WKPP again

RAL · 22nd May 2006, 23:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat)

I'm not disagreeing with that. However- that policy is set by the State of Florida. WKPP applied for and was granted access, as was Bill Stone. Theoretically, anyone whose application meets the guidelines set forth by the state *should* be granted access. That is, however, controlled by the state. The WKPP (regardless of the boundless conspiracy theories floating around) does not have the power to say yea or nay regarding anyone's access. There are plenty of precedents for limited public access to "public resources". The USS Monitor is an example of the same thing- occuring at the Federal level (IE there is an application and approval process to dive that wreck). I think it is unfair to characterize the limited access as being the "fault" of the WKPP. Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying the WKPP is perfect or has never done any wrong, or that certain members have never acted obnoxiously, etc. I'm just saying that the blame for this particular issue lies with the State of Florida.

Well first I would like to state that I have extreme respect for the acomplishments of the WKPP.
Like it or not it is clear that politics & petty beefs have screwed things up for everyone. No one minds that the WKPP has standards & insist that all members walk a tight line, in fact that is to be respected. What they mind is the " We are the only ones worthy to dive" bit, they are top notch but "they ain't the only game in town". They have excluded everyone but Stone's group( Lord there was much mashing of teeth, ripped clothing & rolling in the dirt trying to stop it) from Wakulla by convincing the powers that be that they & only they are qualified. Truth be told Stone's crew was not able to perform as well as the fine tuned WKPP machine. So what, theirs & other groups still should be allowed access. Think what some Meg, Boris or KISS teams could do given FULL access. Perhaps there in lies the rub, CCR divers riding SSs waaaaay back in Wakulla? The very thought is enough to make make some break out in a cold sweat.
The stranglehold that the WKPP has had on some sites is now broken, Indian & Emerald come to mind. Who knows Wakulla & Sally Ward could be next.
I think that access to some of the caves needs to be very hard to get but it should be restricted due to capability not religion.

Respectfully RAL

sensor330 · 23rd May 2006, 01:09

My question is who advised the state of Florida on which criteria should be followed in order to dive there? Anybody know what criteria is? All bet there was maybe a little influence from the WKPP when the policy was set out. While WKPP has done some amazing dives and deserve their due credit there are however a couple of people in the organization that really piss people off.

My I propose some of us keyboard divers that would like to dive these springs form are own team and submit a application and see what happens? It more than likely would get denied but you never know.

RAL · 23rd May 2006, 02:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

My I propose some of us keyboard divers that would like to dive these springs form are own team and submit a application and see what happens? It more than likely would get denied but you never know.

Not exactly what I mean. The only change that should be implemented is that the state policy for permits needs to be changed from a "may issue" to a "must issue" to qualified groups. This should still be a fairly restricted site.
Make no mistake these are big dives that require more than casual commitment. No offence intended but I do not believe You can just fly in once in a while & pull something like this off properly (safely).

Regards RAL

sensor330 · 23rd May 2006, 03:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL)

Not exactly what I mean. The only change that should be implemented is that the state policy for permits needs to be changed from a "may issue" to a "must issue" to qualified groups. This should still be a fairly restricted site.
Make no mistake these are big dives that require more than casual commitment. No offence intended but I do not believe You can just fly in once in a while & pull something like this off properly (safely).

Regards RAL

No offence taken but I make a living diving everything from hard hats to rebreathers, and diving Rebreather's is also my obsession when I'm not at work. I do know that this dive is not something you just jump into and I didn't mean for this proposal to come off so casual either. I realize that a dive of this magnitude requires lots of training(which I'm pretty much there), planning and co-ordination. Yes, I agree with you I could not just fly there and jump right into that cave but would require several workup dives before hand. I would like to put my focus on the can do's instead of the cannot's and my proposal still stands if anyone wants to seriously pursue this. The worst we can get is no and we'll never know it we don't try.

db8us · 23rd May 2006, 06:54

In general i would say it is a pitty that the old Wakulla2 Website is not up and running.
I liked the pictures and the huge amount of BIIIG and i mean biiiig hardware installed in a natural park...
And everyone knows the outcome. If they would have proved that another team can run it as slick and safe i think we would have multiple groups diving there today.

On a site note, one of my stages deposited in a cave was drained by a fellow cave-diver, as he was not even able to reach HIS OLD end of line.
Nevertheless on the next dive we added 400m.
If we would have relied on this stage as a safety i might not be able to write these lines. We were warned by one of the divers of this a**hole via the phone.
So in general i think it is causing big !!! problems when undisciplined teams use the same cave.
Also there was this case where a diver had to use ALL of Reinhards Safeties to escape a cave.
He did not even mention it to Reinhard, nor did he ever pay the gas. Even worse Reinhard had to drive to a barn to pick up his stages, where all boltsnaps were cut off.

So we also try to stay away from other divers during a project because it compromises safety a big time.

If they can not do long dives, they try to ruin our day. It is as simple as this.

So in these days you have to a guard on site 24hours or you can never rely on your gear left in the cave, like staged scooters, tanks habitats etc.

What a shame.

Michael

Bern · 23rd May 2006, 08:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

I just got back from Florida and I have to say a lot of the politics surrounding cave diving. I understand that cave conservation and safety is the reason for it. But I think there are some influential people in the inner circle who have personal agendas that have nothing to do with the advancement of cave diving or getting other systems open.

I would have to agree, the same sort of nonsense happens in caves here. there's no real justification for locking up any site for the exclusive use of one dogmatic clique ... it's facism in another guise, which always attracts a certain personality type.

bern

DrJM · 23rd May 2006, 10:09

Michael (aka d8bus), when can we go diving in the Doux de Coly ? the EKPP have been on it for more than 3 years now ? or is that dive site gona turn into the "french wakulla" on the access autorisation point of vue ?

You know like me that others like Rick Stanton have the potential for it, you've done a superb job overthere with Reinhard but it's time for others, don't you think ?

Best Regards

Jerome

db8us · 23rd May 2006, 10:20

We will talk to the owner this summer. When we are finsihed there we do not have to worry any longer about our equipment.
The case in the Gourneyras made us afraid. It was the first case where people tried to kill us.

And who is opening the Blautopf for us ? And why did we have to defend against having to wear helmets in the Wulfbach ?

Also there are many many caves open to everyone, but they are just not as convinient.

The land-owner negotiations have to be done by each group, not by us.
By the way the landowner was also pissed about the amount of phonecalls he received and by the harsh tone when he said "no" to a specific weekend, where he wanted to celebrate a birthday on his own ground.
So if people play it nice, there might be an opportunity.

Michael

Mark Chase · 23rd May 2006, 11:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us)

In general i would say it is a pitty that the old Wakulla2 Website is not up and running.
I liked the pictures and the huge amount of BIIIG and i mean biiiig hardware installed in a natural park...
And everyone knows the outcome. If they would have proved that another team can run it as slick and safe i think we would have multiple groups diving there today.

On a site note, one of my stages deposited in a cave was drained by a fellow cave-diver, as he was not even able to reach HIS OLD end of line.
Nevertheless on the next dive we added 400m.
If we would have relied on this stage as a safety i might not be able to write these lines. We were warned by one of the divers of this a**hole via the phone.
So in general i think it is causing big !!! problems when undisciplined teams use the same cave.
Also there was this case where a diver had to use ALL of Reinhards Safeties to escape a cave.
He did not even mention it to Reinhard, nor did he ever pay the gas. Even worse Reinhard had to drive to a barn to pick up his stages, where all boltsnaps were cut off.

So we also try to stay away from other divers during a project because it compromises safety a big time.

If they can not do long dives, they try to ruin our day. It is as simple as this.

So in these days you have to a guard on site 24hours or you can never rely on your gear left in the cave, like staged scooters, tanks habitats etc.

What a shame.

Michael

I find this both believable and horrific. There are scum bags in all walks of life and unfortunately divers who will push well beyond their ability to self rescue.

If we had a big wreck that we staged equipment on we would no doubt defend it against all comers given half a chance. The lamp locker on The German Wreck was full of lamps and all the teem needed was a grab stick to get them out. When they went back they were gone. Someone had blabbed and not only given out the marks but also warned the divers they needed a grab stick to get to the lamps its the only explanation.

I have to say the DIR teams do an amazing job and display a level of group commitment and skill that most of us can only dream of. Not because we lack the ability but we just lack the committed people who are willing to do the donkey work and not get a shot at the glory dives.

Any dive like this is an incredible achievement and I wish to congratulate them all on a job well done.

ATB

Mark Chase

22nd May 2006, 23:36	#21 (permalink)
RAL Longbottom Time Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Florida Posts: 386	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat) I'm not disagreeing with that. However- that policy is set by the State of Florida. WKPP applied for and was granted access, as was Bill Stone. Theoretically, anyone whose application meets the guidelines set forth by the state should be granted access. That is, however, controlled by the state. The WKPP (regardless of the boundless conspiracy theories floating around) does not have the power to say yea or nay regarding anyone's access. There are plenty of precedents for limited public access to "public resources". The USS Monitor is an example of the same thing- occuring at the Federal level (IE there is an application and approval process to dive that wreck). I think it is unfair to characterize the limited access as being the "fault" of the WKPP. Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying the WKPP is perfect or has never done any wrong, or that certain members have never acted obnoxiously, etc. I'm just saying that the blame for this particular issue lies with the State of Florida. Well first I would like to state that I have extreme respect for the acomplishments of the WKPP. Like it or not it is clear that politics & petty beefs have screwed things up for everyone. No one minds that the WKPP has standards & insist that all members walk a tight line, in fact that is to be respected. What they mind is the " We are the only ones worthy to dive" bit, they are top notch but "they ain't the only game in town". They have excluded everyone but Stone's group( Lord there was much mashing of teeth, ripped clothing & rolling in the dirt trying to stop it) from Wakulla by convincing the powers that be that they & only they are qualified. Truth be told Stone's crew was not able to perform as well as the fine tuned WKPP machine. So what, theirs & other groups still should be allowed access. Think what some Meg, Boris or KISS teams could do given FULL access. Perhaps there in lies the rub, CCR divers riding SSs waaaaay back in Wakulla? The very thought is enough to make make some break out in a cold sweat. The stranglehold that the WKPP has had on some sites is now broken, Indian & Emerald come to mind. Who knows Wakulla & Sally Ward could be next. I think that access to some of the caves needs to be very hard to get but it should be restricted due to capability not religion. Respectfully RAL __________________ The sea does not care about you.
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23rd May 2006, 01:09	#22 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 563	Re: WKPP again My question is who advised the state of Florida on which criteria should be followed in order to dive there? Anybody know what criteria is? All bet there was maybe a little influence from the WKPP when the policy was set out. While WKPP has done some amazing dives and deserve their due credit there are however a couple of people in the organization that really piss people off. My I propose some of us keyboard divers that would like to dive these springs form are own team and submit a application and see what happens? It more than likely would get denied but you never know.
(Offline)

23rd May 2006, 02:44	#23 (permalink)
RAL Longbottom Time Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Florida Posts: 386	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) My I propose some of us keyboard divers that would like to dive these springs form are own team and submit a application and see what happens? It more than likely would get denied but you never know. Not exactly what I mean. The only change that should be implemented is that the state policy for permits needs to be changed from a "may issue" to a "must issue" to qualified groups. This should still be a fairly restricted site. Make no mistake these are big dives that require more than casual commitment. No offence intended but I do not believe You can just fly in once in a while & pull something like this off properly (safely). Regards RAL __________________ The sea does not care about you.
(Offline)

23rd May 2006, 03:52	#24 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 563	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL) Not exactly what I mean. The only change that should be implemented is that the state policy for permits needs to be changed from a "may issue" to a "must issue" to qualified groups. This should still be a fairly restricted site. Make no mistake these are big dives that require more than casual commitment. No offence intended but I do not believe You can just fly in once in a while & pull something like this off properly (safely). Regards RAL No offence taken but I make a living diving everything from hard hats to rebreathers, and diving Rebreather's is also my obsession when I'm not at work. I do know that this dive is not something you just jump into and I didn't mean for this proposal to come off so casual either. I realize that a dive of this magnitude requires lots of training(which I'm pretty much there), planning and co-ordination. Yes, I agree with you I could not just fly there and jump right into that cave but would require several workup dives before hand. I would like to put my focus on the can do's instead of the cannot's and my proposal still stands if anyone wants to seriously pursue this. The worst we can get is no and we'll never know it we don't try.
(Offline)

23rd May 2006, 06:54	#25 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 225	Re: WKPP again In general i would say it is a pitty that the old Wakulla2 Website is not up and running. I liked the pictures and the huge amount of BIIIG and i mean biiiig hardware installed in a natural park... And everyone knows the outcome. If they would have proved that another team can run it as slick and safe i think we would have multiple groups diving there today. On a site note, one of my stages deposited in a cave was drained by a fellow cave-diver, as he was not even able to reach HIS OLD end of line. Nevertheless on the next dive we added 400m. If we would have relied on this stage as a safety i might not be able to write these lines. We were warned by one of the divers of this a**hole via the phone. So in general i think it is causing big !!! problems when undisciplined teams use the same cave. Also there was this case where a diver had to use ALL of Reinhards Safeties to escape a cave. He did not even mention it to Reinhard, nor did he ever pay the gas. Even worse Reinhard had to drive to a barn to pick up his stages, where all boltsnaps were cut off. So we also try to stay away from other divers during a project because it compromises safety a big time. If they can not do long dives, they try to ruin our day. It is as simple as this. So in these days you have to a guard on site 24hours or you can never rely on your gear left in the cave, like staged scooters, tanks habitats etc. What a shame. Michael
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23rd May 2006, 08:13	#26 (permalink)
Bern New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1	Re: It's a DIR thing Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) I just got back from Florida and I have to say a lot of the politics surrounding cave diving. I understand that cave conservation and safety is the reason for it. But I think there are some influential people in the inner circle who have personal agendas that have nothing to do with the advancement of cave diving or getting other systems open. I would have to agree, the same sort of nonsense happens in caves here. there's no real justification for locking up any site for the exclusive use of one dogmatic clique ... it's facism in another guise, which always attracts a certain personality type. bern
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23rd May 2006, 10:09	#27 (permalink)
DrJM Deep Cave Explorer Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: May 2005 Location: France Posts: 344	Re: WKPP again Michael (aka d8bus), when can we go diving in the Doux de Coly ? the EKPP have been on it for more than 3 years now ? or is that dive site gona turn into the "french wakulla" on the access autorisation point of vue ? You know like me that others like Rick Stanton have the potential for it, you've done a superb job overthere with Reinhard but it's time for others, don't you think ? Best Regards Jerome __________________ www.snoopyloop.com Deep Cave Exploration
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23rd May 2006, 10:20	#28 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 225	Re: WKPP again We will talk to the owner this summer. When we are finsihed there we do not have to worry any longer about our equipment. The case in the Gourneyras made us afraid. It was the first case where people tried to kill us. And who is opening the Blautopf for us ? And why did we have to defend against having to wear helmets in the Wulfbach ? Also there are many many caves open to everyone, but they are just not as convinient. The land-owner negotiations have to be done by each group, not by us. By the way the landowner was also pissed about the amount of phonecalls he received and by the harsh tone when he said "no" to a specific weekend, where he wanted to celebrate a birthday on his own ground. So if people play it nice, there might be an opportunity. Michael
(Offline)

23rd May 2006, 11:05	#29 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,561	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us) In general i would say it is a pitty that the old Wakulla2 Website is not up and running. I liked the pictures and the huge amount of BIIIG and i mean biiiig hardware installed in a natural park... And everyone knows the outcome. If they would have proved that another team can run it as slick and safe i think we would have multiple groups diving there today. On a site note, one of my stages deposited in a cave was drained by a fellow cave-diver, as he was not even able to reach HIS OLD end of line. Nevertheless on the next dive we added 400m. If we would have relied on this stage as a safety i might not be able to write these lines. We were warned by one of the divers of this ahole via the phone. So in general i think it is causing big !!! problems when undisciplined teams use the same cave. Also there was this case where a diver had to use ALL of Reinhards Safeties to escape a cave. He did not even mention it to Reinhard, nor did he ever pay the gas. Even worse Reinhard had to drive to a barn to pick up his stages, where all boltsnaps were cut off. So we also try to stay away from other divers during a project because it compromises safety a big time. If they can not do long dives, they try to ruin our day. It is as simple as this. So in these days you have to a guard on site 24hours or you can never rely on your gear left in the cave, like staged scooters, tanks habitats etc. What a shame. Michael I find this both believable and horrific. There are scum bags in all walks of life and unfortunately divers who will push well beyond their ability to self rescue. If we had a big wreck that we staged equipment on we would no doubt defend it against all comers given half a chance. The lamp locker on The German Wreck was full of lamps and all the teem needed was a grab stick to get them out. When they went back they were gone. Someone had blabbed and not only given out the marks but also warned the divers they needed a grab stick to get to the lamps its the only explanation. I have to say the DIR teams do an amazing job and display a level of group commitment and skill that most of us can only dream of. Not because we lack the ability but we just lack the committed people who are willing to do the donkey work and not get a shot at the glory dives. Any dive like this is an incredible achievement and I wish to congratulate them all on a job well done. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System**
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