Prerequisites for CCR Cave diving?

dive2dive2000

Go train in Mexico then go dive Ginnie or Little River and then tell me if you felt qualified or prepared. Again just my PPO2.

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Safe Diving,
Martin

decoweenie

Thanks for bringing this up, I have been thinking a lot about this as well...

I was OC-cave trained in France and only have dived the caves on OC there aside from a couple of deep "sea cave" in Oman and Egypt on CCR.

As most people already know, most "tourist" caves in France (that I dived) have a main line and no jump (not that I have ran across). I have studied about the procedures and done some gap/jump exercises, but no real-life experience.

If I were to go diving in Mexico and/or Florida, how would I be able to cope with the different cave environments there ?

FWIW, I am a newbie tourist cave diver who only been about 1km/3300ft in.

Would there be any benefit in taking a CCR-cave course in either Mexico or Florida ?

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XJae

this was a great class. i'll 3rd tim and mark's comments. martin is a great instructor and will not only teach you to dive caves on a ccr but will also make sure you are a ccr diver, not an oc diver with a ccr.

XJae

i couldnt imagine splitting this up like oc. think of how many people take cavern as their first technical training. it's a much longer road for those folks. if you have 50-100 hours on your unit... then you are obviously serious about diving and have some experience. that being said... you need to be dialed in with your trim and buoyancy to get the most out of it.

Mark Chase

Its a tough one this because most of us train in benign conditions and then go off and build up to tough tests.

Does a wreck penetration course on the Scylla (purpose sunk wreck stripped and sterilized) prepair you for diving the G2 wreck that is 75m and can be penetrated bow to Stern on a CCR?

Obviously not.

When i dive in a new place I generally use a guide. Even in the red sea I wouldn't just hire a boat and go jump in on a reef I liked the look of. Local knowledge is important.

Basic training principles are probably the same from Mexico to Ginnie but Ginnie is obviously a far greater challenge and perhaps something Id think about after building up some hours in Mexico and France.

However I stress again I don't get that excited about the idea of cave diving for its own sake. I think the caves of Mexico the sea caves in Spain and the caves in France are likely to be about it for me unless i get the bug. If I did decide to go do Florida I would definitely take an experienced local with me on the dive.

ATB

Mark Chase

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bletso

You are probably correct. Nothing in OW training prepares one for a cave environment. Here the statistics bare out the truth. Of the 400+ deaths in caves over the past twenty years or so, untrained divers outnumber the trained divers by at least 4:1. In both categories, most of the fatalities involved breaking one of the following rules;

1: Training (or exceeding ones training limits)
2: Continuous Guideline to the exit
3: Air rules violation
4: Depth (especially important in the list of trained cavers)
5: Lights, (insufficient lights for backup)

This is just a cautionary warning to all those who don't appreciate the value of proper training for cave diving.

Though wreck penetration training shares some of the rules for caving, it in no way covers the specific hazards to the cave environment, nor does it share the same air rules. The same is true in the other direction.

PADI and the CDS produced a video I recommend all divers see. It is A Deceptively Easy Way To DIE

FWIW, there has been two fatalities this year in caves, one trained, one untrained.

For those of you who think some caves are safer than others, bare in mind, that two of the SAFEST in Florida, Vortex and Marrison, have each claimed more than twenty victims each!!!!

Dale

Mark Chase

With respect Id like to point to a few areas where my minuscule knowledge of cave diving leads me to believe this is not true.


Wreck penetration diving has exactly the same gas rules as cave diving. It has exactly the same continuous line to open water rules as cave diving. It has the same back up light rules as cave diving. Lost line drills are the same and lost line is more common due to lines getting cut by sharp bits of wreckage.

When we dive a new wreck or what is believed to be a new wreck we leave the lines in. A second visit to the site can result in the re use of the old line and adding jumps. Line marking rules apply although i don't use cave markers I prefer to mark junctions with a strobe off set in the direction of the exit.

Generally (with two notable exceptions) the wreck penetrations are a squeeze through narrow corridors and up / down tight stair cases. I cant remember doing a big penetration dive where silt has not been a problem. Due to the tight nature of most penetration I would deify JJ and GI3 not to kick up some rubbish on the way.

The main difference i see with caves is we generally don't have flow to contend with. The other point is we are vary rarely inside the wreck for long periods of time. I spent about 90mins inside the Zenobia once but the length of the dives i do (generally 120-180min) is mainly on deco.

I am also acutely aware of the fact I have very little experience in buoyancy and trim in shallow water. The only time I am at 6m-10 is on deco but I understand that you can be a mile inside a Mexican cave and still be 8m deep. I am sure this will represent a challenge to my buoyancy control on a CCR whilst doing skills and laying line etc.

I see dive planning fro cave to be a challenge on deep steep caves. I could see planning progress out against deco obligations to be a bit of a challenge if you have long stops and moving out means moving up.

Learning the geology of a cave with a view to gaining knowledge that would help you exit if lost is important but no more so than understanding the construction and design of a ship. Caves are a generally stable environment but ships can easily decide to block your exit. Often holes that were a wiggle to penetrate one way are imposable the other way.


Having read Dr Mikes exploits in wreck diving it came as no surprise to me that he did a full cave course and then went on to do some challenging cave dives. Whilst a lot of things must have been new I am sure his wreck penetration experience put him mentally and skills wise ahead of the learning curve.

Mike kindly took the time to offer some advice and said that the big difference he noted was at the turning point where you knew you were totally committed to the slog of the return journey. That made sense to me. I know the feeling when i look at my computer and it says time to surface something daft like 140mins. Sometimes you just have to tough it out on the way up. However with OW diving once your off the seabed and (in my case) above 50m its all very relaxed where as in a cave I probably have another two hours of potential danger ahead of me.

What ever happens i am looking forward to the new challenge and the new experience. I am also very much looking forward to developing some team work with Howard and Janos before we go.

ATB

Mark Chase

__________________
Is it supposed to make that noise ?

I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit.

Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt

"Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System

sensor330

Or Jackson Blue and Eagles Nest. Jackson Blue can be like swimming into a fire hose if you can't read the cave.

sensor330

Never dove Mexico caves and I'm not going to start hacking anyones training. From what I've read the caves in Florida by thier nature probably would give students a better appreication as to how harsh a cave enviroment can be, thus they are probably going to be better prepared. As long as you got training from a good instructor and you did, training is training and how you are able to apply it in the end is what matters.

Scott

RAL

A rebreather is not a paneca,it in no way makes you a superior diver to a O/C diver. True it has advantages but as with most things disadvantages too. It is extremely unwise to get into a I am better because I dive a rebreather mindset.


Regards
RAL

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