Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers?

graham_hk · 19th November 2007, 09:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

In the UK in SE England we pay 0.9pltr for 02 and 1.4pltr for He.

A fill is about £1 per % He

See local example here Lakeside Diving

Gas toping is possible but i have to go to lakeside for it (90mile round trip). My more local dive center (65mile round trip) will blow off all the gas in the tanks and fill from scratch because he doesn't have a trimix analisor and he fills without a booster for his He.

Both dive centers often cant do while you wait fills. So for lakeside i am looking at 180miles of driving costing about £33 in fuel. Then I pay my £40 for my twin 12s of 14/60 and another £35 for my deco gas.

Total dive cost is now £108 for gas for a twin 12s dive. ANY dive on a CCR costs less than £20. A three hour dive to 80m and back costs about £20

Lime fill £8 50-80bar 02 out of a 3ltr £2.16 80-100bar mix £10 TOTAL: £20.12p

Cells cost 165 a year over say 80-100 dives a year £2.00 per dive.

I go to the dive center once every four-six months and get 50ltrs of mix and 50ltrs of 02 and decant from there so my fuel bill for the year is 6-8 trips not 120-160trips.

Batteries etc ?? lets just say £30 a dive and have done with it.

SO a mix dive OC costs me £108ish and CCR it costs me £30.00 a saving of £78over avg 50 trimix dives a year thats £3900.

The local DIR boys tell me they don't pay anywhere near that much for gas, However they haven't actually been able to tell me where within a 50mile radius of Maidstone I can get this cheep Helium.

SO lets be generous and say I only save £2000 a year

What this means is i do far more exploratory diving than the average OC mix diver. I am far more willing to risk a dive on an unknown than a OC mix diver. I am far more willing to book a boat to do deep undived wrecks than an OC diver too, because if we get blown out I wont be wasting gas on shallow dives I can happily do a shallow 30m dive on 14/60 Trimix.

This was all my kit and ALL my gas for a weeks livaboard trimix diving planned to dive 6 dives between 60 and 80m in Malin Head.

In truth I like OC diving. I feel its easier than CCR and less work. OK its colder and more dehydrating I grant but diving twin 12s now is like skinny dipping compared to diving a CCR.

I just cant afford to do the diving I do on OC. QED i am not a GUE diver but i would be if CCR didn't exist or if GUE did CCR.

No doubt the GUE party faithful will say there is no compromise on cost saving when it comes to the safety of the diver. However I find such concerns hilarious when were talking about a risk assessment for a diver spending 10Hours in the water. Diving is dangerous at all levels and very very dangerous 2+ hours into the arse end of some cave.

Its all about managing the risk, and to me thats GUE's party piece.

So I hope that whilst the aspects of diving CCR SCR and OC are being discussed at the conference, that some small part of the discussion will cover the 90% of divers doing exploration diving who are working on a very very tight budget without sponsorship a often without willing free support divers.

If you don't then I see the future progression of a GUE diver as being:

GUEF Tech1 possibly Tech2 then TDI CCR Mod1

ATB

Mark

Here's a spanner in your works: my progress

IANTD trimix, Inspiration user, Inspiration Normoxic, MK15 user, MK15 Trimix IANTD instructor (Normoxic Rebreather and Trimix OC), GUE Fundamentals, GUE Cave 1, Gue cave 2, GUE Tech 2, GUE RB80.

I can't argue with your costings since you've made your mind up - I am happy with where I am now and we pay more for Helium than you. By choice I wouldn't spend so much exploring rusty junk heaps

when there are caves to explore - you are just about to find this out! Also, I wouldn't dive with so little bailout - each to his own.

Graham

Mark Chase · 19th November 2007, 14:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by graham_hk)

Here's a spanner in your works: my progress

IANTD trimix, Inspiration user, Inspiration Normoxic, MK15 user, MK15 Trimix IANTD instructor (Normoxic Rebreather and Trimix OC), GUE Fundamentals, GUE Cave 1, Gue cave 2, GUE Tech 2, GUE RB80.

I can't argue with your costings since you've made your mind up - I am happy with where I am now and we pay more for Helium than you. By choice I wouldn't spend so much exploring rusty junk heaps

when there are caves to explore - you are just about to find this out! Also, I wouldn't dive with so little bailout - each to his own.

Graham

My mind is made up? Does this mean i am imagining things

Trust me my mind is never closed to new possibilities.

Graham you may well be surprised to learn I resisted CCR dispute a lot of pressure from my buddie to join him in getting one. However once my diving progressed from the occasional 50-80m dive to a 50-80m dive being an average day dive, I couldn't resist much longer.

I doubt if you are the average jo diver. I suspect there is more to your affiliation to GUE than just a stile of diving. One thing is for sure your either have a large disposable income or your gas an logistical costs are otherwise subsidized.

As Mark Ellyot said to me once, "I dont need to go CCR because I get pretty much all my gas free".

ATB

Mark

RonMicjan · 19th November 2007, 14:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by graham_hk)

Here's a spanner in your works: my progress

IANTD trimix, Inspiration user, Inspiration Normoxic, MK15 user, MK15 Trimix IANTD instructor (Normoxic Rebreather and Trimix OC), GUE Fundamentals, GUE Cave 1, Gue cave 2, GUE Tech 2, GUE RB80.

Graham

just cause you have your training all bass ackwards, doesnt mean mark has a spanner anywhere near his works. All it sounds like is that you drank the kool-aid. Gas savings is a huge motivator in moving to CCR, I expect that I have paid for my meg is helium savings doing the 200-300 foot dives. Now I get one helium T cylinder per year, instead of one every couple weeks and having three to bank from on hand.

DIR is the nanny state for divers who cannot think on their own.

Your attitude Graham, is the reason I wont be associated with GUE. Now stop trolling!

Drmike · 19th November 2007, 14:37

Er guys you two are exhibiting the exact behavior your are moaning about

Grahams been there done that with ccrs and has extensive experience of both sides of the fence (ccrs/gue) - can you two say the same??

Dave Sutton · 19th November 2007, 14:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

DIR is the nanny state for divers who cannot think on their own.

Basic premise: Every tool has it's use.

GUI philosophy has huge value *in it's correct context*: If I wanted to do deep cave exploration... I'd be right up there drinking kool-aid with the rest of them. Their system works... with almost perfect results. Their missions require large teams of interchangable divers who need to know exactly what another diver is wearing. Why reinvent the wheel?

With that said, I'm absoilutely 100% in agreement with Mark Chase on this for wreck diving: For boat diving there is *no way in hell* that we could do what we do without CCR's. His "small pile-o-crap" for a weeks diving is *exactly* what we want aboard the boat here. It's why we *do not allow* open circuit divers aboard. We simply cannot afford the logistics from a transport-view, never mind expense.

The issue is to select the *correct tool* for the *correct job*. On one hand, why reinvent the wheel? On the other hand, why pretend we all need to be 100% interchangable parts when (A) we do not need to, and (B) using those techniques makes it *more difficult* and requires *more logistics* when it's simply not needed?

Bottom line: Bring all your GUE crap aboard EXPLORER for a 9 day offshore trip and you'll be *all alone*... ONE divers gear-pile would be larger than the *6* team members gear-pile that I expect aboard. Our stuff would not be appropriate for caving. And, not for nothing, our wreck divers could give a toss for cave diving. We're just a different mission oriented group. Not everyone wants to be a cave diver and huge logistics piles don't work well on small boats.

BTW: All of my diving this season was done from (2) J's of Helium and (3) J's of 02. That includes mixing gas for 3 other divers in addition to myself for our 2 Doria trips *including more than adequate bailout* bottles for all hands.

Pick a sledge-hammer to drive railroad spikes. Pick a tack hammer to put up a photo on your wall. Yes, you can use the sledge hammer to drive tacks, but.... does it make sense? That "thoughtful" flexability is what GUE is missing. Maybe what Ron says is true... they have engineered the "thoughtfulness" out of the system. Doesn't work for me.

Back to our normal rant now...

Dave

netmage · 19th November 2007, 14:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

you may want to go look at the expeditions done on the Cis-lunar Mk5, where bottom times were over 12 hours. the Meg with radial scrubber will do 10 hours in warm water.

As disclosed this past weekend, a meg w/ axial has done 10-11 hours in warm water (~70 I imagine), obviously majority of time; deco at rest; paranoid ready to bail at any indication. AL can w/ external liner material.

Then again, Classic Kiss and Optima were also in the same dive. I didn't catch if all three stayed on loop for duration.

Mark Chase · 19th November 2007, 15:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Er guys you two are exhibiting the exact behavior your are moaning about

Grahams been there done that with ccrs and has extensive experience of both sides of the fence (ccrs/gue) - can you two say the same??

I sincerely hope I am not.

I did DIRF last year , does that count

I personally feel DIR is fantastic and I wish they would introduce a CCR so I could join. If I pack in CCR I will join.

This thread was on the forthcoming GUE debate on CCR. I was hoping to put forward something from someone who has a passion for the exploration of new wrecks but not the financial clout to be oblivious to the costs involved in doing deep dives on OC.

There are a few EX DIR divers I dive with / have dived with who are now on CCR, they all packed in OC Trimix for the same reason and they all regularly do deep dives. A couple of them are on this forum.

I would be surprised if GUE feel the opinions and issues of this group of divers is not worth considering

ATB

Mark

Mark Chase · 19th November 2007, 15:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Basic premise: Every tool has it's use.

GUI philosophy has huge value *in it's correct context*: If I wanted to do deep cave exploration... I'd be right up there drinking kool-aid with the rest of them. Their system works... with almost perfect results. Their missions require large teams of interchangable divers who need to know exactly what another diver is wearing. Why reinvent the wheel?

With that said, I'm absoilutely 100% in agreement with Mark Chase on this for wreck diving: For boat diving there is *no way in hell* that we could do what we do without CCR's. His "small pile-o-crap" for a weeks diving is *exactly* what we want aboard the boat here. It's why we *do not allow* open circuit divers aboard. We simply cannot afford the logistics from a transport-view, never mind expense.

The issue is to select the *correct tool* for the *correct job*. On one hand, why reinvent the wheel? On the other hand, why pretend we all need to be 100% interchangable parts when (A) we do not need to, and (B) using those techniques makes it *more difficult* and requires *more logistics* when it's simply not needed?

Bottom line: Bring all your GUE crap aboard EXPLORER for a 9 day offshore trip and you'll be *all alone*... ONE divers gear-pile would be larger than the *6* team members gear-pile that I expect aboard. Our stuff would not be appropriate for caving. And, not for nothing, our wreck divers could give a toss for cave diving. We're just a different mission oriented group. Not everyone wants to be a cave diver and huge logistics piles don't work well on small boats.

BTW: All of my diving this season was done from (2) J's of Helium and (3) J's of 02. That includes mixing gas for 3 other divers in addition to myself for our 2 Doria trips *including more than adequate bailout* bottles for all hands.

Pick a sledge-hammer to drive railroad spikes. Pick a tack hammer to put up a photo on your wall. Yes, you can use the sledge hammer to drive tacks, but.... does it make sense? That "thoughtful" flexability is what GUE is missing. Maybe what Ron says is true... they have engineered the "thoughtfulness" out of the system. Doesn't work for me.

Back to our normal rant now...

Dave

Dave raises some excellent points and joged my memory, I forgot to mention:

We are now able to be totally flexible with the dive planning. If on the day sea conditions are good we can decide on the spur of the moment to switch from the planned 60m wreck and go and do an 80m instead or vice versa. The deepest wrecks in our patch of sea are 80m (OK there is a 93m one but thats in a hole)

This has maxamised the potential for exploration on every boat booking. No one has to stick their hand up and say they have the wrong gas because we all committed to fills a week ago.

We can use smaller more economical boats for multi day dive trips or we can use larger boats and not get such a large fuel surcharge because we don't bring on 2000Kg of twin sets and stages.

We also have far greater potential for long range dives as we don't need to get back in time to drop off or collect fills.

I forgot to mention these advantages because since we all went CCR I now take them for granted.

ATB

Mark

Dave IR · 19th November 2007, 16:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

There are a few EX DIR divers I dive with / have dived with who are now on CCR, they all packed in OC Trimix for the same reason and they all regularly do deep dives. A couple of them are on this forum.

I found the gas logistics too much for the sort of diving I do and love, plus the fact I live in windy old England where the weather changes from morning to afternoon.

As an example, I have a possible dive on Sunday ( 40m ) and will probably sign up for it. However, the long range weather forecast looks dire for Sunday. So I just assemble all my kit and fill my dil with 15/55. If I get to dive on Sunday, I have a really clear head, if not the kit is ready for the following weekend where we are diving to 75m. I just can't do this on OC without a ton of doubles+stages. I also don't have the time between dives to get the fills.

The O2 Cells are the weak-point in CCR and I think they alone will prevent GUE adopting CCR until their reliability improves or another method of accurately measuring O2 in a diving application is available.

lizardland · 19th November 2007, 22:58

I have to admit, I've been thinking more and more about going back to OC for a lot of my diving, especially caving. At <40m I just don't enjoy diving a CCR, I tend to be a hell of a lot more conservative in gas planning than I was on OC because a CO2 hit underground scares the shite out of me. Dives that I'd happily do on a twinset have become a Rebreather and two stages. The latest question mark over cell reliability is just one more knock.

On the other hand, I don't enjoy OC diving deeper than 40m, I'd much rather be on a CCR. Add in scooters and I'd really not want to be a long way from home at depth and on a very finite gas supply. It's all a balancing act between the risks and advantages of one system over another in a certain situation.

I like to think that I've got enough time CCR now so that I don't have to use it on every dive to build the skill set (OK, famous last words

) and that not diving CCR for a few weeks isn't going to cause me to go back to being a blundering oaf.

I wouldn't go as far as to say I was DIR but I did dive in a hogarthian stylee (and probably for a good number of years before most current UK DIR divers had even heard of it) so maybe I've a tendency to keep using that mindset. I like simplicity and more and more I'm starting to see myself wanting/needing additional bits of kit to do on CCR what is essentially a simple action on OC. Scootering as an example is a pain in the arse on a CK: my Gavin and Silent Sub are right-handed scooters which mean your light is in the left which is also the arm your displays are on because they are lefthanded. So checking your pO2 is an extra hassle because you've either got to use backlit displays (which I don't), stop and swap your light over every time you want to read it(pointless), wear a head torch (which I don't like) or get a HUD (more kit/cost/complexity). It's just one more level of complication on a straightforward task.

Dave is dead right, a tool is a tool. It's there to make life easier. When something starts making your life difficult and/or you start coming up with reasons for why you are using that tool then you're using the wrong tool. In deep water it is the tool of choice. In shallow water (for me) it's a waste of time. On mid range stuff then I'll take a view depending on the dive.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

And, not for nothing, our wreck divers could give a toss for cave diving. We're just a different mission oriented group. Not everyone wants to be a cave diver and huge logistics piles don't work well on small boats.

The only extra kit I have for cave diving is a couple of backup lights and a few more stages. Cave diving is often only as complex as the divers want it to look for the vast majority of cave dives. There's virtually no difference from what I use underground and in open water. Most wreckers would take more kit on a week's sea diving than I'd take on a week's caving. Though looking at the pile of srt kit, ropes and lamps on the other side of the room which is going on Ebay then I'm not so sure...

Cheers,

Stuart

19th November 2007, 09:39	#41 (permalink)
graham_hk New Member Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss MK 15.X RB80 / Clone Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 89	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) In the UK in SE England we pay 0.9pltr for 02 and 1.4pltr for He. A fill is about £1 per % He See local example here Lakeside Diving Gas toping is possible but i have to go to lakeside for it (90mile round trip). My more local dive center (65mile round trip) will blow off all the gas in the tanks and fill from scratch because he doesn't have a trimix analisor and he fills without a booster for his He. Both dive centers often cant do while you wait fills. So for lakeside i am looking at 180miles of driving costing about £33 in fuel. Then I pay my £40 for my twin 12s of 14/60 and another £35 for my deco gas. Total dive cost is now £108 for gas for a twin 12s dive. ANY dive on a CCR costs less than £20. A three hour dive to 80m and back costs about £20 Lime fill £8 50-80bar 02 out of a 3ltr £2.16 80-100bar mix £10 TOTAL: £20.12p Cells cost 165 a year over say 80-100 dives a year £2.00 per dive. I go to the dive center once every four-six months and get 50ltrs of mix and 50ltrs of 02 and decant from there so my fuel bill for the year is 6-8 trips not 120-160trips. Batteries etc ?? lets just say £30 a dive and have done with it. SO a mix dive OC costs me £108ish and CCR it costs me £30.00 a saving of £78over avg 50 trimix dives a year thats £3900. The local DIR boys tell me they don't pay anywhere near that much for gas, However they haven't actually been able to tell me where within a 50mile radius of Maidstone I can get this cheep Helium. SO lets be generous and say I only save £2000 a year What this means is i do far more exploratory diving than the average OC mix diver. I am far more willing to risk a dive on an unknown than a OC mix diver. I am far more willing to book a boat to do deep undived wrecks than an OC diver too, because if we get blown out I wont be wasting gas on shallow dives I can happily do a shallow 30m dive on 14/60 Trimix. This was all my kit and ALL my gas for a weeks livaboard trimix diving planned to dive 6 dives between 60 and 80m in Malin Head. In truth I like OC diving. I feel its easier than CCR and less work. OK its colder and more dehydrating I grant but diving twin 12s now is like skinny dipping compared to diving a CCR. I just cant afford to do the diving I do on OC. QED i am not a GUE diver but i would be if CCR didn't exist or if GUE did CCR. No doubt the GUE party faithful will say there is no compromise on cost saving when it comes to the safety of the diver. However I find such concerns hilarious when were talking about a risk assessment for a diver spending 10Hours in the water. Diving is dangerous at all levels and very very dangerous 2+ hours into the arse end of some cave. Its all about managing the risk, and to me thats GUE's party piece. So I hope that whilst the aspects of diving CCR SCR and OC are being discussed at the conference, that some small part of the discussion will cover the 90% of divers doing exploration diving who are working on a very very tight budget without sponsorship a often without willing free support divers. If you don't then I see the future progression of a GUE diver as being: GUEF Tech1 possibly Tech2 then TDI CCR Mod1 ATB Mark Here's a spanner in your works: my progress IANTD trimix, Inspiration user, Inspiration Normoxic, MK15 user, MK15 Trimix IANTD instructor (Normoxic Rebreather and Trimix OC), GUE Fundamentals, GUE Cave 1, Gue cave 2, GUE Tech 2, GUE RB80. I can't argue with your costings since you've made your mind up - I am happy with where I am now and we pay more for Helium than you. By choice I wouldn't spend so much exploring rusty junk heaps when there are caves to explore - you are just about to find this out! Also, I wouldn't dive with so little bailout - each to his own. Graham
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19th November 2007, 14:03	#42 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,561	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by graham_hk) Here's a spanner in your works: my progress IANTD trimix, Inspiration user, Inspiration Normoxic, MK15 user, MK15 Trimix IANTD instructor (Normoxic Rebreather and Trimix OC), GUE Fundamentals, GUE Cave 1, Gue cave 2, GUE Tech 2, GUE RB80. I can't argue with your costings since you've made your mind up - I am happy with where I am now and we pay more for Helium than you. By choice I wouldn't spend so much exploring rusty junk heaps when there are caves to explore - you are just about to find this out! Also, I wouldn't dive with so little bailout - each to his own. Graham My mind is made up? Does this mean i am imagining things Trust me my mind is never closed to new possibilities. Graham you may well be surprised to learn I resisted CCR dispute a lot of pressure from my buddie to join him in getting one. However once my diving progressed from the occasional 50-80m dive to a 50-80m dive being an average day dive, I couldn't resist much longer. I doubt if you are the average jo diver. I suspect there is more to your affiliation to GUE than just a stile of diving. One thing is for sure your either have a large disposable income or your gas an logistical costs are otherwise subsidized. As Mark Ellyot said to me once, "I dont need to go CCR because I get pretty much all my gas free". ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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19th November 2007, 14:31	#43 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,083	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by graham_hk) Here's a spanner in your works: my progress IANTD trimix, Inspiration user, Inspiration Normoxic, MK15 user, MK15 Trimix IANTD instructor (Normoxic Rebreather and Trimix OC), GUE Fundamentals, GUE Cave 1, Gue cave 2, GUE Tech 2, GUE RB80. Graham just cause you have your training all bass ackwards, doesnt mean mark has a spanner anywhere near his works. All it sounds like is that you drank the kool-aid. Gas savings is a huge motivator in moving to CCR, I expect that I have paid for my meg is helium savings doing the 200-300 foot dives. Now I get one helium T cylinder per year, instead of one every couple weeks and having three to bank from on hand. DIR is the nanny state for divers who cannot think on their own. Your attitude Graham, is the reason I wont be associated with GUE. Now stop trolling! __________________ Ron "Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you different, is selling something", The Dread Pirate Wesley. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc.
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19th November 2007, 14:37	#44 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Er guys you two are exhibiting the exact behavior your are moaning about Grahams been there done that with ccrs and has extensive experience of both sides of the fence (ccrs/gue) - can you two say the same?? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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19th November 2007, 14:46	#45 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Membership Cancelled Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,637	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) DIR is the nanny state for divers who cannot think on their own. Basic premise: Every tool has it's use. GUI philosophy has huge value in it's correct context: If I wanted to do deep cave exploration... I'd be right up there drinking kool-aid with the rest of them. Their system works... with almost perfect results. Their missions require large teams of interchangable divers who need to know exactly what another diver is wearing. Why reinvent the wheel? With that said, I'm absoilutely 100% in agreement with Mark Chase on this for wreck diving: For boat diving there is no way in hell that we could do what we do without CCR's. His "small pile-o-crap" for a weeks diving is exactly what we want aboard the boat here. It's why we do not allow open circuit divers aboard. We simply cannot afford the logistics from a transport-view, never mind expense. The issue is to select the correct tool for the correct job. On one hand, why reinvent the wheel? On the other hand, why pretend we all need to be 100% interchangable parts when (A) we do not need to, and (B) using those techniques makes it more difficult and requires more logistics when it's simply not needed? Bottom line: Bring all your GUE crap aboard EXPLORER for a 9 day offshore trip and you'll be all alone... ONE divers gear-pile would be larger than the 6 team members gear-pile that I expect aboard. Our stuff would not be appropriate for caving. And, not for nothing, our wreck divers could give a toss for cave diving. We're just a different mission oriented group. Not everyone wants to be a cave diver and huge logistics piles don't work well on small boats. BTW: All of my diving this season was done from (2) J's of Helium and (3) J's of 02. That includes mixing gas for 3 other divers in addition to myself for our 2 Doria trips including more than adequate bailout bottles for all hands. Pick a sledge-hammer to drive railroad spikes. Pick a tack hammer to put up a photo on your wall. Yes, you can use the sledge hammer to drive tacks, but.... does it make sense? That "thoughtful" flexability is what GUE is missing. Maybe what Ron says is true... they have engineered the "thoughtfulness" out of the system. Doesn't work for me. Back to our normal rant now... Dave Last edited by Dave Sutton : 19th November 2007 at 14:54.
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19th November 2007, 14:56	#46 (permalink)
netmage Hello Kitty...... Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coconut Creek, FL Posts: 440	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) you may want to go look at the expeditions done on the Cis-lunar Mk5, where bottom times were over 12 hours. the Meg with radial scrubber will do 10 hours in warm water. As disclosed this past weekend, a meg w/ axial has done 10-11 hours in warm water (~70 I imagine), obviously majority of time; deco at rest; paranoid ready to bail at any indication. AL can w/ external liner material. Then again, Classic Kiss and Optima were also in the same dive. I didn't catch if all three stayed on loop for duration.
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19th November 2007, 15:12	#47 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,561	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Er guys you two are exhibiting the exact behavior your are moaning about Grahams been there done that with ccrs and has extensive experience of both sides of the fence (ccrs/gue) - can you two say the same?? I sincerely hope I am not. I did DIRF last year , does that count I personally feel DIR is fantastic and I wish they would introduce a CCR so I could join. If I pack in CCR I will join. This thread was on the forthcoming GUE debate on CCR. I was hoping to put forward something from someone who has a passion for the exploration of new wrecks but not the financial clout to be oblivious to the costs involved in doing deep dives on OC. There are a few EX DIR divers I dive with / have dived with who are now on CCR, they all packed in OC Trimix for the same reason and they all regularly do deep dives. A couple of them are on this forum. I would be surprised if GUE feel the opinions and issues of this group of divers is not worth considering ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System Last edited by Mark Chase : 19th November 2007 at 15:15.
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19th November 2007, 15:37	#48 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,561	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Basic premise: Every tool has it's use. GUI philosophy has huge value in it's correct context: If I wanted to do deep cave exploration... I'd be right up there drinking kool-aid with the rest of them. Their system works... with almost perfect results. Their missions require large teams of interchangable divers who need to know exactly what another diver is wearing. Why reinvent the wheel? With that said, I'm absoilutely 100% in agreement with Mark Chase on this for wreck diving: For boat diving there is no way in hell that we could do what we do without CCR's. His "small pile-o-crap" for a weeks diving is exactly what we want aboard the boat here. It's why we do not allow open circuit divers aboard. We simply cannot afford the logistics from a transport-view, never mind expense. The issue is to select the correct tool for the correct job. On one hand, why reinvent the wheel? On the other hand, why pretend we all need to be 100% interchangable parts when (A) we do not need to, and (B) using those techniques makes it more difficult and requires more logistics when it's simply not needed? Bottom line: Bring all your GUE crap aboard EXPLORER for a 9 day offshore trip and you'll be all alone... ONE divers gear-pile would be larger than the 6 team members gear-pile that I expect aboard. Our stuff would not be appropriate for caving. And, not for nothing, our wreck divers could give a toss for cave diving. We're just a different mission oriented group. Not everyone wants to be a cave diver and huge logistics piles don't work well on small boats. BTW: All of my diving this season was done from (2) J's of Helium and (3) J's of 02. That includes mixing gas for 3 other divers in addition to myself for our 2 Doria trips including more than adequate bailout bottles for all hands. Pick a sledge-hammer to drive railroad spikes. Pick a tack hammer to put up a photo on your wall. Yes, you can use the sledge hammer to drive tacks, but.... does it make sense? That "thoughtful" flexability is what GUE is missing. Maybe what Ron says is true... they have engineered the "thoughtfulness" out of the system. Doesn't work for me. Back to our normal rant now... Dave Dave raises some excellent points and joged my memory, I forgot to mention: We are now able to be totally flexible with the dive planning. If on the day sea conditions are good we can decide on the spur of the moment to switch from the planned 60m wreck and go and do an 80m instead or vice versa. The deepest wrecks in our patch of sea are 80m (OK there is a 93m one but thats in a hole) This has maxamised the potential for exploration on every boat booking. No one has to stick their hand up and say they have the wrong gas because we all committed to fills a week ago. We can use smaller more economical boats for multi day dive trips or we can use larger boats and not get such a large fuel surcharge because we don't bring on 2000Kg of twin sets and stages. We also have far greater potential for long range dives as we don't need to get back in time to drop off or collect fills. I forgot to mention these advantages because since we all went CCR I now take them for granted. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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19th November 2007, 16:01	#49 (permalink)
Dave IR New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK, Portsmouth Posts: 47	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) There are a few EX DIR divers I dive with / have dived with who are now on CCR, they all packed in OC Trimix for the same reason and they all regularly do deep dives. A couple of them are on this forum. I found the gas logistics too much for the sort of diving I do and love, plus the fact I live in windy old England where the weather changes from morning to afternoon. As an example, I have a possible dive on Sunday ( 40m ) and will probably sign up for it. However, the long range weather forecast looks dire for Sunday. So I just assemble all my kit and fill my dil with 15/55. If I get to dive on Sunday, I have a really clear head, if not the kit is ready for the following weekend where we are diving to 75m. I just can't do this on OC without a ton of doubles+stages. I also don't have the time between dives to get the fills. The O2 Cells are the weak-point in CCR and I think they alone will prevent GUE adopting CCR until their reliability improves or another method of accurately measuring O2 in a diving application is available.
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19th November 2007, 22:58	#50 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,253	Re: Gue debating use of eccr rebreathers? I have to admit, I've been thinking more and more about going back to OC for a lot of my diving, especially caving. At <40m I just don't enjoy diving a CCR, I tend to be a hell of a lot more conservative in gas planning than I was on OC because a CO2 hit underground scares the shite out of me. Dives that I'd happily do on a twinset have become a Rebreather and two stages. The latest question mark over cell reliability is just one more knock. On the other hand, I don't enjoy OC diving deeper than 40m, I'd much rather be on a CCR. Add in scooters and I'd really not want to be a long way from home at depth and on a very finite gas supply. It's all a balancing act between the risks and advantages of one system over another in a certain situation. I like to think that I've got enough time CCR now so that I don't have to use it on every dive to build the skill set (OK, famous last words ) and that not diving CCR for a few weeks isn't going to cause me to go back to being a blundering oaf. I wouldn't go as far as to say I was DIR but I did dive in a hogarthian stylee (and probably for a good number of years before most current UK DIR divers had even heard of it) so maybe I've a tendency to keep using that mindset. I like simplicity and more and more I'm starting to see myself wanting/needing additional bits of kit to do on CCR what is essentially a simple action on OC. Scootering as an example is a pain in the arse on a CK: my Gavin and Silent Sub are right-handed scooters which mean your light is in the left which is also the arm your displays are on because they are lefthanded. So checking your pO2 is an extra hassle because you've either got to use backlit displays (which I don't), stop and swap your light over every time you want to read it(pointless), wear a head torch (which I don't like) or get a HUD (more kit/cost/complexity). It's just one more level of complication on a straightforward task. Dave is dead right, a tool is a tool. It's there to make life easier. When something starts making your life difficult and/or you start coming up with reasons for why you are using that tool then you're using the wrong tool. In deep water it is the tool of choice. In shallow water (for me) it's a waste of time. On mid range stuff then I'll take a view depending on the dive. Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) And, not for nothing, our wreck divers could give a toss for cave diving. We're just a different mission oriented group. Not everyone wants to be a cave diver and huge logistics piles don't work well on small boats. The only extra kit I have for cave diving is a couple of backup lights and a few more stages. Cave diving is often only as complex as the divers want it to look for the vast majority of cave dives. There's virtually no difference from what I use underground and in open water. Most wreckers would take more kit on a week's sea diving than I'd take on a week's caving. Though looking at the pile of srt kit, ropes and lamps on the other side of the room which is going on Ebay then I'm not so sure... Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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