Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers?

Benthic · 21st November 2007, 02:45

Methinks that somewhere along the line Captain Ron got his wee tiny feelings hurt and now he can't get over it. Personally I think the idea of Ron Micjan suggesting that anyone is elitist or arrogant is hilarious.

Brian

Drmike · 21st November 2007, 02:59

If i do a charter and Ive got people comming on board I dont know I get 3 possibilites

Im told they are

1) Rebreather divers
2) OC divers
3) DIR divers

Honestly if I hear they are 1) or 2) Im always concerned that they may be strokes (there are a lot of Rebreather divers around who are not comfortable in the water, diving f_cked up gear and with poor skils) They are a big question mark - you dont know what your getting.

If I hear they are 3) I usually feel happier that they wont die or do anything stupid. I know what Im getting. They wont be doing anything at all like big dives.. But have to say that generally they wont be as much fun though as they do keep themselves to themselves and generally alienate everyone on board :-)

RonMicjan · 21st November 2007, 05:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

exactly Ron, you are open to any ideas BUT theirs.

What you call a closed mind some would call commonality of technique, skills and attitude, what some call elitest attitude some would call justified pride in achievements and differentiation from what they see as unsafe divers

now that was an amazing twist of words if I have ever heard such, well done sir, my hat is tipped to you.... bout fell out of the chair ROFL.

truly you are a wordsmith Mike!

RonMicjan · 21st November 2007, 05:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic)

Methinks that somewhere along the line Captain Ron got his wee tiny feelings hurt and now he can't get over it. Personally I think the idea of Ron Micjan suggesting that anyone is elitist or arrogant is hilarious.

Brian

Brian, since I have only met you one time, I cannot be sure you are serious or just yanking my chain, but if you are serious, the only answer i can give you is, dude, you have only met me one time, and its obvious you dont know me. However, my door is open, come out out to the pacific for some awesome diving, bring Heather along too, guaranteed good times to be had by all. Dont forget to pack the drysuit undies, we dive cold freaking water out here.

Mark Chase · 21st November 2007, 07:05

This is Bob Cooper. A well known and dedicated DIR diver

his Is Andy Carrol He used to post as Wet Lettuce. He gave up on interweb diving but he is still doing caves with Bob and others. He was a bit like me in that he was a rabid DIR supporter when i was a rabid anti DIR noise.

They wanted to have a go on CCR so we arranged a meet and a try dive with Andyp and my units.

They then rigged us up in DIR kit and we had a go.

I have dived with Bob as a buddy and Bob and Andy taught me what little i know about scootering. Bob lent me a Gavin FOC to dive Malian Head this year. I did line laying with Bob and Andy and i did skills prep for DIRF with Clare Gledhill (now a GUE instructor) and All (her regular buddy) Then Garf and Howard Payne are worthy of a mention. They are often to be found on our boats. There is a possibility of a couple of DIR divers on our Delta gigs next year.

These divers have helped me a lot over the years and they are a right laugh on the boats.

Dont tar the whole organisatin with the same brush.

ATB

Mark

PS Note smole on Andy's face

Drmike · 21st November 2007, 07:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Dont tar the whole organisatin with the same brush.

oh the sweet hypocrisy of it all ! lol!

Pot meet kettle

MattDuke · 21st November 2007, 09:43

Very interesting thread, and very interesting people who will discuss the topic! What a great panel of experts.

I'd just like to say that the vast majority of experienced GUE divers I mix with in Norway, have heaps of respect for the people on that list.

The single most important improvement for me in the past few years, has been do get rid of the "All deep dives are solo dives" and replace with, "All dives are team dives. Together we can solve one hell of a lot of problems!"

Self help and training are never going to be replaced with a team, we must continue to have the skills to resolve things alone, but I think the GUE teaching really does open up some great teamskill areas, and it makes it possible to take Open Circuit diving to a level that I would have previously thought was only for eCCR divers.

My regular buddies and I did the DIR-F course despite having training from IANTD/TDI/PSA and then they went on to Tech 1, ( I was out, as we had a new baby) and I'll be doing Tech 1 next season.

But If I lived in the UK I think this tranisition would have been harder. For me these factors are important:

- Large ammount of Helium J's in the team. Regular access to Stavanger for more.
- Oxygen in large supply, for almost free
- Dive sites that are often shore based, max 70m on walls
- Dives sites that are weather protected and predictable
- High average income
- Personal limit of max 30minutes for 60+m bottom time.

I think that if GUE did come in and adopt eCCR it would be a benefit for diving. They have some smart ideas, and thats a good thing.

Do I dive 100% DIR? No.

Do I think diving 95% DIR has improved my safety? Yes.

With that group of experts debating the issue we have a great chance to share information, remove misconceptions and agree on perhaps a way forwards to improve safety.

Should be interesting. The anti/pro DIR rantings should be left to the past. Air is so ninties, and so is that religious crap.

Matt.

Mark Chase · 21st November 2007, 10:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

oh the sweet hypocrisy of it all ! lol!

Pot meet kettle

I am not exactly sure what you mean Mike but if you eluding to my often heated debates with GUE members then all i can say is I reserve the right to debate any diving methodology. Occasionally at the end of the debate I have learned something or changed my mind.

Christ, I have even taken your advice after arguing with you

ATB

Mark

lizardland · 21st November 2007, 10:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by MattDuke)

I think that if GUE did come in and adopt eCCR it would be a benefit for diving. They have some smart ideas, and thats a good thing.

The big question that I'm not sure if anyone has asked (as life is to short to go through all this thread to check) is who in GUE is going to set the standard? Unless there are a lot of people CCR diving in disguise then who has the expertise to say "this is the way to dive CCR safely"? I don't tend to follow the DIR personality cult but from my limited view there's no-one with current CCR experience. By "current" I mean regularly diving a CCR to the limits that it's use is justifiable (within the DIR outlook).

They're going to have to either get on a steep learning curve, start paying some CCR "strokes" as consultants or the first GUE/CCR course is going to be many years off. JJ may be a very experienced SCR diver but if he stands up and starts telling the world how to dive a CCR any time in the next year or two then I think most people's reaction will end in "off".

I've learned a lot that I've applied to my diving from DIR but the only reason I've even considered any of it is that it has a very strong proven background. Why would I listen to them about CCR?

Cheers,

Stuart

MattDuke · 21st November 2007, 11:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I've learned a lot that I've applied to my diving from DIR but the only reason I've even considered any of it is that it has a very strong proven background. Why would I listen to them about CCR?

Cheers,

Stuart

I think that the reason will be that the vast majority of the information will be non specific to CCR.

The eCCR stuff itself is interesting, and I think the panel of experts called to the meeting represents just that. An open door to the people who use the kit regularly to give their views.

21st November 2007, 02:45	#71 (permalink)
Benthic MEGalomaniac Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pensacola, FL USA Posts: 222	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Methinks that somewhere along the line Captain Ron got his wee tiny feelings hurt and now he can't get over it. Personally I think the idea of Ron Micjan suggesting that anyone is elitist or arrogant is hilarious. Brian __________________ Well lit rooms will not repel determined beer ninjas.
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21st November 2007, 02:59	#72 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? If i do a charter and Ive got people comming on board I dont know I get 3 possibilites Im told they are 1) Rebreather divers 2) OC divers 3) DIR divers Honestly if I hear they are 1) or 2) Im always concerned that they may be strokes (there are a lot of Rebreather divers around who are not comfortable in the water, diving f_cked up gear and with poor skils) They are a big question mark - you dont know what your getting. If I hear they are 3) I usually feel happier that they wont die or do anything stupid. I know what Im getting. They wont be doing anything at all like big dives.. But have to say that generally they wont be as much fun though as they do keep themselves to themselves and generally alienate everyone on board :-) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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21st November 2007, 05:23	#73 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,083	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) exactly Ron, you are open to any ideas BUT theirs. What you call a closed mind some would call commonality of technique, skills and attitude, what some call elitest attitude some would call justified pride in achievements and differentiation from what they see as unsafe divers now that was an amazing twist of words if I have ever heard such, well done sir, my hat is tipped to you.... bout fell out of the chair ROFL. truly you are a wordsmith Mike! __________________ Ron "Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you different, is selling something", The Dread Pirate Wesley. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc.
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21st November 2007, 05:33	#74 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,083	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic) Methinks that somewhere along the line Captain Ron got his wee tiny feelings hurt and now he can't get over it. Personally I think the idea of Ron Micjan suggesting that anyone is elitist or arrogant is hilarious. Brian Brian, since I have only met you one time, I cannot be sure you are serious or just yanking my chain, but if you are serious, the only answer i can give you is, dude, you have only met me one time, and its obvious you dont know me. However, my door is open, come out out to the pacific for some awesome diving, bring Heather along too, guaranteed good times to be had by all. Dont forget to pack the drysuit undies, we dive cold freaking water out here. __________________ Ron "Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you different, is selling something", The Dread Pirate Wesley. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 07:05	#75 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,564	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? This is Bob Cooper. A well known and dedicated DIR diver his Is Andy Carrol He used to post as Wet Lettuce. He gave up on interweb diving but he is still doing caves with Bob and others. He was a bit like me in that he was a rabid DIR supporter when i was a rabid anti DIR noise. They wanted to have a go on CCR so we arranged a meet and a try dive with Andyp and my units. They then rigged us up in DIR kit and we had a go. I have dived with Bob as a buddy and Bob and Andy taught me what little i know about scootering. Bob lent me a Gavin FOC to dive Malian Head this year. I did line laying with Bob and Andy and i did skills prep for DIRF with Clare Gledhill (now a GUE instructor) and All (her regular buddy) Then Garf and Howard Payne are worthy of a mention. They are often to be found on our boats. There is a possibility of a couple of DIR divers on our Delta gigs next year. These divers have helped me a lot over the years and they are a right laugh on the boats. Dont tar the whole organisatin with the same brush. ATB Mark PS Note smole on Andy's face __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System Last edited by Mark Chase : 21st November 2007 at 07:09.
(Online)

21st November 2007, 07:11	#76 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Dont tar the whole organisatin with the same brush. oh the sweet hypocrisy of it all ! lol! Pot meet kettle __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 09:43	#77 (permalink)
MattDuke New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 24	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Very interesting thread, and very interesting people who will discuss the topic! What a great panel of experts. I'd just like to say that the vast majority of experienced GUE divers I mix with in Norway, have heaps of respect for the people on that list. The single most important improvement for me in the past few years, has been do get rid of the "All deep dives are solo dives" and replace with, "All dives are team dives. Together we can solve one hell of a lot of problems!" Self help and training are never going to be replaced with a team, we must continue to have the skills to resolve things alone, but I think the GUE teaching really does open up some great teamskill areas, and it makes it possible to take Open Circuit diving to a level that I would have previously thought was only for eCCR divers. My regular buddies and I did the DIR-F course despite having training from IANTD/TDI/PSA and then they went on to Tech 1, ( I was out, as we had a new baby) and I'll be doing Tech 1 next season. But If I lived in the UK I think this tranisition would have been harder. For me these factors are important: - Large ammount of Helium J's in the team. Regular access to Stavanger for more. - Oxygen in large supply, for almost free - Dive sites that are often shore based, max 70m on walls - Dives sites that are weather protected and predictable - High average income - Personal limit of max 30minutes for 60+m bottom time. I think that if GUE did come in and adopt eCCR it would be a benefit for diving. They have some smart ideas, and thats a good thing. Do I dive 100% DIR? No. Do I think diving 95% DIR has improved my safety? Yes. With that group of experts debating the issue we have a great chance to share information, remove misconceptions and agree on perhaps a way forwards to improve safety. Should be interesting. The anti/pro DIR rantings should be left to the past. Air is so ninties, and so is that religious crap. Matt. __________________ Born 1975 Started Diving 1984 Started CCR Diving 2006. Stopped CCR Diving 2006. CCR isn't for everyone, but it was a lot of fun trying.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 10:40	#78 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,564	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) oh the sweet hypocrisy of it all ! lol! Pot meet kettle I am not exactly sure what you mean Mike but if you eluding to my often heated debates with GUE members then all i can say is I reserve the right to debate any diving methodology. Occasionally at the end of the debate I have learned something or changed my mind. Christ, I have even taken your advice after arguing with you ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

21st November 2007, 10:50	#79 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,256	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by MattDuke) I think that if GUE did come in and adopt eCCR it would be a benefit for diving. They have some smart ideas, and thats a good thing. The big question that I'm not sure if anyone has asked (as life is to short to go through all this thread to check) is who in GUE is going to set the standard? Unless there are a lot of people CCR diving in disguise then who has the expertise to say "this is the way to dive CCR safely"? I don't tend to follow the DIR personality cult but from my limited view there's no-one with current CCR experience. By "current" I mean regularly diving a CCR to the limits that it's use is justifiable (within the DIR outlook). They're going to have to either get on a steep learning curve, start paying some CCR "strokes" as consultants or the first GUE/CCR course is going to be many years off. JJ may be a very experienced SCR diver but if he stands up and starts telling the world how to dive a CCR any time in the next year or two then I think most people's reaction will end in "off". I've learned a lot that I've applied to my diving from DIR but the only reason I've even considered any of it is that it has a very strong proven background. Why would I listen to them about CCR? Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f**ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler Last edited by lizardland : 21st November 2007 at 10:53.*
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21st November 2007, 11:08	#80 (permalink)
MattDuke New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 24	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I've learned a lot that I've applied to my diving from DIR but the only reason I've even considered any of it is that it has a very strong proven background. Why would I listen to them about CCR? Cheers, Stuart I think that the reason will be that the vast majority of the information will be non specific to CCR. The eCCR stuff itself is interesting, and I think the panel of experts called to the meeting represents just that. An open door to the people who use the kit regularly to give their views. __________________ Born 1975 Started Diving 1984 Started CCR Diving 2006. Stopped CCR Diving 2006. CCR isn't for everyone, but it was a lot of fun trying.
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