Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving?

Mark Chase · 11th March 2007, 15:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL)

A rebreather is not a paneca,it in no way makes you a superior diver to a O/C diver. True it has advantages but as with most things disadvantages too. It is extremely unwise to get into a I am better because I dive a rebreather mindset.

Regards
RAL

Valid point but would you personaly consider it necessary to start at Caven Diver level for a CCR diver with 300+ hours on the unit and five years experiance in wreck diving to trimix level including line laying and wreck penitration skills?

Personaly id like to see an assesment of a divers history and then a check out dive before the course. If the instructor is not satisfied with current skills levels i would expect him to insist on starting a caven level.

ATB

Mark Chase

XJae · 11th March 2007, 15:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL)

A rebreather is not a paneca,it in no way makes you a superior diver to a O/C diver. True it has advantages but as with most things disadvantages too. It is extremely unwise to get into a I am better because I dive a rebreather mindset.

Regards
RAL

you totally missed my point... which is... in general, a diver looking to do ccr cave will have
way more experience and commitment then the average diver looking to do oc cave.
until they teach ccr open water, this will be the case.

seafox · 11th March 2007, 17:16

Mexico cave divers might not be qualified to dive Fl caves??????????

Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver!
A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver!
A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver!
Ect, Ect..................
There is no inferior or superior kind of diver.
Only hours and experience seperates the novice certified diver with the experienced diver that understands and
prepares for the potential risks of more complex diving environments, whatever that may be!
I have done both, Mexico and Florida caves, and yes they are different.
In Fl there is flow, the water is colder, and caves are deeper.
In Mexico, the navigational protocol is slitghly different. (use of T's)
The caves are beautifully decorated, the Cenotes are magnificient.
I like and dive both Fl and Mexico caves, and as I said they are different.
However I don't recall anybody saying to me: when in Florida learn this and when in Mexico learn that!
The skills learned are subject to agency standards, and insructors' comptence, not location.
The courses are just as tough and stringent in Mexico as they are in Fl, and
Mexico certainly has it's fair share of highly competent instructors, such as MattMecico from this board.
A novice CCR cave diver should not and in most cases is not permited to attempt a system like Eagles Nest in Fl, or an advanced cave system in Mexico.
You've earned a card, but progessive penetration, diving within your limits, and diving caves more than a few days every two or three years, is still the rule of the day.
There will always be incompetence, complacency and stupidity in any sport or activity.
Cave diving and diving in general is no exception!

Your mileage may vary!

Cornel

bletso · 11th March 2007, 17:41

Mark,

It seems to me you are dead set against doing any more than the minimum training required.

Like most programs, cave training starts from the cavern zone. It isn't long or complicated. In any case NO responsible instructor would enter into a cave environment without diving with you first. If you can produce a wreck penetration card and some logged dives to back it up, you would certainly be given some leeway. But in any case you will still have to demonstrate all the skills required by the agency whose training you take.

You will also have to meet the total dives, various systems (numbers of caves) requirements, and total hours in the cave environment. Those are the standards of the organisations and the community. Whether you or I like them is really irrevelant. I have had to do things I didn't see a need for, or a logical rationale for justification.

Others have posted IANTD standards and the others are very similar. There can be no credit given here.

I would never pretend to know all the hazards of wreck penetration diving, nor would I enter a wreck without the knowledge for that environment. I am not a wreck diver, but I am well versed in underwater caves.

From where I sit, in some ways wreck diving is actually more risky. There is more entanglement potential, cave-in or collapse potential than in cave diving. Depending on the cave, percolation and zero vis can be as bad or worse. Distance (in time) to the exit is longer in cave diving so air and light management is more critical.

The point is that each has its own hazards and protocols. Shortcuts with either of them can be considered foolhardy.

Would it cost me as much as a newbe with no overhead experienced diver? Probably not, but I wouldn't expect any shortcuts on time or drills, no matter how silly they seem. The instructor's name will be on my card and he better care if I am qualified. If the standards allowed, credit could be allowed, but it is not for you or me to presume it is due because of our experience.

I don't think I have to elaborate on the number of very experienced OC divers new to ECCR have succumbed to their presumed knowledge. What I mean here is CCR diving is not the same as OC nor is cave diving the same as wreck penetration diving.

Dale

bletso · 11th March 2007, 17:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by seafox)

Mexico cave divers might not be qualified to dive Fl caves??????????

Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver!
A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver!
A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver!
Ect, Ect..................

Cornel

Well sort of, but most agencies will also tell you and some of their C-cards state that you are qualifed to dive in similar conditions to which you recieved training.

Anyone who recieves their training in a rock quarry and thinks they are ready for California surf haven't been trained well. All most of our training standards address are <minimum standards>

Dale

dive2dive2000 · 11th March 2007, 17:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Its a tough one this because most of us train in benign conditions and then go off and build up to tough tests.

Does a wreck penetration course on the Scylla (purpose sunk wreck stripped and sterilized) prepair you for diving the G2 wreck that is 75m and can be penetrated bow to Stern on a CCR?

Obviously not.

When i dive in a new place I generally use a guide. Even in the red sea I wouldn't just hire a boat and go jump in on a reef I liked the look of. Local knowledge is important.

Basic training principles are probably the same from Mexico to Ginnie but Ginnie is obviously a far greater challenge and perhaps something Id think about after building up some hours in Mexico and France.

However I stress again I don't get that excited about the idea of cave diving for its own sake. I think the caves of Mexico the sea caves in Spain and the caves in France are likely to be about it for me unless i get the bug. If I did decide to go do Florida I would definitely take an experienced local with me on the dive.

ATB

Mark Chase

Hi Mark,

With that said enjoy Mexico. Training and personal goals stated makes all the difference IMHO. Say hello to Matt and please post a report

seafox · 11th March 2007, 18:03

I agree! It's called learning curve.
I thought I had summed it up as the necessacity for "hours and experience", and diving within your limits.
Thanks for the clarification.

Cornel

**trob09** · 11th March 2007, 18:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by seafox)

Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver!
A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver!
A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver!
Ect, Ect..................

So, if I do all of my training and diving in Grand Cayman in a 3mil wetsuit, can I just go jump into the north atlantic/great lakes with a drysuit/dry gloves?

I've always believed that one needs to train for the environment where one intends to dive. Generally speaking, if you train in more difficult conditions (colder, higher flow, deeper), less difficult conditions are, well, less difficult.

That's not to say that I don't think Mexican caves provide a challenge, I just believe that the caves in N Florida present a greater variety of challenges.

dive2dive2000 · 11th March 2007, 18:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by seafox)

Mexico cave divers might not be qualified to dive Fl caves??????????

Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver!
A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver!
A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver!
Ect, Ect..................
There is no inferior or superior kind of diver.
Only hours and experience seperates the novice certified diver with the experienced diver that understands and
prepares for the potential risks of more complex diving environments, whatever that may be!
I have done both, Mexico and Florida caves, and yes they are different.
In Fl there is flow, the water is colder, and caves are deeper.
In Mexico, the navigational protocol is slitghly different. (use of T's)
The caves are beautifully decorated, the Cenotes are magnificient.
I like and dive both Fl and Mexico caves, and as I said they are different.
However I don't recall anybody saying to me: when in Florida learn this and when in Mexico learn that!
The skills learned are subject to agency standards, and insructors' comptence, not location.
The courses are just as tough and stringent in Mexico as they are in Fl, and
Mexico certainly has it's fair share of highly competent instructors, such as MattMecico from this board.
A novice CCR cave diver should not and in most cases is not permited to attempt a system like Eagles Nest in Fl, or an advanced cave system in Mexico.
You've earned a card, but progessive penetration, diving within your limits, and diving caves more than a few days every two or three years, is still the rule of the day.
There will always be incompetence, complacency and stupidity in any sport or activity.
Cave diving and diving in general is no exception!

Your mileage may vary!

Cornel

Please do not misunderstand my post. I am not knocking or taking away from any instructors or divers in Mexico. Some of the worlds best live, dive, explore and teach there. I personally feel you will get more out of a course in FL than you will in Mexico. I am not talking about instructors, just cave conditions.

The point I was trying to make if you were to train in Mexico, and then dive in Florida you might feel like you were over your head or, you might not. I did not mean to imply that one area has better divers than another. Unless of course your from Canada

seafox · 11th March 2007, 19:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

So, if I do all of my training and diving in Grand Cayman in a 3mil wetsuit, can I just go jump into the north atlantic/great lakes with a drysuit/dry gloves?

In this scenario, I would perhaps suggest prior practice with a dry suit and a few prep dives with an experienced colleague, to learn some additional skills, but I don't think you need to be totally retrained, or have to retake a divers course.

I've always believed that one needs to train for the environment where one intends to dive. Generally speaking, if you train in more difficult conditions (colder, higher flow, deeper), less difficult conditions are, well, less difficult.

I agree, but are you suggesting that a diver taking a cave course in Mexico, needs to be retrained for Fl?
IMHO: if you're trained for a certain category of diving, you have the skills to dive at that level, otherwise you should not have been certified.
Any C-card is a licence to learn .
As Tom Mount put it:
"Completion of a program signifies one has the foundation to develop into a more skilled diver.
It does not imply that one is a master at that type of diving"
YES if conditions and environment change dramatically, you should ask for assistance, implement progressive penetration in your dive plan, until you reach a comfortable level with those new conditions.
However, not being familair with an environment, does not automatically equate to incompetency.
How much assistance you want, if any, becomes a personal decision.
Tom again, and I hope he is recovering well:
"Nobody can swim for you
Nobody can breathe for you"

That's not to say that I don't think Mexican caves provide a challenge, I just believe that the caves in N Florida present a greater variety of challenges.

IMHO: Different challenges

Cornel

11th March 2007, 15:17	#51 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL) A rebreather is not a paneca,it in no way makes you a superior diver to a O/C diver. True it has advantages but as with most things disadvantages too. It is extremely unwise to get into a I am better because I dive a rebreather mindset. Regards RAL Valid point but would you personaly consider it necessary to start at Caven Diver level for a CCR diver with 300+ hours on the unit and five years experiance in wreck diving to trimix level including line laying and wreck penitration skills? Personaly id like to see an assesment of a divers history and then a check out dive before the course. If the instructor is not satisfied with current skills levels i would expect him to insist on starting a caven level. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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11th March 2007, 15:29	#52 (permalink)
XJae New Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: NJ Posts: 58	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL) A rebreather is not a paneca,it in no way makes you a superior diver to a O/C diver. True it has advantages but as with most things disadvantages too. It is extremely unwise to get into a I am better because I dive a rebreather mindset. Regards RAL you totally missed my point... which is... in general, a diver looking to do ccr cave will have way more experience and commitment then the average diver looking to do oc cave. until they teach ccr open water, this will be the case.
(Offline)

11th March 2007, 17:16	#53 (permalink)
seafox 02ptima Instructor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TORONTO, CANADA -Have "02ptima" will travel! Posts: 172	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Mexico cave divers might not be qualified to dive Fl caves?????????? Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver! A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver! A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver! Ect, Ect.................. There is no inferior or superior kind of diver. Only hours and experience seperates the novice certified diver with the experienced diver that understands and prepares for the potential risks of more complex diving environments, whatever that may be! I have done both, Mexico and Florida caves, and yes they are different. In Fl there is flow, the water is colder, and caves are deeper. In Mexico, the navigational protocol is slitghly different. (use of T's) The caves are beautifully decorated, the Cenotes are magnificient. I like and dive both Fl and Mexico caves, and as I said they are different. However I don't recall anybody saying to me: when in Florida learn this and when in Mexico learn that! The skills learned are subject to agency standards, and insructors' comptence, not location. The courses are just as tough and stringent in Mexico as they are in Fl, and Mexico certainly has it's fair share of highly competent instructors, such as MattMecico from this board. A novice CCR cave diver should not and in most cases is not permited to attempt a system like Eagles Nest in Fl, or an advanced cave system in Mexico. You've earned a card, but progessive penetration, diving within your limits, and diving caves more than a few days every two or three years, is still the rule of the day. There will always be incompetence, complacency and stupidity in any sport or activity. Cave diving and diving in general is no exception! Your mileage may vary! Cornel __________________ Protect the SHARKS! Excellence is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision to see obstacles as opportunities. Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards! Last edited by seafox : 11th March 2007 at 17:20.
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11th March 2007, 17:41	#54 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 256	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Mark, It seems to me you are dead set against doing any more than the minimum training required. Like most programs, cave training starts from the cavern zone. It isn't long or complicated. In any case NO responsible instructor would enter into a cave environment without diving with you first. If you can produce a wreck penetration card and some logged dives to back it up, you would certainly be given some leeway. But in any case you will still have to demonstrate all the skills required by the agency whose training you take. You will also have to meet the total dives, various systems (numbers of caves) requirements, and total hours in the cave environment. Those are the standards of the organisations and the community. Whether you or I like them is really irrevelant. I have had to do things I didn't see a need for, or a logical rationale for justification. Others have posted IANTD standards and the others are very similar. There can be no credit given here. I would never pretend to know all the hazards of wreck penetration diving, nor would I enter a wreck without the knowledge for that environment. I am not a wreck diver, but I am well versed in underwater caves. From where I sit, in some ways wreck diving is actually more risky. There is more entanglement potential, cave-in or collapse potential than in cave diving. Depending on the cave, percolation and zero vis can be as bad or worse. Distance (in time) to the exit is longer in cave diving so air and light management is more critical. The point is that each has its own hazards and protocols. Shortcuts with either of them can be considered foolhardy. Would it cost me as much as a newbe with no overhead experienced diver? Probably not, but I wouldn't expect any shortcuts on time or drills, no matter how silly they seem. The instructor's name will be on my card and he better care if I am qualified. If the standards allowed, credit could be allowed, but it is not for you or me to presume it is due because of our experience. I don't think I have to elaborate on the number of very experienced OC divers new to ECCR have succumbed to their presumed knowledge. What I mean here is CCR diving is not the same as OC nor is cave diving the same as wreck penetration diving. Dale
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11th March 2007, 17:49	#55 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 256	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by seafox) Mexico cave divers might not be qualified to dive Fl caves?????????? Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver! A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver! A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver! Ect, Ect.................. Cornel Well sort of, but most agencies will also tell you and some of their C-cards state that you are qualifed to dive in similar conditions to which you recieved training. Anyone who recieves their training in a rock quarry and thinks they are ready for California surf haven't been trained well. All most of our training standards address are <minimum standards> Dale
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11th March 2007, 17:58	#56 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Its a tough one this because most of us train in benign conditions and then go off and build up to tough tests. Does a wreck penetration course on the Scylla (purpose sunk wreck stripped and sterilized) prepair you for diving the G2 wreck that is 75m and can be penetrated bow to Stern on a CCR? Obviously not. When i dive in a new place I generally use a guide. Even in the red sea I wouldn't just hire a boat and go jump in on a reef I liked the look of. Local knowledge is important. Basic training principles are probably the same from Mexico to Ginnie but Ginnie is obviously a far greater challenge and perhaps something Id think about after building up some hours in Mexico and France. However I stress again I don't get that excited about the idea of cave diving for its own sake. I think the caves of Mexico the sea caves in Spain and the caves in France are likely to be about it for me unless i get the bug. If I did decide to go do Florida I would definitely take an experienced local with me on the dive. ATB Mark Chase Hi Mark, With that said enjoy Mexico. Training and personal goals stated makes all the difference IMHO. Say hello to Matt and please post a report __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
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11th March 2007, 18:03	#57 (permalink)
seafox 02ptima Instructor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TORONTO, CANADA -Have "02ptima" will travel! Posts: 172	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? I agree! It's called learning curve. I thought I had summed it up as the necessacity for "hours and experience", and diving within your limits. Thanks for the clarification. Cornel __________________ Protect the SHARKS! Excellence is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision to see obstacles as opportunities. Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards!
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11th March 2007, 18:08	#58 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 699	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by seafox) Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver! A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver! A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver! Ect, Ect.................. So, if I do all of my training and diving in Grand Cayman in a 3mil wetsuit, can I just go jump into the north atlantic/great lakes with a drysuit/dry gloves? I've always believed that one needs to train for the environment where one intends to dive. Generally speaking, if you train in more difficult conditions (colder, higher flow, deeper), less difficult conditions are, well, less difficult. That's not to say that I don't think Mexican caves provide a challenge, I just believe that the caves in N Florida present a greater variety of challenges.
(Offline)

11th March 2007, 18:12	#59 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by seafox) Mexico cave divers might not be qualified to dive Fl caves?????????? Sorry man, a certified cave diver is a certified cave diver! A certified CCR diver is a certified CCR Diver! A certified recreational diver is a certified recreational diver! Ect, Ect.................. There is no inferior or superior kind of diver. Only hours and experience seperates the novice certified diver with the experienced diver that understands and prepares for the potential risks of more complex diving environments, whatever that may be! I have done both, Mexico and Florida caves, and yes they are different. In Fl there is flow, the water is colder, and caves are deeper. In Mexico, the navigational protocol is slitghly different. (use of T's) The caves are beautifully decorated, the Cenotes are magnificient. I like and dive both Fl and Mexico caves, and as I said they are different. However I don't recall anybody saying to me: when in Florida learn this and when in Mexico learn that! The skills learned are subject to agency standards, and insructors' comptence, not location. The courses are just as tough and stringent in Mexico as they are in Fl, and Mexico certainly has it's fair share of highly competent instructors, such as MattMecico from this board. A novice CCR cave diver should not and in most cases is not permited to attempt a system like Eagles Nest in Fl, or an advanced cave system in Mexico. You've earned a card, but progessive penetration, diving within your limits, and diving caves more than a few days every two or three years, is still the rule of the day. There will always be incompetence, complacency and stupidity in any sport or activity. Cave diving and diving in general is no exception! Your mileage may vary! Cornel Please do not misunderstand my post. I am not knocking or taking away from any instructors or divers in Mexico. Some of the worlds best live, dive, explore and teach there. I personally feel you will get more out of a course in FL than you will in Mexico. I am not talking about instructors, just cave conditions. The point I was trying to make if you were to train in Mexico, and then dive in Florida you might feel like you were over your head or, you might not. I did not mean to imply that one area has better divers than another. Unless of course your from Canada __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Offline)

11th March 2007, 19:00	#60 (permalink)
seafox 02ptima Instructor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TORONTO, CANADA -Have "02ptima" will travel! Posts: 172	Re: Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving? Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) So, if I do all of my training and diving in Grand Cayman in a 3mil wetsuit, can I just go jump into the north atlantic/great lakes with a drysuit/dry gloves? In this scenario, I would perhaps suggest prior practice with a dry suit and a few prep dives with an experienced colleague, to learn some additional skills, but I don't think you need to be totally retrained, or have to retake a divers course. I've always believed that one needs to train for the environment where one intends to dive. Generally speaking, if you train in more difficult conditions (colder, higher flow, deeper), less difficult conditions are, well, less difficult. I agree, but are you suggesting that a diver taking a cave course in Mexico, needs to be retrained for Fl? IMHO: if you're trained for a certain category of diving, you have the skills to dive at that level, otherwise you should not have been certified. Any C-card is a licence to learn . As Tom Mount put it: "Completion of a program signifies one has the foundation to develop into a more skilled diver. It does not imply that one is a master at that type of diving" YES if conditions and environment change dramatically, you should ask for assistance, implement progressive penetration in your dive plan, until you reach a comfortable level with those new conditions. However, not being familair with an environment, does not automatically equate to incompetency. How much assistance you want, if any, becomes a personal decision. Tom again, and I hope he is recovering well: "Nobody can swim for you Nobody can breathe for you" That's not to say that I don't think Mexican caves provide a challenge, I just believe that the caves in N Florida present a greater variety of challenges. IMHO: Different challenges Cornel __________________ Protect the SHARKS! Excellence is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision to see obstacles as opportunities. Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards!
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