submatix EC approval organisation

decoweenie · 21st February 2007, 08:39

If I were Jetsam and ISC, I would explore this loop-hole right now to get CE-cert before it is closed and would have to pay $$$ to get properly tested...

Nad · 21st February 2007, 08:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

If I were Jetsam and ISC, I would explore this loop-hole right now to get CE-cert before it is closed and would have to pay $$$ to get properly tested...

MMhhh, I can also rebuild my old (and now disassembled) Homebuild and try to do the same.

Ben Field · 21st February 2007, 13:13

Hmmm, doesn't the fact that someone feels they have to defend this make you concerned?

You can't have a bunch of different "machines" all claiming to be equally certified but clearly tested differently, it smells of BS to me.

The fact that these manufacturers have a questionable CE rating makes me far less likely to buy or reccomend them to others than the ones not marked at all!!

If I where Submatics or Voyager I'd be all over this like a rash to clarify it but instead we have <insert tumble weed> nothing....

BEN

Dinspiration · 21st February 2007, 15:38

Hi,

I think the mentioned manufacturers did not try to cheat the law and/or their customers!

What about all the other manufacturers using the same CE mark? Like SEAC, Mares and a lot of other Italien companies. You will see the same CE number on most their items. Are all these CE's also fakes?

Regarding the CE 14143 - After all these answer we still don't have a common view about this norm. How should a manufacturer solve this?

Before you can even think about the CE 14143 a lot of other things must be tested and certified: Jackets, hoses, regulators, first stages, used threads and connections and many moore. Absolutely nothing against Pauls rEvo, but his rebreather uses parts from Draeger, connections from Dräger, APEKS first stages, a jacket form vendor XY etc. Before he does not get the written confirmation (sorry I don't know the correct englisch word this specific document) from each manufacturer that allows him to use this parts with his rebreather there is no change to get any CE mark (not as life jacket, toaster or whatever) for his system. After all this the CE 14143 strikes again.

The CE is a pain for all engineers like Paul trying to develop a very good working rebreather. Instead of moving forward they are struggled with this CE feature fu***. At the end nobody of us cares about it. What we as users need are reliable, high quality very good working rebreathers.

Another example how "useless, stupid" the CE can be: You have a regulator from manufacturer XY with a CE mark. On this regulator you don't like the mouthpiece and you are replacing it with an other one from a different vendor. At this moment you lost the CE on this item! Because you changed something which is not part of the CE for this specific item. Only if you are using a mouthpiece from the same vendor and this mouthpiece has the CE with this regulator you will keep the CE. If you as a diveshop do this for a customer and afterwards the costumer has an accident in which the regulator is somehow involved, he can sue you. Also the insurance company can reduce their payment if your equipment was not CE conform. OK how many of us changed something on our rebreathers? Like additional O2 regulator, back mounted counterlungs, additional HUD etc. etc. etc. All of us lost the CE.....AND WE ARE STILL ALIVE.....

I was just thinking loud....

DINspiration

Nad · 21st February 2007, 15:58

You're right but the problem is that some manufacturers don't event tell the specifications of the CE cert. So you buy a rebreather and finally discover that it never gain at least the 14143.

Try to buy a Meg I'm sure that Leon never tell you that his rig has CE cert because he don't need that.

It's question of honesty.

The only Italian Body able to certify is Italcert and RINA and both can just follow the iter for CE Test that have to be executed at the ANSTI.
That's it.

The rest is just trash.
Nad

Ben Field · 21st February 2007, 17:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dinspiration)

I think the mentioned manufacturers did not try to cheat the law and/or their customers!

No offense but do you work for either of them? If not then how do you know that?

I didn't say they where trying to cheat anyone, they might just be ignorant or have been tricked by someone else.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dinspiration)

Another example how "useless, stupid" the CE can be: You have a regulator from manufacturer XY with a CE mark. On this regulator you don't like the mouthpiece and you are replacing it with an other one from a different vendor. At this moment you lost the CE on this item!

Yes... but thats not what we're talking about, at least the reg in question had a legitimate CE mark in the first place. What you do with something once you've bought it is your problem.

If the reg was CE marked as a snorkel then it would be relevant.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dinspiration)

Also the insurance company can reduce their payment if your equipment was not CE conform.

Do you have any evidence of that?

***jradomski*** · 21st February 2007, 17:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

No offense but do you work for either of them? If not then how do you know that?

I didn't say they where trying to cheat anyone, they might just be ignorant or have been tricked by someone else.

Yes... but thats not what we're talking about, at least the reg in question had a legitimate CE mark in the first place. What you do with something once you've bought it is your problem.

If the reg was CE marked as a snorkel then it would be relevant.

Do you have any evidence of that?

I think NAD has more than 1 valid point.. Rebreather manufacturers should all be aware of the proper directive a Rebreather should be certified under.. There was a long period where it was being publicised before it was even adopted.. Its also quite clear there is a very limited pool of organizations/people who can certify under this directive..

Anyone who chooses to get it CE arked under a different set of rules has to know what they are doing.. whether its illegal, imoral or not is another story...

Dinspiration · 21st February 2007, 18:08

Hi

I don't work for Submatix or any other of the mentioned companies. I'm a 08:15 rebreather user/instructor.

The problem with the mouthpiece was listed in a German diver magazine some time ago. I also got this info during a maintenance training from the teacher.

Based on your example the main discussion is: Do this Italien and other German Rebreathers have a CE Mark as Rebreathers or Jacket or whatever. And is it then illegal to sell it as CE rebreathers.

At the end the lawyers and the justice will need a lot of time and money to figure it out.....Would be an interesting case (No - I'm not a lawyer...)

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

No offense but do you work for either of them? If not then how do you know that?

I didn't say they where trying to cheat anyone, they might just be ignorant or have been tricked by someone else.

Yes... but thats not what we're talking about, at least the reg in question had a legitimate CE mark in the first place. What you do with something once you've bought it is your problem.

If the reg was CE marked as a snorkel then it would be relevant.

Do you have any evidence of that?

seppu · 21st February 2007, 20:10

hai
after ap bashing,is now submatix and aquatek the next.
my2cents

paulraymaekers · 22nd February 2007, 06:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by seppu)

hai
after ap bashing,is now submatix and aquatek the next.
my2cents

NOT AT ALL!!!

did anyone tell something bad about the quality, technically, diving etc of the units??? I'll be the last to do that!

only the way they market/sell the unit is questioned, and the false competition in the CE-area that is going on!

paul

21st February 2007, 08:39	#31 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: submatix EC approval organisation If I were Jetsam and ISC, I would explore this loop-hole right now to get CE-cert before it is closed and would have to pay $$$ to get properly tested... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 08:49	#32 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 976	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) If I were Jetsam and ISC, I would explore this loop-hole right now to get CE-cert before it is closed and would have to pay $$$ to get properly tested... MMhhh, I can also rebuild my old (and now disassembled) Homebuild and try to do the same. __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 13:13	#33 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,621	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Hmmm, doesn't the fact that someone feels they have to defend this make you concerned? You can't have a bunch of different "machines" all claiming to be equally certified but clearly tested differently, it smells of BS to me. The fact that these manufacturers have a questionable CE rating makes me far less likely to buy or reccomend them to others than the ones not marked at all!! If I where Submatics or Voyager I'd be all over this like a rash to clarify it but instead we have <insert tumble weed> nothing.... BEN __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 15:38	#34 (permalink)
Dinspiration Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Switzerland Posts: 209	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Hi, I think the mentioned manufacturers did not try to cheat the law and/or their customers! What about all the other manufacturers using the same CE mark? Like SEAC, Mares and a lot of other Italien companies. You will see the same CE number on most their items. Are all these CE's also fakes? Regarding the CE 14143 - After all these answer we still don't have a common view about this norm. How should a manufacturer solve this? Before you can even think about the CE 14143 a lot of other things must be tested and certified: Jackets, hoses, regulators, first stages, used threads and connections and many moore. Absolutely nothing against Pauls rEvo, but his rebreather uses parts from Draeger, connections from Dräger, APEKS first stages, a jacket form vendor XY etc. Before he does not get the written confirmation (sorry I don't know the correct englisch word this specific document) from each manufacturer that allows him to use this parts with his rebreather there is no change to get any CE mark (not as life jacket, toaster or whatever) for his system. After all this the CE 14143 strikes again. The CE is a pain for all engineers like Paul trying to develop a very good working rebreather. Instead of moving forward they are struggled with this CE feature fu***. At the end nobody of us cares about it. What we as users need are reliable, high quality very good working rebreathers. Another example how "useless, stupid" the CE can be: You have a regulator from manufacturer XY with a CE mark. On this regulator you don't like the mouthpiece and you are replacing it with an other one from a different vendor. At this moment you lost the CE on this item! Because you changed something which is not part of the CE for this specific item. Only if you are using a mouthpiece from the same vendor and this mouthpiece has the CE with this regulator you will keep the CE. If you as a diveshop do this for a customer and afterwards the costumer has an accident in which the regulator is somehow involved, he can sue you. Also the insurance company can reduce their payment if your equipment was not CE conform. OK how many of us changed something on our rebreathers? Like additional O2 regulator, back mounted counterlungs, additional HUD etc. etc. etc. All of us lost the CE.....AND WE ARE STILL ALIVE..... I was just thinking loud.... DINspiration
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 15:58	#35 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 976	Re: submatix EC approval organisation You're right but the problem is that some manufacturers don't event tell the specifications of the CE cert. So you buy a rebreather and finally discover that it never gain at least the 14143. Try to buy a Meg I'm sure that Leon never tell you that his rig has CE cert because he don't need that. It's question of honesty. The only Italian Body able to certify is Italcert and RINA and both can just follow the iter for CE Test that have to be executed at the ANSTI. That's it. The rest is just trash. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 17:26	#36 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,621	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by Dinspiration) I think the mentioned manufacturers did not try to cheat the law and/or their customers! No offense but do you work for either of them? If not then how do you know that? I didn't say they where trying to cheat anyone, they might just be ignorant or have been tricked by someone else. Quote: (Originally Posted by Dinspiration) Another example how "useless, stupid" the CE can be: You have a regulator from manufacturer XY with a CE mark. On this regulator you don't like the mouthpiece and you are replacing it with an other one from a different vendor. At this moment you lost the CE on this item! Yes... but thats not what we're talking about, at least the reg in question had a legitimate CE mark in the first place. What you do with something once you've bought it is your problem. If the reg was CE marked as a snorkel then it would be relevant. Quote: (Originally Posted by Dinspiration) Also the insurance company can reduce their payment if your equipment was not CE conform. Do you have any evidence of that? __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 17:42	#37 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,001	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) No offense but do you work for either of them? If not then how do you know that? I didn't say they where trying to cheat anyone, they might just be ignorant or have been tricked by someone else. Yes... but thats not what we're talking about, at least the reg in question had a legitimate CE mark in the first place. What you do with something once you've bought it is your problem. If the reg was CE marked as a snorkel then it would be relevant. Do you have any evidence of that? I think NAD has more than 1 valid point.. Rebreather manufacturers should all be aware of the proper directive a Rebreather should be certified under.. There was a long period where it was being publicised before it was even adopted.. Its also quite clear there is a very limited pool of organizations/people who can certify under this directive.. Anyone who chooses to get it CE arked under a different set of rules has to know what they are doing.. whether its illegal, imoral or not is another story... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 21st February 2007 at 18:12.
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21st February 2007, 18:08	#38 (permalink)
Dinspiration Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Switzerland Posts: 209	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Hi I don't work for Submatix or any other of the mentioned companies. I'm a 08:15 rebreather user/instructor. The problem with the mouthpiece was listed in a German diver magazine some time ago. I also got this info during a maintenance training from the teacher. Based on your example the main discussion is: Do this Italien and other German Rebreathers have a CE Mark as Rebreathers or Jacket or whatever. And is it then illegal to sell it as CE rebreathers. At the end the lawyers and the justice will need a lot of time and money to figure it out.....Would be an interesting case (No - I'm not a lawyer...) Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) No offense but do you work for either of them? If not then how do you know that? I didn't say they where trying to cheat anyone, they might just be ignorant or have been tricked by someone else. Yes... but thats not what we're talking about, at least the reg in question had a legitimate CE mark in the first place. What you do with something once you've bought it is your problem. If the reg was CE marked as a snorkel then it would be relevant. Do you have any evidence of that?
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 20:10	#39 (permalink)
seppu i ko nix dafüa Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: bayern Posts: 193	Re: submatix EC approval organisation hai after ap bashing,is now submatix and aquatek the next. my2cents
(Online)

22nd February 2007, 06:10	#40 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,494	Re: submatix EC approval organisation Quote: (Originally Posted by seppu) hai after ap bashing,is now submatix and aquatek the next. my2cents NOT AT ALL!!! did anyone tell something bad about the quality, technically, diving etc of the units??? I'll be the last to do that! only the way they market/sell the unit is questioned, and the false competition in the CE-area that is going on! paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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