David Shaw last dive on national TV

**Freef** · 7th May 2007, 07:41

If the TV broadcast was the same as the YouTube one [just looked it up] then it has the other diver explaining what went wrong, which would serve as a warning to divers about task loading and excessive work at depth.

I would be happier to see this on TV than on YouTube where there are usually some idiots commenting [only one on the thread though, the rest are reasonable], or people occasionally trawling for video's where someone has died.

If you compare the YouTube video to the one [Russian?] where the chap is diving to 91+m with the intercut shots of what looks like friends and family it is handled in a far better manner.

I didn't see the TV broadcast, hopefully it was handeled as well as the YouTube one and no offence was caused.

Locked away, no, YouTube, no, on TV is OK as is showing it at places like the dive show, and it would be a good teaching point for anyone looking at deep diving OC or Rebreather, deep being anything that you can't stand up in.

CeeBee · 7th May 2007, 14:28

Apologies, Lermy and Stefan; I'm kicking this one off again...but maybe it's a new thread on an old argument. If that's the case, apologies everyone, but I've read a lot in the last year and forgotten plenty of it.

While Lermy's poll specifically refers to one tragic incident which as Stefan stated has been debated at length, I would prefer to specifically NOT be referring to this sad case, but rather in generic terms. Lermy has in fact asked a valid question. If material exists that can teach a valuable lesson...should it be used? No brainer really, if put in those terms. Perhaps I'm biased and as I haven't yet had any success accessing the reports suggested by Simon and Gene, I'll admit I may be sadly misinformed here. Someone will put me right, I'm sure, but a search on here didn't turn up much. Yet I can't help but feel that there generally appears to be a culture of hypocrisy following an incident; and the dive community is compliant in it because you possibly only see part of what information available and accept it gratefully as so little is usually released. You risk discussing an incident without all the facts at your disposal. Formal accident investigation reports should exist, compiled by any employer involved, manufacturers and by independent examiners. Why is the community at large not demanding that they are released following coronial enquiry? You seem to accept the fact that these agencies don't exactly open themselves to scrutiny, while continuing to debate the incident only from the angle you identify closely with; that of the diver involved. Presumably the investigation process is as rigorous and transparent as the coronial one, where the press and general public have free access, so why is this an acceptable state of affairs? Even at the design stage, the FMECAs must exist for every piece of equipment out there, and fore-warned is fore-armed, right? You guys need to start shouting a bit louder...

EDIT...I should make it clear, I am not advocating that the onus for releasing details should be placed on families here. It should be taken out of their hands as part of the protocol following a verdict in the Inquiry process

**Freef** · 7th May 2007, 20:09

Chris,

Some fair points raised there. I'm not sure that everyone would be willing to have their relatives last moments shown without their consent, perhaps the way the relatives of potential organ donors are approached would be better? I know that there is a difference in time scale, but I'm sure you get my drift.

I think that the trouble with manufacturers admitting fault is the claims for compensation and the cost of recalls. To be honest, how many people will sit down to a Bernard Matthews turkey this Xmas after the bird 'flu outbreak? They will have forgotten about the reason why his stock was slaughtered.

Suunto seem to have issues with their computers locking up, I've seen three in the last three years, one the Easter just gone. Not an overly high failure rate, and I still use their computers over anything else on the market. Both my Vyper and Vytec were subject to recalls, and the D9 [I think] had a software fault.

There has been debate on here over deaths and speculation about kit failure. After the recent Rebreather death at Dorothea I heard three different versions in three days, one from someone who was there, one whose friend was there and one from "chineese whispers". All were contradictory apart from the depth and victims name.

None of this helps us find out what really happened, often no one will know for sure. Computer print outs can point in the right direction, particularly loop fO2 data, but these too are open to speculation.

If I pop my clogs I would have no problems with people knowing what happened, as I had probably made an ar$e of myself and would serve as a salutory lesson to others. I put my close call on my Dolph on here, which was entirely my fault, as was a recent trimix cockup.

Finally, I have read the book 'The Last Dive', and others associated with the spate of deaths of the people who dive the Andrea Doria, some of which show photos of the dead being recovered. Is the fact that the book and photo's are availabe really any different to the video being shown? If we can learn from them, and they are viewed without the attitude of 'let's all watch someone die' or 'here is an idiot killing themselves' then they should be in the public domain.

CeeBee · 7th May 2007, 20:51

Information can be disseminated before release, though David. It may not always be necessary to view unedited footage, photos etc, so long as in some way, the facts are put out there. And the dive itself is only part of the story. In some form and at some point in time, the law must begin to accomodate what should be released. So much of the inquiry process is already out of the control of the relatives, including the release of the final verdict and cause of death and the fact that 'selective snippets' can be reported in the press, which can change the context of an incident as a whole. Why can this not be a taken a step further so that what is released is done so 'officially' as the final step in the inquiry process, with just the facts from the accident investigation and the specifics which may save someone?

What I am badly trying to articulate is release everything possible to the agencies that can effect change in dive protocols, kit, whatever, and see that the necessary changes are indeed followed....and the responsibility for the release is taken away from the relatives like the rest of the process so that they are freed from having to make that awful decision.

The point you make about time-scale is a valid one though. At present there is a considerable delay between an incident and the inquest. Given that a thorough investigation is time-consuming, some delay must be expected. Can't really offer a solution to this point, except to state the obvious in that the whole process needs to be speeded up considerably once all the information to proceed is at hand.

divetheworld · 7th May 2007, 21:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef)

If I pop my clogs I would have no problems with people knowing what happened, as I had probably made an ar$e of myself and would serve as a salutory lesson to others. I put my close call on my Dolph on here, which was entirely my fault, as was a recent trimix cockup.

David, have you read Christines article on the effects of such incidents? Its in pdf format, I've searched through most of Chrissies posts but cant find the link. I saved a copy somewhere. It keeps you sharp. It keeps me sharp.

I havnt voted because I dont see any choices I find pallatable.Thats not a reflection on your thread or the poll, just that neither seem 'right'. Rather than make a choice, I chickened out.

Brent.

p.s. reading those old posts is a bit like looking at old pictures....lol

divelermentov · 7th May 2007, 22:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by CeeBee)

Information can be disseminated before release, though David. It may not always be necessary to view unedited footage, photos etc, so long as in some way, the facts are put out there. And the dive itself is only part of the story. In some form and at some point in time, the law must begin to accomodate what should be released. So much of the inquiry process is already out of the control of the relatives, including the release of the final verdict and cause of death and the fact that 'selective snippets' can be reported in the press, which can change the context of an incident as a whole. Why can this not be a taken a step further so that what is released is done so 'officially' as the final step in the inquiry process, with just the facts from the accident investigation and the specifics which may save someone?

What I am badly trying to articulate is release everything possible to the agencies that can effect change in dive protocols, kit, whatever, and see that the necessary changes are indeed followed....and the responsibility for the release is taken away from the relatives like the rest of the process so that they are freed from having to make that awful decision.

The point you make about time-scale is a valid one though. At present there is a considerable delay between an incident and the inquest. Given that a thorough investigation is time-consuming, some delay must be expected. Can't really offer a solution to this point, except to state the obvious in that the whole process needs to be speeded up considerably once all the information to proceed is at hand.

You are absolutely right, I think the accident analysis had to be available to other divers to be able to learn from what has happened.

And so it was in this case, we did know, in fact the report was outstanding, thanks to Simon Mitchell.
However my point is, does it belong on national TV and youtube ?
where it will not reach a target audience, but more the media making a quick bug with someones missery.
This diving accident was very clearly in the field of extreme technical diving, so in my oppinion of no value to the general audience sutting in front of the tv, except for some media hype just after the latest hollywood news.
I ma sorry if did not strat the thread and making my point clear, please excuse this (lack of english - why the h... isn't this forum in german, we are the superior race anyway

)

But these are only my .02

cheers
chris

CeeBee · 7th May 2007, 22:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by divelermentov)

However my point is, does it belong on national TV and youtube ?
where it will not reach a target audience, but more the media making a quick bug with someones missery.

Lermy, in this instance, I took the same line as Brent and did not vote. Couldn't. It's too close to home and I can't presume to comment upon the decision of another family. The footage was I assume released in accordance with their wishes and with an obvious salutory intention. I hope the way it has been circulated has not over-stepped their original intention and caused them distress. Once out there, control is lost of the material, and that's something that it's not always possible to foresee in the early days following an accident.

So not referring to this case, that's why I feel in future, this is best becoming part of the inquiry process where there is an inevitable and unavoidable delay, but perhaps the method of disseminating the information can be controlled.

divelermentov · 7th May 2007, 23:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by CeeBee)

Lermy, in this instance, I took the same line as Brent and did not vote. Couldn't. It's too close to home and I can't presume to comment upon the decision of another family. The footage was I assume released in accordance with their wishes and with an obvious salutory intention. I hope the way it has been circulated has not over-stepped their original intention and caused them distress. Once out there, control is lost of the material, and that's something that it's not always possible to foresee in the early days following an accident.

So not referring to this case, that's why I feel in future, this is best becoming part of the inquiry process where there is an inevitable and unavoidable delay, but perhaps the method of disseminating the information can be controlled.

agree, point taken

everyone stay safe

cheers
chris

**Freef** · 9th May 2007, 18:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

David, have you read Christines article on the effects of such incidents? Its in pdf format, I've searched through most of Chrissies posts but cant find the link. I saved a copy somewhere. It keeps you sharp. It keeps me sharp.

Yes, I have downloaded it after I put my foot in it and asked Chris why she owned a Rebreather but didn't dive one...

I voted 'should be shown on TV' because it excluded YouTube-where I think it shouldn't be shown, only because of the moron comments that some people make. One comment was 'why was he so deep?'

Err, because he was an explorer and recovering a body you moron, didn't you watch the video?

On TV at least the rest of us wouldn't need to hear a muppet spouting off.

View Poll Results: should David Shaw last dive been shown in public
video should be locked away	15	26.32%
video should be shown on TV	42	73.68%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

7th May 2007, 07:41	#11 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,353	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV If the TV broadcast was the same as the YouTube one [just looked it up] then it has the other diver explaining what went wrong, which would serve as a warning to divers about task loading and excessive work at depth. I would be happier to see this on TV than on YouTube where there are usually some idiots commenting [only one on the thread though, the rest are reasonable], or people occasionally trawling for video's where someone has died. If you compare the YouTube video to the one [Russian?] where the chap is diving to 91+m with the intercut shots of what looks like friends and family it is handled in a far better manner. I didn't see the TV broadcast, hopefully it was handeled as well as the YouTube one and no offence was caused. Locked away, no, YouTube, no, on TV is OK as is showing it at places like the dive show, and it would be a good teaching point for anyone looking at deep diving OC or Rebreather, deep being anything that you can't stand up in. __________________ David. Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.
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7th May 2007, 14:28	#12 (permalink)
CeeBee Found pills and ate them. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Liverpool Posts: 1,016	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Apologies, Lermy and Stefan; I'm kicking this one off again...but maybe it's a new thread on an old argument. If that's the case, apologies everyone, but I've read a lot in the last year and forgotten plenty of it. While Lermy's poll specifically refers to one tragic incident which as Stefan stated has been debated at length, I would prefer to specifically NOT be referring to this sad case, but rather in generic terms. Lermy has in fact asked a valid question. If material exists that can teach a valuable lesson...should it be used? No brainer really, if put in those terms. Perhaps I'm biased and as I haven't yet had any success accessing the reports suggested by Simon and Gene, I'll admit I may be sadly misinformed here. Someone will put me right, I'm sure, but a search on here didn't turn up much. Yet I can't help but feel that there generally appears to be a culture of hypocrisy following an incident; and the dive community is compliant in it because you possibly only see part of what information available and accept it gratefully as so little is usually released. You risk discussing an incident without all the facts at your disposal. Formal accident investigation reports should exist, compiled by any employer involved, manufacturers and by independent examiners. Why is the community at large not demanding that they are released following coronial enquiry? You seem to accept the fact that these agencies don't exactly open themselves to scrutiny, while continuing to debate the incident only from the angle you identify closely with; that of the diver involved. Presumably the investigation process is as rigorous and transparent as the coronial one, where the press and general public have free access, so why is this an acceptable state of affairs? Even at the design stage, the FMECAs must exist for every piece of equipment out there, and fore-warned is fore-armed, right? You guys need to start shouting a bit louder... EDIT...I should make it clear, I am not advocating that the onus for releasing details should be placed on families here. It should be taken out of their hands as part of the protocol following a verdict in the Inquiry process __________________ "In Ceebs We Trust. All others pay cash." Denz 1973-2007 King of the One-Liners www.justgiving.com/markginsberg1 Last edited by CeeBee : 7th May 2007 at 15:34. Reason: clarity
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7th May 2007, 20:09	#13 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,353	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Chris, Some fair points raised there. I'm not sure that everyone would be willing to have their relatives last moments shown without their consent, perhaps the way the relatives of potential organ donors are approached would be better? I know that there is a difference in time scale, but I'm sure you get my drift. I think that the trouble with manufacturers admitting fault is the claims for compensation and the cost of recalls. To be honest, how many people will sit down to a Bernard Matthews turkey this Xmas after the bird 'flu outbreak? They will have forgotten about the reason why his stock was slaughtered. Suunto seem to have issues with their computers locking up, I've seen three in the last three years, one the Easter just gone. Not an overly high failure rate, and I still use their computers over anything else on the market. Both my Vyper and Vytec were subject to recalls, and the D9 [I think] had a software fault. There has been debate on here over deaths and speculation about kit failure. After the recent Rebreather death at Dorothea I heard three different versions in three days, one from someone who was there, one whose friend was there and one from "chineese whispers". All were contradictory apart from the depth and victims name. None of this helps us find out what really happened, often no one will know for sure. Computer print outs can point in the right direction, particularly loop fO2 data, but these too are open to speculation. If I pop my clogs I would have no problems with people knowing what happened, as I had probably made an ar$e of myself and would serve as a salutory lesson to others. I put my close call on my Dolph on here, which was entirely my fault, as was a recent trimix cockup. Finally, I have read the book 'The Last Dive', and others associated with the spate of deaths of the people who dive the Andrea Doria, some of which show photos of the dead being recovered. Is the fact that the book and photo's are availabe really any different to the video being shown? If we can learn from them, and they are viewed without the attitude of 'let's all watch someone die' or 'here is an idiot killing themselves' then they should be in the public domain. __________________ David. Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.
(Offline)

7th May 2007, 20:51	#14 (permalink)
CeeBee Found pills and ate them. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Liverpool Posts: 1,016	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Information can be disseminated before release, though David. It may not always be necessary to view unedited footage, photos etc, so long as in some way, the facts are put out there. And the dive itself is only part of the story. In some form and at some point in time, the law must begin to accomodate what should be released. So much of the inquiry process is already out of the control of the relatives, including the release of the final verdict and cause of death and the fact that 'selective snippets' can be reported in the press, which can change the context of an incident as a whole. Why can this not be a taken a step further so that what is released is done so 'officially' as the final step in the inquiry process, with just the facts from the accident investigation and the specifics which may save someone? What I am badly trying to articulate is release everything possible to the agencies that can effect change in dive protocols, kit, whatever, and see that the necessary changes are indeed followed....and the responsibility for the release is taken away from the relatives like the rest of the process so that they are freed from having to make that awful decision. The point you make about time-scale is a valid one though. At present there is a considerable delay between an incident and the inquest. Given that a thorough investigation is time-consuming, some delay must be expected. Can't really offer a solution to this point, except to state the obvious in that the whole process needs to be speeded up considerably once all the information to proceed is at hand. __________________ "In Ceebs We Trust. All others pay cash." Denz 1973-2007 King of the One-Liners www.justgiving.com/markginsberg1 Last edited by CeeBee : 7th May 2007 at 21:01.
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7th May 2007, 21:25	#15 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,586	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef) If I pop my clogs I would have no problems with people knowing what happened, as I had probably made an ar$e of myself and would serve as a salutory lesson to others. I put my close call on my Dolph on here, which was entirely my fault, as was a recent trimix cockup. David, have you read Christines article on the effects of such incidents? Its in pdf format, I've searched through most of Chrissies posts but cant find the link. I saved a copy somewhere. It keeps you sharp. It keeps me sharp. I havnt voted because I dont see any choices I find pallatable.Thats not a reflection on your thread or the poll, just that neither seem 'right'. Rather than make a choice, I chickened out. Brent. p.s. reading those old posts is a bit like looking at old pictures....lol __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe Last edited by divetheworld : 7th May 2007 at 21:27.
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7th May 2007, 22:19	#16 (permalink)
divelermentov Nutty dentist - uwdriller Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Auckland Posts: 645	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Quote: (Originally Posted by CeeBee) Information can be disseminated before release, though David. It may not always be necessary to view unedited footage, photos etc, so long as in some way, the facts are put out there. And the dive itself is only part of the story. In some form and at some point in time, the law must begin to accomodate what should be released. So much of the inquiry process is already out of the control of the relatives, including the release of the final verdict and cause of death and the fact that 'selective snippets' can be reported in the press, which can change the context of an incident as a whole. Why can this not be a taken a step further so that what is released is done so 'officially' as the final step in the inquiry process, with just the facts from the accident investigation and the specifics which may save someone? What I am badly trying to articulate is release everything possible to the agencies that can effect change in dive protocols, kit, whatever, and see that the necessary changes are indeed followed....and the responsibility for the release is taken away from the relatives like the rest of the process so that they are freed from having to make that awful decision. The point you make about time-scale is a valid one though. At present there is a considerable delay between an incident and the inquest. Given that a thorough investigation is time-consuming, some delay must be expected. Can't really offer a solution to this point, except to state the obvious in that the whole process needs to be speeded up considerably once all the information to proceed is at hand. You are absolutely right, I think the accident analysis had to be available to other divers to be able to learn from what has happened. And so it was in this case, we did know, in fact the report was outstanding, thanks to Simon Mitchell. However my point is, does it belong on national TV and youtube ? where it will not reach a target audience, but more the media making a quick bug with someones missery. This diving accident was very clearly in the field of extreme technical diving, so in my oppinion of no value to the general audience sutting in front of the tv, except for some media hype just after the latest hollywood news. I ma sorry if did not strat the thread and making my point clear, please excuse this (lack of english - why the h... isn't this forum in german, we are the superior race anyway ) But these are only my .02 cheers chris __________________ May The Sorb Be With You
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7th May 2007, 22:56	#17 (permalink)
CeeBee Found pills and ate them. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Liverpool Posts: 1,016	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Quote: (Originally Posted by divelermentov) However my point is, does it belong on national TV and youtube ? where it will not reach a target audience, but more the media making a quick bug with someones missery. Lermy, in this instance, I took the same line as Brent and did not vote. Couldn't. It's too close to home and I can't presume to comment upon the decision of another family. The footage was I assume released in accordance with their wishes and with an obvious salutory intention. I hope the way it has been circulated has not over-stepped their original intention and caused them distress. Once out there, control is lost of the material, and that's something that it's not always possible to foresee in the early days following an accident. So not referring to this case, that's why I feel in future, this is best becoming part of the inquiry process where there is an inevitable and unavoidable delay, but perhaps the method of disseminating the information can be controlled. __________________ "In Ceebs We Trust. All others pay cash." Denz 1973-2007 King of the One-Liners www.justgiving.com/markginsberg1
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7th May 2007, 23:56	#18 (permalink)
divelermentov Nutty dentist - uwdriller Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Auckland Posts: 645	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Quote: (Originally Posted by CeeBee) Lermy, in this instance, I took the same line as Brent and did not vote. Couldn't. It's too close to home and I can't presume to comment upon the decision of another family. The footage was I assume released in accordance with their wishes and with an obvious salutory intention. I hope the way it has been circulated has not over-stepped their original intention and caused them distress. Once out there, control is lost of the material, and that's something that it's not always possible to foresee in the early days following an accident. So not referring to this case, that's why I feel in future, this is best becoming part of the inquiry process where there is an inevitable and unavoidable delay, but perhaps the method of disseminating the information can be controlled. agree, point taken everyone stay safe cheers chris __________________ May The Sorb Be With You
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9th May 2007, 18:37	#19 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,353	Re: David Shaw last dive on national TV Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) David, have you read Christines article on the effects of such incidents? Its in pdf format, I've searched through most of Chrissies posts but cant find the link. I saved a copy somewhere. It keeps you sharp. It keeps me sharp. Yes, I have downloaded it after I put my foot in it and asked Chris why she owned a Rebreather but didn't dive one... I voted 'should be shown on TV' because it excluded YouTube-where I think it shouldn't be shown, only because of the moron comments that some people make. One comment was 'why was he so deep?' Err, because he was an explorer and recovering a body you moron, didn't you watch the video? On TV at least the rest of us wouldn't need to hear a muppet spouting off. __________________ David. Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.
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