Drager Panorama Nova FFM

Scott

Forgive me if this is a silly question, I'm still a noobie

Quick and Dirty followed by the longer explanation:

I want to get the OC version of the Drager Panorama full face mask, and use it in the future for CCR. The reason I want the OC version is it has an oral nasal mask, and no bite mouthpiece, as opposed to the rebreather version which has no oral nasal mask, and a bite mouthpiece.

The Apeks technical paper says that it wont work. That using the OC version with a rebreather will cause the mask to be 'blown off the face.' That sounds bogus to me.

"The special operations mask and sports mask cannot be used with the Drager Dolphin re-breather as the mask would be blown off the face due to the absence of a bite mouthpiece, which would complete the breathing loop. For anyone to use a Drager Panorama full face mask in conjunction with a re-breather they have to purchase the re-breather version of the mask, no other version of the mask can be used.
(from page 6 of http://www.apeks.co.uk/products/Full...ech%20Spec.pdf)

Pictures of the differences are available on that pdf as well.



Longer explanation:

I am in the process of purchasing my equipment to use while I am working up my OC qualifications, but I want as much as possible to be compatible with a future CCR purchase or homebuild. As such, the Drager Panorama seems a good piece of equipment. I would be able to purchase it with either an Apeks TX100 or a Drager Shark regulator to use as a primary 2nd stage now, and then after I transfer to CCR, I could move it to a side port on the mask to have as an OC bailout.

The OC version seems like it would be better using with a rebreather due to the oral nasal mask forming a partial seal to somewhat trap the warm humid air from the loop, without requiring one to constantly hold the bite mouthpiece in one's mouth.

Beyond that, if one were to use communications, the bite mouthpiece would be a major pain.. which.. the fact sheet says that communications CAN be used with the bite mouth piece, which would leave me to believe the diver would have to open his/her mouth, which by their description would result in the mask being 'blown off the face.'

Further, if one were to use the rebreather version, and have to switch to OC bailout, it seems as though the bite mouthpiece would be interfering with the delivery of air from the peripherally mounted 2nd stage regulator.

Thank you VERY much for any comments advice or ideas you may have,

Scott

caveseeker7

One thing up front, the Dräger Shark is crap. Get the Apeks instead.

I've gotta say that's just about the oddest thing I've ever heard.
I wonder if that is a problem unique to the high cmf flow rates possible on the Dräger (and like SCRs). They add considerably more gas than usually needed and vent the excess. Maybe it's that high gas flow they're talking about.

Don't quite remember the exact flow path in the Dräger OC, but I think it's akin the AGA's, the gas flows past the shield before inhalation. That's great on OC, but warm, moist Rebreather gas will have the opposite effect and fog it up.

A second concern is the large dead space of an oral nasal cavity, hence the need for the bite piece.

Personally I like the AGA for OC, very high quality mask with a top notch second stage. It can be converted for Rebreather use, there is an article in our library.

For use with a Rebreather, or RB and OC the M-48 Supermask from Kirby-Morgan is the ticket. It doesn't have an oral nasal cavity so it needs defogging just like any half mask does. But the pod is removable, you can either use your current 2nd stage or K-M's Superflow, also a top notch product. Pods can be easily and quickly changed, and with some luck we'll be able to get our hands on the RB pods. Until then the OC pod can be used with a DSV or BOV. The bellows on either version allows you to use the bite piece or use comms as needed.

Just my 2¢.

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which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"

leptonyx

That certainly is bogus. We have had free-flowing regs (converted Poseidon Cyclons) on a Panorama Nova and even that did not manage to "blow the mask off the face", although the poor guy diving it certainly thought so for a second...

That is - partly - correct, but not for the above stated reasons.

I can assure you that this will work, although your head will start to feel slightly "christmas-tree-ish"...

Nope, of course you can use communication while diving a bitepiece-equipped FFM, but you will not be very "arcticulate" as you still have some part of the mouthpiece between your teeth.

But of course, if you are diving a rebreather you will at least not have the additional problem of exhaled gas bubbles rushing out off your mask and past your head while you are trying to convey or receive a message from your tender...

Again, I beg to differ:

if you use the Panorama Nova with mouth/nose inner mask (=OC version) and then connect another 2. stage to it, guess what will interfere with the airflow once you shut off your main air source (OC or SCR, doesn't matter) and want to switch to the secondary source: that bloody inner mask!

Obviously,it is designed to ensure that *ONLY* the air from your primary (=central port) air supply reaches your mouth and nose, and unless you switch regs between ports (which is of course a possibility, but something I would NOT plan to have to do in case of an emergency) you are "stuck" to that main air source on that one port.

On the other hand, the SCR version of the Panorama FFM is cleverly made in that you can "spit out" the bitepiece, i.e. push it forward and partly out of your mouth, for example when you want to speak, breathe at the surface with one port open/one port plug removed, or - bingo - when you had to shut your loop and switch to your bail-out instead.

So the bitepiece version is in fact a solution which is working well, I have to hand that to the people in Lubeck at Dr. Safety.

All in all, my advice would be the following: since you are currently getting started with OC diving and wish to use the Panorama, get it in OC configuration and try it out for a while. If you really like it, and if you really want to take it to the next level (i.e. "bubblefree" ) then all you need to do is call the Draeger dealership, ask for the conversion kit OC->SCR and affix the bitepiece.

I know, I know, a FFM with a bitepiece... I don't like it either, trust me, but it does work and it fixes all those airflow/dead airspace/bail-out/comm usage and other issues.

(hey, I should know, I was their 'guinea pig' for a while...)

Drmike

Hi,

In the gallery is a pic of the Boris Nova FFM. It has a Boris dsv in the main port, no oral nasal cavity and a OC 2nd stage in the side port.


What is the deal with the OC reg in the side of the mask.? If you close the Rebreather dsv, and start breathing from that 2nd stage (as a bail) you will have a lot of dead space no? I would imagine the wob would be high as the mask volume expands/contracts off the face as you breathe too.

Whats your take on that?

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'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

leptonyx

Yes actually that is the reason why I would only use a side-mounted alternative reg for temporal use, until you switch back/ switch to some other primary reg that you put into the central port again. It depends on the reg whether the mask "wobbles" a lot on your face but it is definitely harder to breathe, and add to this "christmas tree-head effect", i.e. having all kinds of things connected to your FFM front (loop/reg), sides(comm, 2nd reg), top (torch), straps (receiver pouch, backup light) that is just too much stuff!

The Scubapro FFM offers a similar plug-in overload, and all the people that I know who got one, tried it, and connected all things in all ways possible ended up stripping them all off again sooner or later (including me )

Scott

Wow... see what happens when I don't check in for a few months.... amazingly detailed replies =)


Thank you very much.. All my concerns are answered...

And I now have 41 OC dives, and have already been somewhat naughty by getting some technical training (too early, I know.. but I was under very good circumstances... 2 instructors 1 student

Take care,

Scott

RonMicjan

I have the mask in question and use it on my megalodon, like it a lot, have only dived it to 400fsw, but expect to rectify that soon.
You must use the bite mouthpeice on a CCR, other wise the mask becomes an additional counterlung without the benefit of a scubber. you can rebreathe the gas in the mask without exchanging it through the mushroom valves and the rest of the loop, if you are breathing shallow, you will most likely have a co2 hit or pass out rather rapidly. The reason you can get away without the bite peice on OC is the mask is constantly being flushed by fresh gas. Yes, to speak you let go of the bite peice, say your peice, and then reaquire the bite. For bailout, you can either plug a second stage to another port, and then nose breathe to bailout, while you sort things out. Or just plan to remove the loop from the front port and swap it with the OC reg.

The mask is very comfortable and gives a pretty good feild of view (for a FFM), the KM supermask is not comfortable, IMHO, and really doesnt give many benefits of FFM on a CCR, you have to carry an extra pod for OC (or you lose comms) the draeger you keep comms when you bailout.

As for the mask blowing off, not likely with the quality of the strap system, however, if you are using a Rebreather with back mounted CL, when you roll over on your back, the hydro static pressure most likely will blow the mask away from your face venting your loop. I get that sensation when I am ascending and I roll right to vent the loop through the OPV on the bottom of the exhale CL of the MEG.
See this link for a discussion that entailed when I got my mask.http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showt...&referrerid=26

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paulraymaekers

hello guys, the bite piece is also there if you want to do a flush! (how else would you do?? when you want to vacuum you breather)

regards
paul

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