recommended for traveling? 3. While saying that mCCR's are safer is inherently misleading, it appears that driving manually is a good habit that instills being engaged more consistently with the one's rebreather, regardless of type? 4. If diving eCCR, taking steps to counter the tendency of being lulled into complacency is especially critical? __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 13th June 2007 at 18:41.
(Offline)

14th June 2007, 08:34	#183 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,621	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Gill, I think this is a valid debate but seems to be going abit circular and in danger of IMVHO. I said it previously but over analysis is almost as dangerous as no analysis! The numbers of rebreathers in total make statistical analysis dodgy at best, the lack of MCCR incidents could be pure chance. I really think you ought to choose a unit that you are happy with, happy to service, setup, prep, drive, to fault find on and importantly happy with the manufacturers service. Your subsequent diving of the unit will define its safety. (IMVHO as usual) __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

14th June 2007, 08:50	#184 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) I really think you ought to choose a unit that you are happy with, happy to service, setup, prep, drive, to fault find on and importantly happy with the manufacturers service. Ben, I think he and his wife already had decided, and waiting on their units delivery and cross-training. The way I see it is (and only IMVVHO as well), he is convincing himself that they made the right decision and fishing for confirmation... At the end of the day, any unit will only be as safe and reliable as you want to make it! And I have set up my eCCR that I could dive as mCCR if the controller breaks on trips. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

14th June 2007, 11:51	#185 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 769	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) If original assumption is... an idiot is going to die on either unit And mCCR has no fatality Then mCCR divers can't idiots But it was shown some mCCR divers are idiots Therefore original assumption mus be wrong No, we can't agree... Are you a Vulcan by any chance????? __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

14th June 2007, 16:24	#187 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) Gill, I think this is a valid debate but seems to be going abit circular and in danger of IMVHO. I said it previously but over analysis is almost as dangerous as no analysis! The numbers of rebreathers in total make statistical analysis dodgy at best, the lack of MCCR incidents could be pure chance. Agreed, i'm done with the analysis (for now ). It's interesting though, it's where folks have kept the focus, despite my several attempts at talking about how mCCR's may be more appropriate for recreational divers than many folks think for other important reasons... like reliability and field servicability. Divers crossing over from recreational OC to CCR seem most likely to make the misconception that more gadgets and gismos make a rebreather safer and more reliable. My hope is that by sharing my experience, that that is not necessarily true, that those who are new to rebreathers might take a harder look at mCCR's and double check their needs and priorities and get whichever rebreather is truly appropriate to them. It may sound totally nuts after all the goings on about statistics and safer habits, but reliability stands out in my mind as the outstanding reason to go with mCCR's. A year from now it will be interesting if I feel the same way. Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) I really think you ought to choose a unit that you are happy with, happy to service, setup, prep, drive, to fault find on and importantly happy with the manufacturers service. (IMVHO as usual) If only we could tell all this before we buy... you don't know what you don't know, until you have already made the committment. Actually I was very happy with my EVO and very impressed with AP's service, it was just too frequent on my wifes unit:rolleyes. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 14th June 2007 at 19:48.
(Offline)

14th June 2007, 16:29	#188 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) reliability stands out in my mind as the outstanding reason to go with mCCR's. A year from now it will be interesting if I feel the same way. It is the ONLY reasion I went MCCR and like you Ill see in a year. I havent sold the ECCR yet and dont intend to even think about selling till November. Quote: If only we could tell all this before we buy... you don't know what you don't know, until you have already made the committment. Amen to that. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

14th June 2007, 18:13	#189 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) At the end of the day, any unit will only be as safe and reliable as you want to make it! And I have set up my eCCR that I could dive as mCCR if the controller breaks on trips. Very smart Phi, that's the way all ECCRs should come in stock form.
(Offline)

14th June 2007, 19:58	#190 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: Maybe eCCR's really aren't the wave of the future for recreational divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Ben, I think he and his wife already had decided, and waiting on their units delivery and cross-training. The way I see it is (and only IMVVHO as well), he is convincing himself that they made the right decision and fishing for confirmation... no doubt there is some of that...conrfirmation! i want to know what know one can tell me, is this the right direction for me...time will tell. Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) At the end of the day, any unit will only be as safe and reliable as you want to make it! And I have set up my eCCR that I could dive as mCCR if the controller breaks on trips. a most excellent point! __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode