Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving?

Mark Chase · 9th March 2007, 08:08

I am struggling to find a clear outline of the prerequisites fro cave training.

What i want to know is as a Trimix qualified CCR diver what level of training we need to start at to do full cave?

I believe as trimix qualified divers we don't have to do cavern diver as we are qualified in an OHE so we can go straight into Cave diver?

Can someone please let me know what the prerequisites are and which organizations qualify you for CCR cave?

Many Thanks

Mark Chase

seafox · 9th March 2007, 08:37

IANTD:

1985-2006 "21 Years of Excellence"

Closed Circuit Rebreather Cave Diver

A. Purpose

2. 1. This Program is designed to train divers in safe cave diving while using a CCR.

B. Prerequisites
2. 1. If entering through modular route, must be qualified as Introductory Cave Diver with proof of a minimum of 50 logged dives.
3. 2. If not qualified as introductory cave diver must have proof of 100 dives or sufficient experience doing technical dives to satisfy the instructor that the student has the ability and knowledge to continue into this level of training.
4. 3. Must have 20 dives and 30 hours of dive time on the CCR to be used in the cave course.
5. 4. Must be a minimum of 18 years of age.

C. Program Content
2. 1. All lectures completed with IANTD Course-specific Slides pertaining to the theory in the IANTD Cave Diver Student Kit and IANTD CCR Normoxic Trimix Diver Student Kit.
3. 2. This Program must include a minimum of 600 minutes of cave bottom time completed within at least 10 cave dives.
4. 3. For students already qualified as Introductory Cave Diver or IANTD Advanced /Technical Wreck Diver, this Program must include a minimum of 500 minutes of cave bottom time within a minimum of 8 cave dives.

NOTE: The combined cave bottom time from Introductory Cave Diver and Cave Diver Programs must total at least 600 minutes, even if the bottom time is met first. A minimum of 8 cave dives using CCR must be logged. Instructors are not required to give credit for experience or other qualification levels and should do so only if the skill level of the diver meets the Instructor’s satisfaction.

4. For those who are already OC Cave Divers this Program must include a confined water session and a minimum of 400 minutes of cave bottom time, completed within at least 4 cave dives. All CCR cave specific skills must be completed.

5. Environmental conditions allowing, a minimum of three different caves must be included in a Cave Program. In event of flooding and other special circumstances, the three-cave requirement may be waived if approved by IAND, Inc./IANTD World Headquarters or the local Licensee of the Region the Program is conducted in.

6. To complete the course within the minimum specified dives, students must have an average of 8 out of 10 points on the watermanship evaluations. With 2 or more additional dives, the student may graduate from the course with an overall average score of 6 points.

7. Land drills:
1. a. Use of lines / line arrows.
2. b. Blacked out drills.
3. c. Lost diver drills / broken lines / line gaps.

D. Equipment Requirements
2. 1. IANTD Cave Diver Student Kit and IANTD CCR Normoxic Trimix Diver Student Kit.
3. 2. All students must be taught the concept of gas matching based on oxygen metabolism.
4. 3. Bailout adequate to allow 1 ½ divers to exit the cave on OC must be carried by the dive team.
5. 4. A stage decompression cylinder containing oxygen is recommended for deco as a back up to the system.
6. 5. Bailout stages must be configured to ensure easy hand off to an out of gas diver. A 5 foot 1.5 meter hose is recommended.
7. 6. Each gas source must have its own dedicated submersible pressure gauge.
8. 7. A primary BCD is required. Back flotation is recommended.
9. 8. Dive tables, depth gauge and dive timer or a dive computer.
10. 9. Two reels: one Primary (cave) guide reel and one (cavern or gap) safety reel.
11. 10. One Primary light with adequate lighting characteristic to meet the accepted standard in cave diving and two secondary lights (flashlight type).
12. 11. Three (3) line arrows.
13. 12. A backup cutting tool is recommended.

E. Program Limits
2. 1. There may be no more than 3 students per Instructor on any dives and no more than 2 students per Instructor on dives conducted to depths greater than 130 fsw (39 msw).
3. 2. In most cases, no dives may be conducted to depths greater than 130 fsw (39 msw). When conditions warrant it, Cave Diver Programs may be conducted to a maximum depth of 200 fsw (60 msw), provided the students are qualified as CCR Normoxic

1. te 12/1/2006 Trimix Divers and have equivalent experience of at least 25 CCR dives to depths between 160 fsw (48 msw) and 200 fsw (60 msw).
2. 3. When appropriate conditions are available (i.e., depths between 130 fsw [39 msw] and 200 fsw [60 msw]), the Normoxic Trimix Program may be taught in combination with the Cave course, provided all cave dives deeper than 130 fsw (39 msw) are conducted using mixtures specified in the Normoxic Trimix Program. Qualified Normoxic Trimix Divers may be trained in caves at depths between 100 fsw (30 msw) and 200 fsw (60 msw). Qualified Trimix Divers may be trained in caves on Trimix at depths between 130 fsw (39 msw) and 300 fsw / 91 msw provided there are no alternative locations.

NOTE: On training dives below 130 fsw (39 msw), written permission must be given by the IANTD Headquarters Training Director.

4. Oxygen partial pressure may not exceed 1.30 ATA during the working portion of the dives, nor exceed 1.40 ATA during the decompression portion of the dives.
5. All dives must be completed within both the IANTD oxygen CNS% and OTU limits.
6. All appropriate safety or required decompression stops must be performed.

F. Water Skills Development
1. 1. A confined water session must be completed before conducting any cave dives.
2. 2. Swim with equipment to be used in Program until comfortable with it.
3. 3. Demonstrate an ability to respond to a single-bladder BCD failure by the two methods listed below. (Students using gear configurations that prevent accomplishment of these two skills will be required to wear a redundant BCD. Students who already have a redundant BCD or dry suit may use one of these alternates after attempting perform the methods without the use of the alternative.)
4. a. Completely deflate BCD and swim while maintaining buoyancy control for at least two minutes.
5. b. Completely deflate BCD, ascend safely to the surface, and remain afloat for at least three minutes.

NOTE: If at any time the student starts to over-exert, or if it is obvious that the skill cannot be accomplished, the instructor is to ensure that the BCD is inflated.

5. Perform a pre-dive "S" (safety) drill prior to starting dive. Check all equipment for proper function. Check equipment of each dive buddy. Ascertain each team member is familiar with use and location of dive system components.
6. Perform an in-water "S" (safety) drill.
1. a. Leak-check each team member’s equipment.
2. b. Breathe underwater from the CCR and the bailout stage (s) / all regulators to ensure proper functioning.
3. c. Perform light checks.
4. d. Perform valve shutdowns combined with switches to bailout cylinder, including handing off bailout cylinders at least once each day as part of the S drills.
5. e. Buddies should check that all valves are back in proper position at end of drill.
6. f. On a first dive with a new partner, perform a gas sharing drill by handing off stages.
7. Communicate the oxygen gas turn around point.
8. Confined or OW: Swim 60 feet (18 meters) while simulating an out-of-gas situation, then switch to bailout cylinder, remain at rest for three breaths, and swim for 10 minutes at a normal swim rate of approximately 75 feet (23 meters) a minute (static water swim rate).
9. Perform all skills other than direct ascents from the CCR Normoxic water skills all CCR emergency skills must be preformed in cave in addition to confined water
10. Repeat above skill with divers handing off bailout stage cylinder.
11. Confined or OW: Two divers 50 feet (15 meters) apart must swim along a line circuit with eyes closed not taking a breath, while slowly exhaling until they meet. Upon meeting switch to the bailout stage combined with touch contact is to be performed until the line circuit is completed.
12. Repeat above with diver handing off bailout cylinder.
13. Develop proficiency in a variety of propulsion techniques including cave frog kick, modified flutter kick, shuffle kick, and pull and glide technique.
14. Demonstrate proficiency in use of reels and lines.
15. During a cave dive, at a point after turning the dive, perform a gas bailout drill exiting the cave for a reasonable distance / time. Exercise is to commence with Instructor at some point randomly selecting the out-of-gas diver, who must then go to his bailout stage cylinder, then at some point have the buddies exchange bailout cylinders simulating that the diver who had bailed out had used 50% of the bailout stage cylinder. This drill is to be repeated on different dives until all students have performed the drill.

1985-2006 "21 Years of Excellence" 16. On a cave dive, with eyes closed or lights off simulate blacked out cave conditions maintaining contact with buddy and dive line using touch communications.
17. Repeat previous drill, except at some point the Instructor will choose one of the divers to simulate a loop failure. The diver with the failed loop must communicate the problem to a buddy via touch contact, and switch to his/her bailout cylinder. This skill must be performed for a reasonable distance. Repeat this skill until all students have been the diver with the loop failure.
18. Perform lost diver drills.
19. Perform lost line drills. All emergency drills are to be repeated until the students are proficient and the instructor is satisfied with the performance.
20. Demonstrate either on a cave dive or confined water the ability to drop and recover a stage cylinder. This may be the tank used as a decompression tank or an actual penetration stage cylinder.
21. Conduct a traverse, gap and circuit dive. If conditions do not allow this possibility then it is to be simulated.
22. It is recommended that the student attempt to exit the cave with eyes closed or lights off without the use of a line. Instructor must prevent the student from getting into a silt-out away from the line or any other adverse situation during this drill.
23. On at least three dives, the student must simulate a solenoid failure and, take corrective action.
24. On at least three (3) occasions, a loop failure drill must be completed and on at least one drill the diver must remain on the bailout stage cylinder for a minimum of 10 minutes. The student is to note the bailout gas used and distance covered. At the end of the dive compute how far under the same conditions could the diver have traveled on the bailout cylinder. Also how much total gas it would take to bailout to the exit point of the cave. Then compute how much oxygen and or other gas would be needed to complete the decompression
25. Perform a SCR bailout for at least 10 minutes while on a cave dive.
26. Repeat all drills and skills from the CCR Skills tables while on cave dives.

Janos · 9th March 2007, 08:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I am struggling to find a clear outline of the prerequisites fro cave training.

What i want to know is as a Trimix qualified CCR diver what level of training we need to start at to do full cave?

I believe as trimix qualified divers we don't have to do cavern diver as we are qualified in an OHE so we can go straight into Cave diver?

Can someone please let me know what the prerequisites are and which organizations qualify you for CCR cave?

Just a quick follow up on that as it's something I'm vaguely interested in too [1], but how long would a proper CCR Cave course take?

Janos

[1] - I'm vaguely interested in many things

***EBT*** · 9th March 2007, 10:09

mark,

First comment, trimix divers are not OHE qualified.

The agencies that can cert ccr cave are to my knowledge currently;

IANTD (standards are available online)
TDI (standards are available online)
CDG (ticket is non kit/technique specific.You can dive an old tescos carrier bag with a chunk of chalk in it, if you're lucky enough to get chalk.. eeee, when I were a lad...)

There'll be lots more no doubt, but as ever its more about the instructor than anything else. Hell, even those aussies dive into dark holes from time to time... I'll avoid getting dragged into the bunfight over some of the US agencies cave CCR aspirations at the moment...

Most agencies split their courses roughly into cavern/limited cave/full cave. Some then add on super tecky cavey thing with bells on in different flavours too. Normally you can negotiate a combined cave course, but personally I'd suggest starting with OC cave, since its your fall back position anyway.

Anyway, if you're not sure you're going to be comfy, do a cavern/intro first, that way you know if you'll like it with only a small cash outlay.

I'd still recommend the same guys for a CCR cave course as I did months ago when you first sniffed; Martin Robson or Phill Short. This isnt a smear on any US based instructors, I just dont know them as well and havent seen them teaching.

/Zak

PS. Cave is a demanding course (or at least it should be!), you will be stretched and have to work damn hard.... don't underestimate it!

One thing I will say

lizardland · 9th March 2007, 10:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

CDG (ticket is non kit/technique specific.You can dive an old tescos carrier bag with a chunk of chalk in it, if you're lucky enough to get chalk.. eeee, when I were a lad...)

And it's probably the hardest of them all to get. Or at least the longest process. And what other cert does everyone else get to vote on whether or not you should be given the qual?

Quote:

But personally I'd suggest starting with OC cave, since its your fall back position anyway.

And as I keep harping on about, a CCR cave course teaches you to dive CCR caves. Or put simply, how to make cave diving difficult for yourself in most caves < 20m deep or with restrictions. See, I've given you the benefit of the doubt, you were hindered by your equipment profile, not by anything else getting in the way. Pie boy...

Quote:

I'd still recommend the same guys for a CCR cave course as I did months ago when you first sniffed; Martin Robson or Phill Short. This isnt a smear on any US based instructors, I just dont know them as well and havent seen them teaching.

I'd recommend the Orlowskis in Florida. Absolutely brilliant instructors, can't recommend them enough. Although they aren't for everyone, if you're easily offended by strong language, sexual references, insults and political incorrectness then maybe they aren't for you. Personally, I felt quite at home

Cheers,

Stuart

/Zak

PS. Cave is a demanding course (or at least it should be!), you will be stretched and have to work damn hard.... don't underestimate it!

One thing I will say[/quote]

gallathan · 9th March 2007, 10:38

nacd and nss-cds as well as iantd / tdi do cave qualifications. nacd / nss-cds seem to be most useful in terms of getting into cave sites as they're most recognised round the world. Some places offer dual cert. My understanding is that you're NOT OHE qualifified as mod 3. You can't do MOD1 in an OHE, but you MAY elect to do combined mod2 / mod3 and cave training...

Theres no such thing as cavern, intro, apprentice cave diver ccr.
Why - because Open circuit these limit you to single tank, 1/6 of gas supply, no stages etc. No such thing with the Rebreather, you could pass the course and be hours into a cave with the capability of most RB's. So you need a course about a week long and MUST do ALL the cave skills, right up to open curcuit full cave equivalent, and all the CCR bailout / use skills too, because when you qualify you can go as far into a cave as the Rebreather can take you.
With no prevoius cave experience, most are recommended to do the course open curcuit first to get the nav / line laying / comms skills etc, then do the course closed circuit. I believe the course can be done in about 5 days to a week if you're perfect at everything, ut you might want to allow 2 weeks, for re-doing dives, kit issues / delays etc. Jut my 2 cents worth / limited understanding

bletso · 9th March 2007, 10:56

It seems to me that this was thrashed about not so long ago.

Abe Davis or equivalent. (Demonstrated comfort in caves with a failure to win the Darwin award.)

CCR training with probably 50 or so hours in the OW environment.

CCR Cave orientation covering and demonstating the different approach for emergency protocol;

1. with OC divers
2. with SCR and CCR divers

I realize that most divers want to rush in and do it all. A kind of short cut to hell. Most may, by luck of the draw avoid Murphy's revenge. But then....

There are of course different paths. If the diver has, say 100 hrs/100 dives
CCR experience and is demonstrably more comfortable in CCR than OC, then let him take the cave course in CCR. He would have to realize that to then do the cave in OC, he would not be qualified. Emergency protocol os different.

If I seem a little extreme, well, I am. I have had dive buddies who pushed their training envelop and did not return.

To me the experience level of a diver is actually more important than the actual C-card. I have dove with many <idiot savants>, but only once.

Dale

CharlieT · 9th March 2007, 11:03

Martin Robson qualified two friends on their Inspiration Visions this week at Stoney and I joined in for two of the four days. They were both very happy with their training and how Martin went about it.

Martin is enormously impressive underwater (he did my IANTD Mod 3 at Dorothea last summer), patient, very thorough, very knowledgeable.

He's always willing to answer endless questions so you feel encouraged to ask them. Some technical instructors make you feel stupid for asking in the 1st place.

He is a very experienced cave diver both in Florida and in France.

You can reach him on 07932 735619. He's around until 14 March and then abroad training.

Charlie

Duncan Price · 9th March 2007, 11:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

Just a quick follow up on that as it's something I'm vaguely interested in too, but how long would a proper CCR Cave course take?

Five minutes from my instructor was sufficient for my first CCR OH solo penetration in Linley Caverns - 400 m in to 40 m depth.

The CDG is looking at reintroducing a CCR requirement to its syllabus after it was dropped from its training schedule in the 1960's (at least it was mentioned at the 2005 AGM).

Stuart Morrison is quite right about the pointlessness of limiting yourself to CCR for cave diving. To my mind there is little incremental step from being competant to dive caves on open circuit and dive a rebreather in open water to being able to combine the two. Unless you are doing some quite extreme cave diving then CCR's are not necessary or desirable (potentially very inconvenient) when you can quite safely do the whole dive on your open circuit bailout.

lizardland · 9th March 2007, 11:34

Mark,

thought you'd have been doing GUE Cave 1 anyway?

9th March 2007, 08:08	#1 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? I am struggling to find a clear outline of the prerequisites fro cave training. What i want to know is as a Trimix qualified CCR diver what level of training we need to start at to do full cave? I believe as trimix qualified divers we don't have to do cavern diver as we are qualified in an OHE so we can go straight into Cave diver? Can someone please let me know what the prerequisites are and which organizations qualify you for CCR cave? Many Thanks Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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9th March 2007, 08:37	#2 (permalink)
seafox 02ptima Instructor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TORONTO, CANADA -Have "02ptima" will travel! Posts: 172	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? IANTD: 1985-2006 "21 Years of Excellence" Copyright ©2006 by IAND, Inc. / IANTD All Rights Reserved 83 "The Leader in Diving Education" Closed Circuit Rebreather Cave Diver A. Purpose 1. This Program is designed to train divers in safe cave diving while using a CCR. B. Prerequisites 1. If entering through modular route, must be qualified as Introductory Cave Diver with proof of a minimum of 50 logged dives. 2. If not qualified as introductory cave diver must have proof of 100 dives or sufficient experience doing technical dives to satisfy the instructor that the student has the ability and knowledge to continue into this level of training. 3. Must have 20 dives and 30 hours of dive time on the CCR to be used in the cave course. 4. Must be a minimum of 18 years of age. C. Program Content 1. All lectures completed with IANTD Course-specific Slides pertaining to the theory in the IANTD Cave Diver Student Kit and IANTD CCR Normoxic Trimix Diver Student Kit. 2. This Program must include a minimum of 600 minutes of cave bottom time completed within at least 10 cave dives. 3. For students already qualified as Introductory Cave Diver or IANTD Advanced /Technical Wreck Diver, this Program must include a minimum of 500 minutes of cave bottom time within a minimum of 8 cave dives. NOTE: The combined cave bottom time from Introductory Cave Diver and Cave Diver Programs must total at least 600 minutes, even if the bottom time is met first. A minimum of 8 cave dives using CCR must be logged. Instructors are not required to give credit for experience or other qualification levels and should do so only if the skill level of the diver meets the Instructor’s satisfaction. 4. For those who are already OC Cave Divers this Program must include a confined water session and a minimum of 400 minutes of cave bottom time, completed within at least 4 cave dives. All CCR cave specific skills must be completed. 5. Environmental conditions allowing, a minimum of three different caves must be included in a Cave Program. In event of flooding and other special circumstances, the three-cave requirement may be waived if approved by IAND, Inc./IANTD World Headquarters or the local Licensee of the Region the Program is conducted in. 6. To complete the course within the minimum specified dives, students must have an average of 8 out of 10 points on the watermanship evaluations. With 2 or more additional dives, the student may graduate from the course with an overall average score of 6 points. 7. Land drills: a. Use of lines / line arrows. b. Blacked out drills. c. Lost diver drills / broken lines / line gaps. D. Equipment Requirements 1. IANTD Cave Diver Student Kit and IANTD CCR Normoxic Trimix Diver Student Kit. 2. All students must be taught the concept of gas matching based on oxygen metabolism. 3. Bailout adequate to allow 1 ½ divers to exit the cave on OC must be carried by the dive team. 4. A stage decompression cylinder containing oxygen is recommended for deco as a back up to the system. 5. Bailout stages must be configured to ensure easy hand off to an out of gas diver. A 5 foot 1.5 meter hose is recommended. 6. Each gas source must have its own dedicated submersible pressure gauge. 7. A primary BCD is required. Back flotation is recommended. 8. Dive tables, depth gauge and dive timer or a dive computer. 9. Two reels: one Primary (cave) guide reel and one (cavern or gap) safety reel. 10. One Primary light with adequate lighting characteristic to meet the accepted standard in cave diving and two secondary lights (flashlight type). 11. Three (3) line arrows. 12. A backup cutting tool is recommended. E. Program Limits 1. There may be no more than 3 students per Instructor on any dives and no more than 2 students per Instructor on dives conducted to depths greater than 130 fsw (39 msw). 2. In most cases, no dives may be conducted to depths greater than 130 fsw (39 msw). When conditions warrant it, Cave Diver Programs may be conducted to a maximum depth of 200 fsw (60 msw), provided the students are qualified as CCR Normoxic Revision Da Copyright ©2006 by IAND, Inc. / IANTD All Rights Reserved 84 "The Leader in Diving Education" te 12/1/2006 Trimix Divers and have equivalent experience of at least 25 CCR dives to depths between 160 fsw (48 msw) and 200 fsw (60 msw). 3. When appropriate conditions are available (i.e., depths between 130 fsw [39 msw] and 200 fsw [60 msw]), the Normoxic Trimix Program may be taught in combination with the Cave course, provided all cave dives deeper than 130 fsw (39 msw) are conducted using mixtures specified in the Normoxic Trimix Program. Qualified Normoxic Trimix Divers may be trained in caves at depths between 100 fsw (30 msw) and 200 fsw (60 msw). Qualified Trimix Divers may be trained in caves on Trimix at depths between 130 fsw (39 msw) and 300 fsw / 91 msw provided there are no alternative locations. NOTE: On training dives below 130 fsw (39 msw), written permission must be given by the IANTD Headquarters Training Director. 4. Oxygen partial pressure may not exceed 1.30 ATA during the working portion of the dives, nor exceed 1.40 ATA during the decompression portion of the dives. 5. All dives must be completed within both the IANTD oxygen CNS% and OTU limits. 6. All appropriate safety or required decompression stops must be performed. F. Water Skills Development 1. A confined water session must be completed before conducting any cave dives. 2. Swim with equipment to be used in Program until comfortable with it. 3. Demonstrate an ability to respond to a single-bladder BCD failure by the two methods listed below. (Students using gear configurations that prevent accomplishment of these two skills will be required to wear a redundant BCD. Students who already have a redundant BCD or dry suit may use one of these alternates after attempting perform the methods without the use of the alternative.) a. Completely deflate BCD and swim while maintaining buoyancy control for at least two minutes. b. Completely deflate BCD, ascend safely to the surface, and remain afloat for at least three minutes. NOTE: If at any time the student starts to over-exert, or if it is obvious that the skill cannot be accomplished, the instructor is to ensure that the BCD is inflated. 5. Perform a pre-dive "S" (safety) drill prior to starting dive. Check all equipment for proper function. Check equipment of each dive buddy. Ascertain each team member is familiar with use and location of dive system components. 6. Perform an in-water "S" (safety) drill. a. Leak-check each team member’s equipment. b. Breathe underwater from the CCR and the bailout stage (s) / all regulators to ensure proper functioning. c. Perform light checks. d. Perform valve shutdowns combined with switches to bailout cylinder, including handing off bailout cylinders at least once each day as part of the S drills. e. Buddies should check that all valves are back in proper position at end of drill. f. On a first dive with a new partner, perform a gas sharing drill by handing off stages. 7. Communicate the oxygen gas turn around point. 8. Confined or OW: Swim 60 feet (18 meters) while simulating an out-of-gas situation, then switch to bailout cylinder, remain at rest for three breaths, and swim for 10 minutes at a normal swim rate of approximately 75 feet (23 meters) a minute (static water swim rate). 9. Perform all skills other than direct ascents from the CCR Normoxic water skills all CCR emergency skills must be preformed in cave in addition to confined water 10. Repeat above skill with divers handing off bailout stage cylinder. 11. Confined or OW: Two divers 50 feet (15 meters) apart must swim along a line circuit with eyes closed not taking a breath, while slowly exhaling until they meet. Upon meeting switch to the bailout stage combined with touch contact is to be performed until the line circuit is completed. 12. Repeat above with diver handing off bailout cylinder. 13. Develop proficiency in a variety of propulsion techniques including cave frog kick, modified flutter kick, shuffle kick, and pull and glide technique. 14. Demonstrate proficiency in use of reels and lines. 15. During a cave dive, at a point after turning the dive, perform a gas bailout drill exiting the cave for a reasonable distance / time. Exercise is to commence with Instructor at some point randomly selecting the out-of-gas diver, who must then go to his bailout stage cylinder, then at some point have the buddies exchange bailout cylinders simulating that the diver who had bailed out had used 50% of the bailout stage cylinder. This drill is to be repeated on different dives until all students have performed the drill. Copyright ©2006 by IAND, Inc. / IANTD All Rights Reserved 85 "The Leader in Diving Education" 1985-2006 "21 Years of Excellence" 16. On a cave dive, with eyes closed or lights off simulate blacked out cave conditions maintaining contact with buddy and dive line using touch communications. 17. Repeat previous drill, except at some point the Instructor will choose one of the divers to simulate a loop failure. The diver with the failed loop must communicate the problem to a buddy via touch contact, and switch to his/her bailout cylinder. This skill must be performed for a reasonable distance. Repeat this skill until all students have been the diver with the loop failure. 18. Perform lost diver drills. 19. Perform lost line drills. All emergency drills are to be repeated until the students are proficient and the instructor is satisfied with the performance. 20. Demonstrate either on a cave dive or confined water the ability to drop and recover a stage cylinder. This may be the tank used as a decompression tank or an actual penetration stage cylinder. 21. Conduct a traverse, gap and circuit dive. If conditions do not allow this possibility then it is to be simulated. 22. It is recommended that the student attempt to exit the cave with eyes closed or lights off without the use of a line. Instructor must prevent the student from getting into a silt-out away from the line or any other adverse situation during this drill. 23. On at least three dives, the student must simulate a solenoid failure and, take corrective action. 24. On at least three (3) occasions, a loop failure drill must be completed and on at least one drill the diver must remain on the bailout stage cylinder for a minimum of 10 minutes. The student is to note the bailout gas used and distance covered. At the end of the dive compute how far under the same conditions could the diver have traveled on the bailout cylinder. Also how much total gas it would take to bailout to the exit point of the cave. Then compute how much oxygen and or other gas would be needed to complete the decompression 25. Perform a SCR bailout for at least 10 minutes while on a cave dive. 26. Repeat all drills and skills from the CCR Skills tables while on cave dives. __________________ Protect the SHARKS! Excellence is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision to see obstacles as opportunities. Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards!
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9th March 2007, 08:56	#3 (permalink)
Janos "Two Sheds" Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: East Surrey Posts: 581	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I am struggling to find a clear outline of the prerequisites fro cave training. What i want to know is as a Trimix qualified CCR diver what level of training we need to start at to do full cave? I believe as trimix qualified divers we don't have to do cavern diver as we are qualified in an OHE so we can go straight into Cave diver? Can someone please let me know what the prerequisites are and which organizations qualify you for CCR cave? Just a quick follow up on that as it's something I'm vaguely interested in too [1], but how long would a proper CCR Cave course take? Janos [1] - I'm vaguely interested in many things __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed
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9th March 2007, 10:09	#4 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,855	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? mark, First comment, trimix divers are not OHE qualified. The agencies that can cert ccr cave are to my knowledge currently; IANTD (standards are available online) TDI (standards are available online) CDG (ticket is non kit/technique specific.You can dive an old tescos carrier bag with a chunk of chalk in it, if you're lucky enough to get chalk.. eeee, when I were a lad...) There'll be lots more no doubt, but as ever its more about the instructor than anything else. Hell, even those aussies dive into dark holes from time to time... I'll avoid getting dragged into the bunfight over some of the US agencies cave CCR aspirations at the moment... Most agencies split their courses roughly into cavern/limited cave/full cave. Some then add on super tecky cavey thing with bells on in different flavours too. Normally you can negotiate a combined cave course, but personally I'd suggest starting with OC cave, since its your fall back position anyway. Anyway, if you're not sure you're going to be comfy, do a cavern/intro first, that way you know if you'll like it with only a small cash outlay. I'd still recommend the same guys for a CCR cave course as I did months ago when you first sniffed; Martin Robson or Phill Short. This isnt a smear on any US based instructors, I just dont know them as well and havent seen them teaching. /Zak PS. Cave is a demanding course (or at least it should be!), you will be stretched and have to work damn hard.... don't underestimate it! One thing I will say __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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9th March 2007, 10:29	#5 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,189	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) CDG (ticket is non kit/technique specific.You can dive an old tescos carrier bag with a chunk of chalk in it, if you're lucky enough to get chalk.. eeee, when I were a lad...) And it's probably the hardest of them all to get. Or at least the longest process. And what other cert does everyone else get to vote on whether or not you should be given the qual? Quote: But personally I'd suggest starting with OC cave, since its your fall back position anyway. And as I keep harping on about, a CCR cave course teaches you to dive CCR caves. Or put simply, how to make cave diving difficult for yourself in most caves < 20m deep or with restrictions. See, I've given you the benefit of the doubt, you were hindered by your equipment profile, not by anything else getting in the way. Pie boy... Quote: I'd still recommend the same guys for a CCR cave course as I did months ago when you first sniffed; Martin Robson or Phill Short. This isnt a smear on any US based instructors, I just dont know them as well and havent seen them teaching. I'd recommend the Orlowskis in Florida. Absolutely brilliant instructors, can't recommend them enough. Although they aren't for everyone, if you're easily offended by strong language, sexual references, insults and political incorrectness then maybe they aren't for you. Personally, I felt quite at home Cheers, Stuart /Zak PS. Cave is a demanding course (or at least it should be!), you will be stretched and have to work damn hard.... don't underestimate it! One thing I will say[/quote] __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f**ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler Last edited by lizardland : 9th March 2007 at 10:32.*
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9th March 2007, 10:38	#6 (permalink)
gallathan New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Laleham, Middlesex, England, UK Posts: 43	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? nacd and nss-cds as well as iantd / tdi do cave qualifications. nacd / nss-cds seem to be most useful in terms of getting into cave sites as they're most recognised round the world. Some places offer dual cert. My understanding is that you're NOT OHE qualifified as mod 3. You can't do MOD1 in an OHE, but you MAY elect to do combined mod2 / mod3 and cave training... Theres no such thing as cavern, intro, apprentice cave diver ccr. Why - because Open circuit these limit you to single tank, 1/6 of gas supply, no stages etc. No such thing with the Rebreather, you could pass the course and be hours into a cave with the capability of most RB's. So you need a course about a week long and MUST do ALL the cave skills, right up to open curcuit full cave equivalent, and all the CCR bailout / use skills too, because when you qualify you can go as far into a cave as the Rebreather can take you. With no prevoius cave experience, most are recommended to do the course open curcuit first to get the nav / line laying / comms skills etc, then do the course closed circuit. I believe the course can be done in about 5 days to a week if you're perfect at everything, ut you might want to allow 2 weeks, for re-doing dives, kit issues / delays etc. Jut my 2 cents worth / limited understanding
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9th March 2007, 10:56	#7 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 222	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? It seems to me that this was thrashed about not so long ago. Abe Davis or equivalent. (Demonstrated comfort in caves with a failure to win the Darwin award.) CCR training with probably 50 or so hours in the OW environment. CCR Cave orientation covering and demonstating the different approach for emergency protocol; 1. with OC divers 2. with SCR and CCR divers I realize that most divers want to rush in and do it all. A kind of short cut to hell. Most may, by luck of the draw avoid Murphy's revenge. But then.... There are of course different paths. If the diver has, say 100 hrs/100 dives CCR experience and is demonstrably more comfortable in CCR than OC, then let him take the cave course in CCR. He would have to realize that to then do the cave in OC, he would not be qualified. Emergency protocol os different. If I seem a little extreme, well, I am. I have had dive buddies who pushed their training envelop and did not return. To me the experience level of a diver is actually more important than the actual C-card. I have dove with many <idiot savants>, but only once. Dale
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9th March 2007, 11:03	#8 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Martin Robson qualified two friends on their Inspiration Visions this week at Stoney and I joined in for two of the four days. They were both very happy with their training and how Martin went about it. Martin is enormously impressive underwater (he did my IANTD Mod 3 at Dorothea last summer), patient, very thorough, very knowledgeable. He's always willing to answer endless questions so you feel encouraged to ask them. Some technical instructors make you feel stupid for asking in the 1st place. He is a very experienced cave diver both in Florida and in France. You can reach him on 07932 735619. He's around until 14 March and then abroad training. Charlie
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9th March 2007, 11:04	#9 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 336	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) Just a quick follow up on that as it's something I'm vaguely interested in too, but how long would a proper CCR Cave course take? Five minutes from my instructor was sufficient for my first CCR OH solo penetration in Linley Caverns - 400 m in to 40 m depth. The CDG is looking at reintroducing a CCR requirement to its syllabus after it was dropped from its training schedule in the 1960's (at least it was mentioned at the 2005 AGM). Stuart Morrison is quite right about the pointlessness of limiting yourself to CCR for cave diving. To my mind there is little incremental step from being competant to dive caves on open circuit and dive a rebreather in open water to being able to combine the two. Unless you are doing some quite extreme cave diving then CCR's are not necessary or desirable (potentially very inconvenient) when you can quite safely do the whole dive on your open circuit bailout.
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9th March 2007, 11:34	#10 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,189	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Mark, thought you'd have been doing GUE Cave 1 anyway? __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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