Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers?

graham_hk · 20th November 2007, 00:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Er guys you two are exhibiting the exact behavior your are moaning about

Grahams been there done that with ccrs and has extensive experience of both sides of the fence (ccrs/gue) - can you two say the same??

Thanks Mike

I fail to see how any of my posts had attitude - I did prod Chasey about diving wrecks but that was in reference to his upcoming cave class.

Ron - tell you what, if you think I am not a thinking diver why don't you sign up for the most basic GUE course and let us us know how you got on.

Personally I like diving with like minded divers whose gear I know and more importantly I know how they are likely to respond to a problem. I like diving with plenty of gas and having options to bailout. I have only found this with GUE YMMV. I can't argue about the logistics and savings of CCR - I used to enjoy them for all the reasons stated here its just now, for me, they don't outweigh the draw backs. I do 50-100 trimix dives a year - we are starting to look at the 90m + range and thats why I've got back to rebreathers.

If you check my frist post you will see that I agree CCR has a niche for ocean bounce dives.

Graham

RonMicjan · 20th November 2007, 00:33

A buddy and I were going to sign up for the fundies course, just for the fun and to see if there was things I was missing in my training regime. Then I discovered that the 3 day course was $700. OK, I have already been through OC intro to cave, and full CCR cave (by Matt at protec Mexico) I have over 500 hours on CCR, with about half that being on mix, and have no problem holding buoyancy, trim, helo turns and can even back up w/o trashing the viz, someone explain to me what else I need, and why I need to learn it from GUE?

My problem with the DIR crowd has never been the quality or level of training, its always been with the attitude the DIR's have sent out. The rules smack of eliteism. Anyone who tells me, 'there is only one way to do something, and its my way" this is a non thinking person. For some who literally should not be thinking, this is probably a good thing. Some of the plumbing changes folks have done to thier CCR's are a good example, some folks NEED to be told how to do something, because what they would come up with would be dangerous.

I learn by doing, figuring out what works by trying it out, thinking through the possibilities, reading other accounts (like Dr 9 live Mike) and working up to the big dives. Look at the progression on my CCR dolphin project, the first unit looked like crap, and I dived it very conservativly, later as the unit got more streamlined and the plumbing more secure I took it deeper and farther until I realized that i was near its limits, then went to a serious CCR. I learned a lot more doing it that way, than having a GUI Preacher tell me the party line and that I will be ostrasized if I dont do it thier way.

Sure the system works, agreed, but I prefer the non-nazi approach. Some folks gravitate toward structure, join the army, become a mormon, drink the kool-aid, or become GUE instructors/divers.

GUE/DIR would be a lot farther along if it were not for GI3, who ruined it for a lot of folks, he attracted the nazi types to diving and although he has gone on to other pastures, the legacy he left behind will be long in dispursing.

Some of this is a bit tongue in cheek, if you can tell the difference, then there is probably hope for you.

petey1 · 20th November 2007, 01:41

Holy Shit I am on the ground rolling Ron because basically you just went into the barn with a big stick and did some Sheep bashing and that's what they are sheep(DIR)

netmage · 20th November 2007, 01:52

Every DIR discussion degenerates into mindless sheep/nazi threads... Its obvious no one wants move beyond GI3... they are simply having too much fun rehashing the same tired shit...

petey1 · 20th November 2007, 02:00

waaa i got butt rash waaa

Drmike · 20th November 2007, 02:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

A buddy and I were going to sign up for the fundies course, just for the fun and to see if there was things I was missing in my training regime. Then I discovered that the 3 day course was $700. OK, I have already been through OC intro to cave, and full CCR cave (by Matt at protec Mexico) I have over 500 hours on CCR, with about half that being on mix, and have no problem holding buoyancy, trim, helo turns and can even back up w/o trashing the viz, someone explain to me what else I need, and why I need to learn it from GUE?

My problem with the DIR crowd has never been the quality or level of training, its always been with the attitude the DIR's have sent out. The rules smack of eliteism. Anyone who tells me, 'there is only one way to do something, and its my way" this is a non thinking person. For some who literally should not be thinking, this is probably a good thing. Some of the plumbing changes folks have done to thier CCR's are a good example, some folks NEED to be told how to do something, because what they would come up with would be dangerous.

I learn by doing, figuring out what works by trying it out, thinking through the possibilities, reading other accounts (like Dr 9 live Mike) and working up to the big dives. Look at the progression on my CCR dolphin project, the first unit looked like crap, and I dived it very conservativly, later as the unit got more streamlined and the plumbing more secure I took it deeper and farther until I realized that i was near its limits, then went to a serious CCR. I learned a lot more doing it that way, than having a GUI Preacher tell me the party line and that I will be ostrasized if I dont do it thier way.

Sure the system works, agreed, but I prefer the non-nazi approach. Some folks gravitate toward structure, join the army, become a mormon, drink the kool-aid, or become GUE instructors/divers.

GUE/DIR would be a lot farther along if it were not for GI3, who ruined it for a lot of folks, he attracted the nazi types to diving and although he has gone on to other pastures, the legacy he left behind will be long in dispursing.

Some of this is a bit tongue in cheek, if you can tell the difference, then there is probably hope for you.

Can we start calling you Ron Micjan III

btw adding a smiley face and an escape clause at the end of a rant doesnt make it any more tasty or offer any protection

Funny from where I sit the only preaching ranting and brow beating thats being done in this thread was all from non GUE divers.

Guys when I read the last few posts Im embarised. You guys sound like a bunch of maverik snake oil selling cowboys and are demonstating exactly the kind of 'our way is the right way' and 'them and us' attitude that you profess to dislike. Pot calling kettle black me thinks

Theres a place for both styles of diving just as theres a place for both bits of kit - no need to get all religious about it - but I can tell you for sure - If I was diving OC Id be totally DIR

, If I had group of like minded cashed up available cave divers in my team Id be diving DIR RB80s.

db8us · 20th November 2007, 02:50

Strange, the discussion started well and then it went down the drain.
I do not want to convince anyone about any method of diving, i just stated what worked for me and our team (EKPP).
The DIR approach brought a few things into the diving industry which i think moved the whole diving in a better direction, like no deep-air diving, etc.
It had to be quite rigid in the beginning. And never ever was it a system for followers. You can question every method and configuration because there are reasons behind them. Actually we also tried out a lot of stuff, even stupid things and tested them if they could be used effectivly.

One things we always left out of the equation: Money
We do not allow sponsoring, advertisisng, etc.
Also we do not change the system if we have to compromize to save money.
Money divides teams and drives egos and makes the press publish stupid stuff.

The amount of He i used per year was less than i used for gas driving to divesites, or spareparts for my car or even highway fees in France.

So everyone can dive like he/she wants of course! Just when it comes to our team we expect to follow the usual procedures.

Regards

Michael

Ben Field · 20th November 2007, 07:58

Are you all sure this wasn't a troll?

I fail to understand why you all care so much as to argue about it- their diving Rebreather in big cave pushes has no relavence to their training structure around the world and all the other "issues" people have good reason to have against DIR, let them get on with it I say.... its not really an issue in the UK any longer as their groups have been banned by all the major charters I've used because (sadly) they caused so much trouble when mixed with other recreational groups, maybe they've just gone underground now GI3 isn't screaming at they from their inbox daily?

Its abit of a shame really, I enjoy reading about their big dives (both in Florida and Europe) and what ever happened to Mr Irvine anyway? He was a colourful character, like him or loath him, he was a diver and explorer which you can't take away- what does he do now?

I doubt they will find anything in CCR that they don't have it SCR or OC anyway, the only thing that might help them is a Saturation System

Mark Chase · 20th November 2007, 09:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by netmage)

Every DIR discussion degenerates into mindless sheep/nazi threads... Its obvious no one wants move beyond GI3... they are simply having too much fun rehashing the same tired shit...

Well said

We reeeeeelllly don't want to do this. Bygones be bygones and all that lets move on.

The serious DIR divers in my acquaintance are good/passionate divers nice people and extremely helpful. We take the piss out of each other in good heart.

The new ladies and gents can be a little overenthusiastic but thats to be expected.

It would be tragic if healthy and hopefully productive discussion is lost in a sea of pointless negative posts. I am very pleased that massively experienced divers like Graham, Richard and Debus are on here to offer an outside looking in view. This can only help.

ATB

Mark Chase

**dive*ski** · 20th November 2007, 09:23

That sums it up nicely Mark.

20th November 2007, 00:01	#51 (permalink)
graham_hk Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss MK 15.X RB80 / Clone Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 107	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Er guys you two are exhibiting the exact behavior your are moaning about Grahams been there done that with ccrs and has extensive experience of both sides of the fence (ccrs/gue) - can you two say the same?? Thanks Mike I fail to see how any of my posts had attitude - I did prod Chasey about diving wrecks but that was in reference to his upcoming cave class. Ron - tell you what, if you think I am not a thinking diver why don't you sign up for the most basic GUE course and let us us know how you got on. Personally I like diving with like minded divers whose gear I know and more importantly I know how they are likely to respond to a problem. I like diving with plenty of gas and having options to bailout. I have only found this with GUE YMMV. I can't argue about the logistics and savings of CCR - I used to enjoy them for all the reasons stated here its just now, for me, they don't outweigh the draw backs. I do 50-100 trimix dives a year - we are starting to look at the 90m + range and thats why I've got back to rebreathers. If you check my frist post you will see that I agree CCR has a niche for ocean bounce dives. Graham
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20th November 2007, 00:33	#52 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,100	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? A buddy and I were going to sign up for the fundies course, just for the fun and to see if there was things I was missing in my training regime. Then I discovered that the 3 day course was $700. OK, I have already been through OC intro to cave, and full CCR cave (by Matt at protec Mexico) I have over 500 hours on CCR, with about half that being on mix, and have no problem holding buoyancy, trim, helo turns and can even back up w/o trashing the viz, someone explain to me what else I need, and why I need to learn it from GUE? My problem with the DIR crowd has never been the quality or level of training, its always been with the attitude the DIR's have sent out. The rules smack of eliteism. Anyone who tells me, 'there is only one way to do something, and its my way" this is a non thinking person. For some who literally should not be thinking, this is probably a good thing. Some of the plumbing changes folks have done to thier CCR's are a good example, some folks NEED to be told how to do something, because what they would come up with would be dangerous. I learn by doing, figuring out what works by trying it out, thinking through the possibilities, reading other accounts (like Dr 9 live Mike) and working up to the big dives. Look at the progression on my CCR dolphin project, the first unit looked like crap, and I dived it very conservativly, later as the unit got more streamlined and the plumbing more secure I took it deeper and farther until I realized that i was near its limits, then went to a serious CCR. I learned a lot more doing it that way, than having a GUI Preacher tell me the party line and that I will be ostrasized if I dont do it thier way. Sure the system works, agreed, but I prefer the non-nazi approach. Some folks gravitate toward structure, join the army, become a mormon, drink the kool-aid, or become GUE instructors/divers. GUE/DIR would be a lot farther along if it were not for GI3, who ruined it for a lot of folks, he attracted the nazi types to diving and although he has gone on to other pastures, the legacy he left behind will be long in dispursing. Some of this is a bit tongue in cheek, if you can tell the difference, then there is probably hope for you. __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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20th November 2007, 01:41	#53 (permalink)
petey1 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: henderson nv Posts: 4	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Holy Shit I am on the ground rolling Ron because basically you just went into the barn with a big stick and did some Sheep bashing and that's what they are sheep(DIR)
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20th November 2007, 01:52	#54 (permalink)
netmage Tim Owens Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coconut Creek, FL Posts: 524	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Every DIR discussion degenerates into mindless sheep/nazi threads... Its obvious no one wants move beyond GI3... they are simply having too much fun rehashing the same tired shit...
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20th November 2007, 02:00	#55 (permalink)
petey1 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: henderson nv Posts: 4	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? waaa i got butt rash waaa
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20th November 2007, 02:01	#56 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) A buddy and I were going to sign up for the fundies course, just for the fun and to see if there was things I was missing in my training regime. Then I discovered that the 3 day course was $700. OK, I have already been through OC intro to cave, and full CCR cave (by Matt at protec Mexico) I have over 500 hours on CCR, with about half that being on mix, and have no problem holding buoyancy, trim, helo turns and can even back up w/o trashing the viz, someone explain to me what else I need, and why I need to learn it from GUE? My problem with the DIR crowd has never been the quality or level of training, its always been with the attitude the DIR's have sent out. The rules smack of eliteism. Anyone who tells me, 'there is only one way to do something, and its my way" this is a non thinking person. For some who literally should not be thinking, this is probably a good thing. Some of the plumbing changes folks have done to thier CCR's are a good example, some folks NEED to be told how to do something, because what they would come up with would be dangerous. I learn by doing, figuring out what works by trying it out, thinking through the possibilities, reading other accounts (like Dr 9 live Mike) and working up to the big dives. Look at the progression on my CCR dolphin project, the first unit looked like crap, and I dived it very conservativly, later as the unit got more streamlined and the plumbing more secure I took it deeper and farther until I realized that i was near its limits, then went to a serious CCR. I learned a lot more doing it that way, than having a GUI Preacher tell me the party line and that I will be ostrasized if I dont do it thier way. Sure the system works, agreed, but I prefer the non-nazi approach. Some folks gravitate toward structure, join the army, become a mormon, drink the kool-aid, or become GUE instructors/divers. GUE/DIR would be a lot farther along if it were not for GI3, who ruined it for a lot of folks, he attracted the nazi types to diving and although he has gone on to other pastures, the legacy he left behind will be long in dispursing. Some of this is a bit tongue in cheek, if you can tell the difference, then there is probably hope for you. Can we start calling you Ron Micjan III btw adding a smiley face and an escape clause at the end of a rant doesnt make it any more tasty or offer any protection Funny from where I sit the only preaching ranting and brow beating thats being done in this thread was all from non GUE divers. Guys when I read the last few posts Im embarised. You guys sound like a bunch of maverik snake oil selling cowboys and are demonstating exactly the kind of 'our way is the right way' and 'them and us' attitude that you profess to dislike. Pot calling kettle black me thinks Theres a place for both styles of diving just as theres a place for both bits of kit - no need to get all religious about it - but I can tell you for sure - If I was diving OC Id be totally DIR , If I had group of like minded cashed up available cave divers in my team Id be diving DIR RB80s. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 20th November 2007 at 02:06.
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20th November 2007, 02:50	#57 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 227	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Strange, the discussion started well and then it went down the drain. I do not want to convince anyone about any method of diving, i just stated what worked for me and our team (EKPP). The DIR approach brought a few things into the diving industry which i think moved the whole diving in a better direction, like no deep-air diving, etc. It had to be quite rigid in the beginning. And never ever was it a system for followers. You can question every method and configuration because there are reasons behind them. Actually we also tried out a lot of stuff, even stupid things and tested them if they could be used effectivly. One things we always left out of the equation: Money We do not allow sponsoring, advertisisng, etc. Also we do not change the system if we have to compromize to save money. Money divides teams and drives egos and makes the press publish stupid stuff. The amount of He i used per year was less than i used for gas driving to divesites, or spareparts for my car or even highway fees in France. So everyone can dive like he/she wants of course! Just when it comes to our team we expect to follow the usual procedures. Regards Michael Last edited by db8us : 20th November 2007 at 03:07.
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20th November 2007, 07:58	#58 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,627	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Are you all sure this wasn't a troll? I fail to understand why you all care so much as to argue about it- their diving Rebreather in big cave pushes has no relavence to their training structure around the world and all the other "issues" people have good reason to have against DIR, let them get on with it I say.... its not really an issue in the UK any longer as their groups have been banned by all the major charters I've used because (sadly) they caused so much trouble when mixed with other recreational groups, maybe they've just gone underground now GI3 isn't screaming at they from their inbox daily? Its abit of a shame really, I enjoy reading about their big dives (both in Florida and Europe) and what ever happened to Mr Irvine anyway? He was a colourful character, like him or loath him, he was a diver and explorer which you can't take away- what does he do now? I doubt they will find anything in CCR that they don't have it SCR or OC anyway, the only thing that might help them is a Saturation System __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
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20th November 2007, 09:04	#59 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by netmage) Every DIR discussion degenerates into mindless sheep/nazi threads... Its obvious no one wants move beyond GI3... they are simply having too much fun rehashing the same tired shit... Well said We reeeeeelllly don't want to do this. Bygones be bygones and all that lets move on. The serious DIR divers in my acquaintance are good/passionate divers nice people and extremely helpful. We take the piss out of each other in good heart. The new ladies and gents can be a little overenthusiastic but thats to be expected. It would be tragic if healthy and hopefully productive discussion is lost in a sea of pointless negative posts. I am very pleased that massively experienced divers like Graham, Richard and Debus are on here to offer an outside looking in view. This can only help. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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20th November 2007, 09:23	#60 (permalink)
*diveski Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s:** Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 32	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? That sums it up nicely Mark.
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