submatix EC approval organisation

***schford*** · 3rd March 2007, 16:00

This thread is going all over place away from original discussion and I am aware I am guilty too.....

craig daniel · 4th March 2007, 09:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Question 1: Unknown because it has not been tested competently. The answer is probably "Yes, it is dangerous", as it does not comply with the minimum safety requirement in the Standard.

Question 2: It is legal for you to dive with it, but cannot lawfully be sold or be used in work because the Certificate of Compliance is not issued by an accredited body and is incompetent.

Alex

This is all unknown territory for me!!
Are saying that "all rebreathers that have not been through the CE testing are dangerous to use"
If so, why is there not a general diving standard such as having your cylinders tested?

AD_ward9 · 4th March 2007, 16:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by craig daniel)

This is all unknown territory for me!!
Are saying that "all rebreathers that have not been through the CE testing are dangerous to use"
If so, why is there not a general diving standard such as having your cylinders tested?

I am saying using a piece of life critical equipment that has not been tested properly is dangerous.

Being Sunday, I might be permitted to upset more people in one go, if I broaden that by also saying that using a piece of equipment that fails to meet the "minimum safety requirements" established by a panel of experts together with a great wealth of experience, i.e. EN14143, is foolhardy.

As regards your question on a general diving standard for rebreathers, there is one. It is called EN14143:2003. Some countries not in Europe have copied it. See NORSOK U101 for example. That standard incorporated near to the sum knowledge of rebreather safety as it existed a few years ago.

Pulling back to the topic, the Submatrix unit is claimed to have been tested to this standard, but the certificate is not a valid one. The invitation was to post the Technical File with the EN14143 test results if this mistake was due to a genuine error rather than an attempt to mislead. I still do not see the Technical File or any test data. Please could anyone involved with the Submatrix prove our doubts wrong by publishing the Tech File.

If nothing else good comes of this, the Submatrix fiasco will plant a sign post to help anyone else avoid this trap.

Alex

Ben Field · 4th March 2007, 17:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Being Sunday, I might be permitted to upset more people in one go,....

Comon then- bring it on Alex!

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

if I broaden that by also saying that using a piece of equipment that fails to meet the "minimum safety requirements" established by a panel of experts together with a great wealth of experience, i.e. EN14143, is foolhardy.

Oooo, good try.... earlier in this thread you suggested/stated that no current rebreathers meet EN14143, so I guess you just labelled the lot of us!?

Are you currently diving a Rebreather, I believe you dived an Inspiration for a while?

While I've been pretty vocal in this thread its perhaps ironic that I dive a KISS, a rebreather proudly not officially tested as yet with a good record so far. I should perhaps say that I feel CE issue is worth discussing because of the huge lack of knowledge in the general diving public of this issue, coupled to the fact that "CE Certified" has been pushed as a MUST have item to them by the agencies in the UK. As such if something is touted as CE approved it bl**dy well should be.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

That standard incorporated near to the sum knowledge of rebreather safety as it existed a few years ago.

So do you think it will be/needs updating?

Do you think MCCR can be senisbly and safely incorporated or added?

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

If nothing else good comes of this, the Submatrix fiasco will plant a sign post to help anyone else avoid this trap.

Yeah- that would be a worthwhile outcome.

What I think is a shame is the submatics looks a pretty neat unit, a proper test against EN14143 might have shown it wanting but that could have been remedied to its eventual benefit.

BEN

AD_ward9 · 4th March 2007, 20:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

<long snip>
So do you think it (EN14143) will be/needs updating?

Do you think MCCR can be senisbly and safely incorporated or added?

On your general point, I dive various rebreather combinations. My "Inspo" has very little resemblence to what the factory produced, as things got fixed. In fact so much so, that I could never send it back for a service.

Answer to question 1: EN14143 is being updated. I do not know when the revision will be issued, but the CEN-SC7 Committee are working on it. This means if someone knows of wording that needs improvements, this is the time to flag it.

Answer to question 2: I believe an mCCR should be added and have drawn this issue to the attention of a member of the CEN-SC7 Committee.

Alex

gibbogeo · 4th March 2007, 20:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Answer to question 2: I believe an mCCR should be added and have drawn this issue to the attention of a member of the CEN-SC7 Committee.

There is one think that is not clear to me: i agree that the MCCR must be ibncorportaed in the EN norm, but at this moment, with the 14143:2003, is it possible to get the CE certification for a MCCR?

Thank you.

Ben Field · 4th March 2007, 21:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

On your general point, I dive various rebreather combinations. My "Inspo" has very little resemblence to what the factory produced, as things got fixed. In fact so much so, that I could never send it back for a service.

OK thanks, I was just after alittle backstory...

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Answer to question 1: EN14143 is being updated. I do not know when the revision will be issued, but the CEN-SC7 Committee are working on it. This means if someone knows of wording that needs improvements, this is the time to flag it.

Is there a formal platform for this, or is the Committee actually people involved in recreational rebreather usage who would know of this ongoing debate? (I can imagine some of them could be here already?)

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Answer to question 2: I believe an mCCR should be added and have drawn this issue to the attention of a member of the CEN-SC7 Committee.

Interesting, thanks.

BEN

AD_ward9 · 5th March 2007, 04:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by gibbogeo)

There is one think that is not clear to me: i agree that the MCCR must be ibncorportaed in the EN norm, but at this moment, with the 14143:2003, is it possible to get the CE certification for a MCCR?

Thank you.

Reply posted on the CE Mark thread HERE to avoid pulling the Submatrix discussion off track any further. Short answer is yes.

Answer to Ben's question on the formal platform is also embedded in different places on that same thread.

Alex

***EBT*** · 23rd March 2007, 12:33

REVO Specific stuff that was going off topic moved to a new thread; http://www.rebreatherworld.com/close...ce-thread.html

3rd March 2007, 16:00	#81 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,562	Re: submatix EC approval organisation This thread is going all over place away from original discussion and I am aware I am guilty too..... __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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4th March 2007, 09:55	#82 (permalink)
craig daniel New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: cornwall england Posts: 26	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Question 1: Unknown because it has not been tested competently. The answer is probably "Yes, it is dangerous", as it does not comply with the minimum safety requirement in the Standard. Question 2: It is legal for you to dive with it, but cannot lawfully be sold or be used in work because the Certificate of Compliance is not issued by an accredited body and is incompetent. Alex This is all unknown territory for me!! Are saying that "all rebreathers that have not been through the CE testing are dangerous to use" If so, why is there not a general diving standard such as having your cylinders tested?
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4th March 2007, 16:50	#83 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by craig daniel) This is all unknown territory for me!! Are saying that "all rebreathers that have not been through the CE testing are dangerous to use" If so, why is there not a general diving standard such as having your cylinders tested? I am saying using a piece of life critical equipment that has not been tested properly is dangerous. Being Sunday, I might be permitted to upset more people in one go, if I broaden that by also saying that using a piece of equipment that fails to meet the "minimum safety requirements" established by a panel of experts together with a great wealth of experience, i.e. EN14143, is foolhardy. As regards your question on a general diving standard for rebreathers, there is one. It is called EN14143:2003. Some countries not in Europe have copied it. See NORSOK U101 for example. That standard incorporated near to the sum knowledge of rebreather safety as it existed a few years ago. Pulling back to the topic, the Submatrix unit is claimed to have been tested to this standard, but the certificate is not a valid one. The invitation was to post the Technical File with the EN14143 test results if this mistake was due to a genuine error rather than an attempt to mislead. I still do not see the Technical File or any test data. Please could anyone involved with the Submatrix prove our doubts wrong by publishing the Tech File. If nothing else good comes of this, the Submatrix fiasco will plant a sign post to help anyone else avoid this trap. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 4th March 2007 at 17:05.
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4th March 2007, 17:52	#84 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,621	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Being Sunday, I might be permitted to upset more people in one go,.... Comon then- bring it on Alex! Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) if I broaden that by also saying that using a piece of equipment that fails to meet the "minimum safety requirements" established by a panel of experts together with a great wealth of experience, i.e. EN14143, is foolhardy. Oooo, good try.... earlier in this thread you suggested/stated that no current rebreathers meet EN14143, so I guess you just labelled the lot of us!? Are you currently diving a Rebreather, I believe you dived an Inspiration for a while? While I've been pretty vocal in this thread its perhaps ironic that I dive a KISS, a rebreather proudly not officially tested as yet with a good record so far. I should perhaps say that I feel CE issue is worth discussing because of the huge lack of knowledge in the general diving public of this issue, coupled to the fact that "CE Certified" has been pushed as a MUST have item to them by the agencies in the UK. As such if something is touted as CE approved it bldy well should be. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) That standard incorporated near to the sum knowledge of rebreather safety as it existed a few years ago. So do you think it will be/needs updating? Do you think MCCR can be senisbly and safely incorporated or added? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) If nothing else good comes of this, the Submatrix fiasco will plant a sign post to help anyone else avoid this trap. Yeah- that would be a worthwhile outcome. What I think is a shame is the submatics looks a pretty neat unit, a proper test against EN14143 might have shown it wanting but that could have been remedied to its eventual benefit. BEN __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM!** Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
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4th March 2007, 20:17	#85 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) <long snip> So do you think it (EN14143) will be/needs updating? Do you think MCCR can be senisbly and safely incorporated or added? On your general point, I dive various rebreather combinations. My "Inspo" has very little resemblence to what the factory produced, as things got fixed. In fact so much so, that I could never send it back for a service. Answer to question 1: EN14143 is being updated. I do not know when the revision will be issued, but the CEN-SC7 Committee are working on it. This means if someone knows of wording that needs improvements, this is the time to flag it. Answer to question 2: I believe an mCCR should be added and have drawn this issue to the attention of a member of the CEN-SC7 Committee. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 4th March 2007 at 20:20.
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4th March 2007, 20:41	#86 (permalink)
gibbogeo Gilberto Bonaga, Italy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: italy Posts: 315	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Answer to question 2: I believe an mCCR should be added and have drawn this issue to the attention of a member of the CEN-SC7 Committee. There is one think that is not clear to me: i agree that the MCCR must be ibncorportaed in the EN norm, but at this moment, with the 14143:2003, is it possible to get the CE certification for a MCCR? Thank you.
(Offline)

4th March 2007, 21:56	#87 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,621	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) On your general point, I dive various rebreather combinations. My "Inspo" has very little resemblence to what the factory produced, as things got fixed. In fact so much so, that I could never send it back for a service. OK thanks, I was just after alittle backstory... Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Answer to question 1: EN14143 is being updated. I do not know when the revision will be issued, but the CEN-SC7 Committee are working on it. This means if someone knows of wording that needs improvements, this is the time to flag it. Is there a formal platform for this, or is the Committee actually people involved in recreational rebreather usage who would know of this ongoing debate? (I can imagine some of them could be here already?) Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Answer to question 2: I believe an mCCR should be added and have drawn this issue to the attention of a member of the CEN-SC7 Committee. Interesting, thanks. BEN __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

5th March 2007, 04:48	#88 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by gibbogeo) There is one think that is not clear to me: i agree that the MCCR must be ibncorportaed in the EN norm, but at this moment, with the 14143:2003, is it possible to get the CE certification for a MCCR? Thank you. Reply posted on the CE Mark thread HERE to avoid pulling the Submatrix discussion off track any further. Short answer is yes. Answer to Ben's question on the formal platform is also embedded in different places on that same thread. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 5th March 2007 at 05:12. Reason: Put in the link to the right thread.
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23rd March 2007, 12:33	#89 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,970	Re: submatix EC approval organisation REVO Specific stuff that was going off topic moved to a new thread; http://www.rebreatherworld.com/close...ce-thread.html __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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