WKPP again

***caveseeker7*** · 22nd May 2006, 17:22

If they were even handed in granting access it would be one thing.
But this is public land, not private property, and they're selective,
that's quite another.

hchoat · 22nd May 2006, 17:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

If they were even handed in granting access it would be one thing.
But this is public land, not private property, and they're selective,
that's quite another.

Well... not for nothin, but...

I would be simply amazed to see a couple guys go in and do one of these dives. The amount of planning and co-ordination involved is staggering. In addition- the divers themselves have to be willing to commit to speding 18 or more hours in the water for dives of the magnitude that JJ and Casey did this weekend. That's not to say that others aren't willing or capable of doing so, but it is a consideration. Further, over the years the WKPP has put in place numerous bits of infrastructure (habitats and troughs) and has made working during normal park hours with minimal disruption a art form. WKPP is able to operate without closing sections of beach or restricting access to the swimming area- something that the Bill Stone project was unable to do.

***caveseeker7*** · 22nd May 2006, 18:18

I can only imagine that the preperations and logistics for such an eandeavour are mind boggling.

Nevertheless I remember Curt Bowen for example posting that he would like to dive Wakulla but can't. That's where I see the problem. Now I can understand if they won't let Bozanic in with his sledge hammer. But here you have a guy whose qualifications and resumee are certainly in order, who's credentials are accepted by the state and local law enforcement agencies for searching and recovering divers from caves, who is a Florida resident and tax payer, who probably has or easily enough could get press credentails that get any other journalist into restricted areas of all sorts, yet he's not allowed to dive there.

Somehow there seems to be something wrong with that picture ...

If the Park Service makes demands regarding the impact on park operation, safety etc I have no problem. But if they restrict access to just one tightly knit group of divers that is excluding most everyone based on such criteria as the manufacturer of the UBA used (which incidentally happens to be co-owned by one of the push divers and conveniently sold in the store owned by both them) there is something seriously wrong.

Out here we have the Channel Islands National Park. There would be an outcry of rage if the NPS would close it to all divers but the select DIR lot.

As for Stone's expeditions, those were years ago and I have no idea if he had any agreement regarding park operations or if he broke it. What I do know is that the data he brought back with the Wallmapper isn't like anything I had ever seen. And a far cry from the lines drawn on paper based on compass readings and line measurements that came before and have come since. You gotta give the guy credit where credit is due.

hchoat · 22nd May 2006, 18:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

I can only imagine that the preperations and logistics for such an eandeavour are mind boggling.

Nevertheless I remember Curt Bowen for example posting that he would like to dive Wakulla but can't. That's where I see the problem. Now I can understand if they won't let Bozanic in with his sledge hammer. But here you have a guy whose qualifications and resumee are certainly in order, who's credentials are accepted by the state and local law enforcement agencies for searching and recovering divers from caves, who is a Florida resident and tax payer, who probably has or easily enough could get press credentails that get any other journalist into restricted areas of all sorts, yet he's not allowed to dive there.

Somehow there seems to be something wrong with that picture ...

If the Park Service makes demands regarding the impact on park operation, safety etc I have no problem. But if they restrict access to just one tightly knit group of divers that is excluding most everyone based on such criteria as the manufacturer of the UBA used (which incidentally happens to be co-owned by one of the push divers and conveniently sold in the store owned by both them) there is something seriously wrong.

Out here we have the Channel Islands National Park. There would be an outcry of rage if the NPS would close it to all divers but the select DIR lot.

As for Stone's expeditions, those were years ago and I have no idea if he had any agreement regarding park operations or if he broke it. What I do know is that the data he brought back with the Wallmapper isn't like anything I had ever seen. And a far cry from the lines drawn on paper based on compass readings and line measurements that came before and have come since. You gotta give the guy credit where credit is due.

Just to clarify-

The WKPP does not and never has restricted it's members to the use of any brand of equipment. Equipment used must meet certain criteria, and Halcyon does- as do many products made by many other companies (and used in the WKPP). Most people like to harp on the requirement that all members use the same configuration, etc. Please consider that we have a large number of individuals all trying to accomplish a certain set of goals for a given day. If each person, and that person's equipment are (for the most part) "interchangeable" it makes things go much more smoothly. The same thing happens in lots of industrys.

As to the restrictions on who can dive there- I would say that is an issue to be taken up with the State of Florida.

I don't care to rehash all these arguements for the umpteenth time, so let's just let it go at that.

***caveseeker7*** · 22nd May 2006, 18:44

I agree that the access issue is a problem with the park service, not the dive team.
But regarding the rebreathers you're wrong. What other manufacturer meets the criteria?
Rethorical question, at that I will let it go.

hchoat · 22nd May 2006, 20:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

I agree that the access issue is a problem with the park service, not the dive team.
But regarding the rebreathers you're wrong. What other manufacturer meets the criteria?
Rethorical question, at that I will let it go.

You are correct with the issue of the Rebreather. That and the scooters, however, are the ONLY pieces of equipment that require a specific brand. It comes down to this- the powers that be decided that nothing on the market fit the needs of the team, so they developed something that they felt did. For purposes of standardization, we all dive the same thing. Ergo- you use a Gavin and/ or an RB80. There are only about 6 team members using Rebreather's at the moment. That dopesn't mean that there aren't others who don't dive them and own personal units, but the vast majority of the members are OC divers- that is never going to change. It's all because of the "philosophy" behind it.

Realisitically- it's a private club. If you want to join and participate, you follow the club "rules". I have never understood why those who don't wish to be part of the "club" feel the need to complain about the "rules".

**trob09** · 22nd May 2006, 20:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat)

Realisitically- it's a private club. If you want to join and participate, you follow the club "rules". I have never understood why those who don't wish to be part of the "club" feel the need to complain about the "rules".

For me, the issue is access. Granted, I am not qualified to do the dive completed recently, but I'd like to believe that I have the opportunity to try.

In the end, the private club determines who has access to public property. The private club has done some incredible dives, but it's a public playground.

hchoat · 22nd May 2006, 20:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

For me, the issue is access. Granted, I am not qualified to do the dive completed recently, but I'd like to believe that I have the opportunity to try.

In the end, the private club determines who has access to public property. The private club has done some incredible dives, but it's a public playground.

I'm not disagreeing with that. However- that policy is set by the State of Florida. WKPP applied for and was granted access, as was Bill Stone. Theoretically, anyone whose application meets the guidelines set forth by the state *should* be granted access. That is, however, controlled by the state. The WKPP (regardless of the boundless conspiracy theories floating around) does not have the power to say yea or nay regarding anyone's access. There are plenty of precedents for limited public access to "public resources". The USS Monitor is an example of the same thing- occuring at the Federal level (IE there is an application and approval process to dive that wreck). I think it is unfair to characterize the limited access as being the "fault" of the WKPP. Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying the WKPP is perfect or has never done any wrong, or that certain members have never acted obnoxiously, etc. I'm just saying that the blame for this particular issue lies with the State of Florida.

***caveseeker7*** · 22nd May 2006, 20:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

In the end, the private club determines who has access to public property. The private club has done some incredible dives, but it's a public playground.

The private club only decides who can join and who will support, dive, push etc.

The problem is the park service allowing only that one private club to dive the public land. That is the problem, and as Heather pointed out, needs to be adressed with the
park service.

You beat me to that one, Heather.

Joe · 22nd May 2006, 21:55

I believe *anyone* has the option of forming another "private club" & filing for the permits etc. etc. The real issue is that it is a long, arduous process & no one wants to do it. Everyone wants things to change but none are willing to put forth the effort to make it happen. Being able to go dive Wakulla on a whim isn't going to happen without a huge effort over a long period of time. Most of us have other things to do.

The real accomplishment of the WKPP lies in its organizational skills because it takes a hell of a lot more than a skilled diver to accomplish what they have done.

The WKPP didn't close the caves. Appathy on the part of the cave community and on the part of the voting public got them closed. I find it odd the we have many public lands in the US that are closed to the public that owns them and we just blindly accept it. Until we change the concept that the Gov't. has the duty of protecting you from yourself things will never change.

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

The private club only decides who can join and who will support, dive, push etc.

The problem is the park service allowing only that one private club to dive the public land. That is the problem, and as Heather pointed out, needs to be adressed with the
park service.

You beat me to that one, Heather.

22nd May 2006, 17:22	#11 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: It's a DIR thing If they were even handed in granting access it would be one thing. But this is public land, not private property, and they're selective, that's quite another. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
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22nd May 2006, 17:42	#12 (permalink)
hchoat Resident Selkie Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL- USA Posts: 227	Re: It's a DIR thing Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) If they were even handed in granting access it would be one thing. But this is public land, not private property, and they're selective, that's quite another. Well... not for nothin, but... I would be simply amazed to see a couple guys go in and do one of these dives. The amount of planning and co-ordination involved is staggering. In addition- the divers themselves have to be willing to commit to speding 18 or more hours in the water for dives of the magnitude that JJ and Casey did this weekend. That's not to say that others aren't willing or capable of doing so, but it is a consideration. Further, over the years the WKPP has put in place numerous bits of infrastructure (habitats and troughs) and has made working during normal park hours with minimal disruption a art form. WKPP is able to operate without closing sections of beach or restricting access to the swimming area- something that the Bill Stone project was unable to do. __________________ Duct tape is like the force... it has a light side and dark side, and it holds the universe together.
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 18:18	#13 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	I can only imagine that the preperations and logistics for such an eandeavour are mind boggling. Nevertheless I remember Curt Bowen for example posting that he would like to dive Wakulla but can't. That's where I see the problem. Now I can understand if they won't let Bozanic in with his sledge hammer. But here you have a guy whose qualifications and resumee are certainly in order, who's credentials are accepted by the state and local law enforcement agencies for searching and recovering divers from caves, who is a Florida resident and tax payer, who probably has or easily enough could get press credentails that get any other journalist into restricted areas of all sorts, yet he's not allowed to dive there. Somehow there seems to be something wrong with that picture ... If the Park Service makes demands regarding the impact on park operation, safety etc I have no problem. But if they restrict access to just one tightly knit group of divers that is excluding most everyone based on such criteria as the manufacturer of the UBA used (which incidentally happens to be co-owned by one of the push divers and conveniently sold in the store owned by both them) there is something seriously wrong. Out here we have the Channel Islands National Park. There would be an outcry of rage if the NPS would close it to all divers but the select DIR lot. As for Stone's expeditions, those were years ago and I have no idea if he had any agreement regarding park operations or if he broke it. What I do know is that the data he brought back with the Wallmapper isn't like anything I had ever seen. And a far cry from the lines drawn on paper based on compass readings and line measurements that came before and have come since. You gotta give the guy credit where credit is due. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 22nd May 2006 at 18:21.
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 18:28	#14 (permalink)
hchoat Resident Selkie Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL- USA Posts: 227	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) I can only imagine that the preperations and logistics for such an eandeavour are mind boggling. Nevertheless I remember Curt Bowen for example posting that he would like to dive Wakulla but can't. That's where I see the problem. Now I can understand if they won't let Bozanic in with his sledge hammer. But here you have a guy whose qualifications and resumee are certainly in order, who's credentials are accepted by the state and local law enforcement agencies for searching and recovering divers from caves, who is a Florida resident and tax payer, who probably has or easily enough could get press credentails that get any other journalist into restricted areas of all sorts, yet he's not allowed to dive there. Somehow there seems to be something wrong with that picture ... If the Park Service makes demands regarding the impact on park operation, safety etc I have no problem. But if they restrict access to just one tightly knit group of divers that is excluding most everyone based on such criteria as the manufacturer of the UBA used (which incidentally happens to be co-owned by one of the push divers and conveniently sold in the store owned by both them) there is something seriously wrong. Out here we have the Channel Islands National Park. There would be an outcry of rage if the NPS would close it to all divers but the select DIR lot. As for Stone's expeditions, those were years ago and I have no idea if he had any agreement regarding park operations or if he broke it. What I do know is that the data he brought back with the Wallmapper isn't like anything I had ever seen. And a far cry from the lines drawn on paper based on compass readings and line measurements that came before and have come since. You gotta give the guy credit where credit is due. Just to clarify- The WKPP does not and never has restricted it's members to the use of any brand of equipment. Equipment used must meet certain criteria, and Halcyon does- as do many products made by many other companies (and used in the WKPP). Most people like to harp on the requirement that all members use the same configuration, etc. Please consider that we have a large number of individuals all trying to accomplish a certain set of goals for a given day. If each person, and that person's equipment are (for the most part) "interchangeable" it makes things go much more smoothly. The same thing happens in lots of industrys. As to the restrictions on who can dive there- I would say that is an issue to be taken up with the State of Florida. I don't care to rehash all these arguements for the umpteenth time, so let's just let it go at that. __________________ Duct tape is like the force... it has a light side and dark side, and it holds the universe together.
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 18:44	#15 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: WKPP again I agree that the access issue is a problem with the park service, not the dive team. But regarding the rebreathers you're wrong. What other manufacturer meets the criteria? Rethorical question, at that I will let it go. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 20:17	#16 (permalink)
hchoat Resident Selkie Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL- USA Posts: 227	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) I agree that the access issue is a problem with the park service, not the dive team. But regarding the rebreathers you're wrong. What other manufacturer meets the criteria? Rethorical question, at that I will let it go. You are correct with the issue of the Rebreather. That and the scooters, however, are the ONLY pieces of equipment that require a specific brand. It comes down to this- the powers that be decided that nothing on the market fit the needs of the team, so they developed something that they felt did. For purposes of standardization, we all dive the same thing. Ergo- you use a Gavin and/ or an RB80. There are only about 6 team members using Rebreather's at the moment. That dopesn't mean that there aren't others who don't dive them and own personal units, but the vast majority of the members are OC divers- that is never going to change. It's all because of the "philosophy" behind it. Realisitically- it's a private club. If you want to join and participate, you follow the club "rules". I have never understood why those who don't wish to be part of the "club" feel the need to complain about the "rules". __________________ Duct tape is like the force... it has a light side and dark side, and it holds the universe together.
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 20:29	#17 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 699	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat) Realisitically- it's a private club. If you want to join and participate, you follow the club "rules". I have never understood why those who don't wish to be part of the "club" feel the need to complain about the "rules". For me, the issue is access. Granted, I am not qualified to do the dive completed recently, but I'd like to believe that I have the opportunity to try. In the end, the private club determines who has access to public property. The private club has done some incredible dives, but it's a public playground.
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 20:36	#18 (permalink)
hchoat Resident Selkie Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL- USA Posts: 227	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) For me, the issue is access. Granted, I am not qualified to do the dive completed recently, but I'd like to believe that I have the opportunity to try. In the end, the private club determines who has access to public property. The private club has done some incredible dives, but it's a public playground. I'm not disagreeing with that. However- that policy is set by the State of Florida. WKPP applied for and was granted access, as was Bill Stone. Theoretically, anyone whose application meets the guidelines set forth by the state should be granted access. That is, however, controlled by the state. The WKPP (regardless of the boundless conspiracy theories floating around) does not have the power to say yea or nay regarding anyone's access. There are plenty of precedents for limited public access to "public resources". The USS Monitor is an example of the same thing- occuring at the Federal level (IE there is an application and approval process to dive that wreck). I think it is unfair to characterize the limited access as being the "fault" of the WKPP. Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying the WKPP is perfect or has never done any wrong, or that certain members have never acted obnoxiously, etc. I'm just saying that the blame for this particular issue lies with the State of Florida. __________________ Duct tape is like the force... it has a light side and dark side, and it holds the universe together.
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 20:39	#19 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: WKPP again Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) In the end, the private club determines who has access to public property. The private club has done some incredible dives, but it's a public playground. The private club only decides who can join and who will support, dive, push etc. The problem is the park service allowing only that one private club to dive the public land. That is the problem, and as Heather pointed out, needs to be adressed with the park service. You beat me to that one, Heather. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 22nd May 2006 at 20:44.
(Offline)

22nd May 2006, 21:55	#20 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 248	Re: WKPP again I believe anyone has the option of forming another "private club" & filing for the permits etc. etc. The real issue is that it is a long, arduous process & no one wants to do it. Everyone wants things to change but none are willing to put forth the effort to make it happen. Being able to go dive Wakulla on a whim isn't going to happen without a huge effort over a long period of time. Most of us have other things to do. The real accomplishment of the WKPP lies in its organizational skills because it takes a hell of a lot more than a skilled diver to accomplish what they have done. The WKPP didn't close the caves. Appathy on the part of the cave community and on the part of the voting public got them closed. I find it odd the we have many public lands in the US that are closed to the public that owns them and we just blindly accept it. Until we change the concept that the Gov't. has the duty of protecting you from yourself things will never change. Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) The private club only decides who can join and who will support, dive, push etc. The problem is the park service allowing only that one private club to dive the public land. That is the problem, and as Heather pointed out, needs to be adressed with the park service. You beat me to that one, Heather.
(Offline)

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