Drager Panorama/Golem BOV bailout scenarios

mempilot

So as I understand, what scenarios are they disconnecting and reconnecting the QC?

The nasal OC reg and BOV are plumbed to plenty of offboard gas. The only time the switch is neccessary is during a deco mix change (hardly a stressfull event). I find it easier than un-porting a reg/BOV and replacing it with a new one. I'll give it a try and see how I like it.

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kybrt

which qc do you prefer matt and why?

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Drmike

I see having QC whips on all stages as expensive and adding risk of failure (hose or QC) preffer to KISS

I have all bail tank 2nd stages fitted with p-port adapters which i slide a normal apeks mouthbite over in case someone else needs to use it. (actually you can breathe straight from a p-port adapter its not comfortable and you feel a big gay but its doable in an emergency.

The mouthbite also protects the o-ring

In event of a bail I plug them in to my main p-port (i dont use a bov as with the side reg I dont see the need)

I have a maniflold with three hoses, one goes to a QC by my left side hip which I connect my deepest bail tank to, one goes to my wing and the other to the side reg.

I agree with Matt re:using QC in stressed conditions (or with frozen hands)

Im using swagelok QC6s - Id NEVER rely on APD QC for critical appliaction! been there LOST all that gas

You need to ensure the QC can give plenty of flow as your relying on it for primary bail. This is one reason I like to use standad 2nd stage as bail. Doing that I only have a single hose between me and gas supply, no elbows, no QCs, no Y pieces. Max flow rate gas and KISS.

Something else to consider, as Matt will tell you, when were doing one of our deep cave expeditions we usually have lots of stage tanks which we beg borrow and steel regs from wherever we can get them. People dont like you pulling off their mouthbites and adding p-port adapters and Im not about to invest in and carry around with me a dozen or more QC and hoses so what I do is just loosen the borrowed 2nd stages so they are hand tight (mine are all set up this way too) then if I do need to use those stage tanks (after Ive breathed all my p-ported ones empty) I simply swap 2nd stages with one of my p-ported ones underwater. In next months exped we may have 12 stage tanks plus ones Im carrying. The ones Im carrying will be p-ported - the rest likely not as they wont be my regs so I use the above method. The idea is when youve emptied the p-ported ones you should be well into deco = calm and no rush, at that stage you have plenty of time to swap 2nd stages. Having hand tight 2nd stages is also great when you get free flowing reg or bad breather (cos its full of clay )

And of course if all this crap with mask, p-ports etc etc all goes tits up, I pull mask off, don my normal mask (which I carry in pocket) and use standard 2nd stages (or p-ported ones with mouthbites pulled over)

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tecdivertraining

swagelok QC6s - Id NEVER rely on APD QC for critical appliaction! been there LOST all that gas

these, better more solid connection, and easy to release, Just cost a bit more in the set up.

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tecdivertraining

OK , if your running it all directly of the Off- board, I get you, I never found it worked for me as gearing up was a bit of a nightmare especially on a rough sea without help or assistance. and I could not get good routing without adding those crap elbows and swivels that added more failure points.

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Lancer4545

Hey Eric,

It looks like you're starting to have some fun.......Expect to buy around $500 to $600 of fittings and other parts you will eventually pull off and wish you never had. How do I know

I have been messing around with the BOV and FFM for a while now and if I can save you some time, money and effort....read on as I have most likely done everything you are about to do or haven't thought of yet and are about to do so!! Just ask Matt....he has seen a few of my combinations but by all means not all.

Remember the KISS principle..."Keep It Simple Stupid" now this not only goes for the set up but also for the "Functionality" and ease of use. Try not to make the hoses look like a spaghetti factory and keep it as simple as possible.

I think you're on the right track with the plumbing......I can't see the benefit on changing the BOV inlet and the HUD but if it works for you......

This is where my nice manifold comes into it's own.....It's mounted behind your left shoulder behind the XH CL and sits horizontal with the dil inlet coming up into a single port at the rear. There are 4 ports pointing down in the direction of the CL and are used to supply gas to the ADV, BOV second stage, Wing inflation and the last one is for your offboard gas inlet. (more on this one in a minute)

There is 1 port in each end of the manifold. The one nearest the center of the unit now supplies gas around behind your head to the APEKS second stage which is in the side P'Port. The other port is plugged or used for something else.

You can hose them up in any configuration you like. I have a hose for suit inflation on it for when I am diving with air dil.

It should be starting to look a bit like this.

Manifold Hoses 003.jpg

I think it's quite neat and works very well.

With the offboard gas I take the same bailout as my dil this way you're not going to get any nasty surprises!!! I have an M&J quick disconnect female fitted to a short hose on the stage tanks first stage. The reason for this is I can disconnect it and it will not free flow as the fitting has a flowstop built into it. Now I can pass it off or ditch it or whatever without loosing any gas whilst the tank is still turned on. Handy if you have to donate gas to someone. I have a din hose and a second stage with a bite mouthpiece. The din can be fitted to any fitting on the unit and can also be used for suit or DSMB inflation. The second stage can now be used by anyone, including you, easily and without the P'Port which is just simply a pain in the ass!!!!

I think this is nice to have the bite mouthpiece in case you have to ditch the FFM and use a 1/2 mask for whatever reason and now that you have a BOV and can access your bailout gas why bother with another P'Port on the stage tank....You simply don't need it!!!

The hose from the manifold which will connect with the other half of the M&J QD (which is the male end) is fitted with a M&J check valve (one way valve) and will not allow dil to flow back to the stage tank in the event of gas loss or having donated you second stage to a buddy. It's other function is as a flow stop and will automatically act to eliminate any gas flow/loss when it's disconnected.

I have left both hoses long enough to be able to pull them out in front of you so you can easily see the connectors when you want to either disconnect or connect them.

It should look something like this...

Manifold Hoses 012.jpg

Manifold Hoses 007.jpg

I tried a few different ways to mount the HUD (ISC are presently working on a longer one for use with the FFM for us) and came up with a solution that seems to work well. I fitted the HUD stem in the usual position and got a spare stem and sawed the mounting base off it leaving just the vertical stem. I then drilled a small hole on the centre line and up around 3/8" up from the bottom and put a small SS screw with a large diameter flat washer on it.

Now all you do is slip the cut off stem over the top of the existing stem and centre the screw in the opening the HUD would have normally gone in. The flat washer is on the outside and you do up the screw and it's ready to mount your HUD.

I love it....You can tilt the top part of the stem anywhere you like and it's easy to get out of the way when packing it away. And best of all if you decide to ditch the FFM and use a 1/2 mask you undo the screw and put the extension in your tool kit and use the original stem......
Cool Eh??

20080214_089s.jpg

Let me know if you'd like more info or pics...That should have you thinking for a while

Regards,

Lance

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mempilot

Lance,

Thanks for the pics. I'll show you what I've done, and I just got back from pool testing it:

1. Flipped BOV internals to exit diver right
2. BOV hose routes right over the top of the nasal OC 2nd
3. They both curve back behind the diver and join in a Y-Block
4. Single point gas hose terminates at diver's chest with QC
5. Each bailout bottle has a whip reg hose terminating in a shutoff and QC
6. Each bailout bottle retains a standard 2nd stage for donation or diver use
7. Credit card sized MOD slates will be zip tied to the end of each whip

Benefits:
KISS
No switching blocks
No manifolds
Simple OC gas switches (take place in front of diver's face or chest)
BOV and nasal OC run from offboard large supply (can be shutoff for freeflow)
No restriction to head movement

I tested the hose routing in the pool today with outstanding results. The only thing to sort out is the nose clearing as the levers don't seem to put the knobs where they need to be. I'll play with that tonight.

I'm very happy with the visibility from the mask. Huge field of vision. The HUD mount placement works great, but is not right in your face as before. I may need to think about a tall stalk and put it back on the other side. I'll take a few more dives to determine suitability.

All in all, I'm very happy with this configuration, and it allows for buddies to take a donated reg or bottle. It guarrentees that all OC gas comes from the same source.

If someone didn't like the M&J QC, they could use any others that fit their needs. We dive warm water down here, so no dry gloves. If I were to go to the cold, I'll think about switching to the large fittings like SP uses.

Attached Images

	Mask Plumbing1.JPG (159.8 KB, 103 views)
	Mask Plumbing2.JPG (135.4 KB, 104 views)

__________________
MEM "Da Pilot"

Black holes are where God divided by zero.

"If at first you don't succeed, don't dive silent."

"Would you mind not shooting at the thermo-nuclear weapons." ~ Vic Deakins

"Donkey's kill more people annually than plane crashes."

jkaterenchuk

Looks nice Eric. I will look forward to seeing it in person.

John

Drmike

Hmmm, When I experimented with having both sets of hoses coming from same side I found the hoses (when pressurised and therefore stiff) did make head movement to that side harder.



The issuse with some QCs is more the limiting flow rate through them. Your adding a QC, shut off valve, Y manifold and swivel between you and your gas supply - best to minimise pressure losses where possible when your facing high RMV at depth, which is why my QC is only for side reg - real bail is direct form off board 2nd stages with no elbows, qcs or flow stops =KISS


Personally I dont see need for BOV if you have a side reg (or visa versa) I dont see that as KISS. To me one of the major benefits of the side reg is you can continue to breathe during gas switching. - With your configuration you wont be able to do that as your side reg and bov are fed from same supply

For you a gas switch will go something like this:

1) Find your next bail tanks QC, pull out hose..hold it in your right hand
2) Turn off current offboard bail tank valve with your left hand?
3) Breathe few more breaths from current offboard tank until pressure = zero*
4) Hold breath and fumble to disconnect QC (which takes 2 hands so you drop the new QC from your right hand)
5) Still holding breath try to relocate dropped new QC and then connect new QC (Fumble fumble fumble., why wont it connect?..fumble fumble, connect will you!, fumble fumble - need to breathe!, fumble fumble, getting stressed, fumble, fumble need to breathe, getting more stressed, wont connect! Oh shit!! [been there done that ]


At this point your only opition (unless you have p-port adapted 2nd stages on bail tank) is to violently rip off your full face mask and whilst recovering from shock of cold water on face and loss of vision adding even more stress to an already stressful situiation you struggle to find your bail gas 2nd stage and turn valve on. ..ahh a good day out




In contrast my bail goes like this;

1) Begin nose breathing from side reg.
2) fumble for p-ported 2nd stage (take as long as you want because your side reg is plumbed into same bail tank)
3) casually, at your leasure, insert 2nd stage into front p-port opening
4) stop nose breathing and start mouth breathing


And for me it will be the same at each subseqent gas switch

KISS


There are many reasons why a QC can be hard to connect underwater:

(issues Ive had with APD and Swagelock)

1) Dirt gets into female QC (APD/S)
2) Connecting pin gets damaged/bent (S)
3) Internal failure - seal extrudes preventing operation (APD)
4) Forgot to depressurize 2nd stage side of QC (APD,S)
5) Crud inside QC (APD)

Add stress of needing to breathe to the mix and any of the above (or just clumsiness in lining up QC) can lead to a need-to-breathe panic


Bottom line to me is I see a disconnected QC as an additional barrier between me and my bail gas. its an unecessary barrier (as you have 2nd stages on your bail tanks) it gives no real advantage (other than percieved comfort advantage of staying on bov....) but adds considerable risk if it fails to connect quickly enough or at all as it could means you cant breathe (without first ripping off your ffm) and if that wasnt enough reason, adding qcs to all bail tanks adds failiure points, considerable cost and chances are high that your bov doesnt even breathe as well as your offboard 2nd stages anyway


So personally I would sell the BOV, put p-port adapters on your offboard 2nd stages (with mouthbites pulled over them for non ffm buddies) and KISS. Indeed I would rather only have the 1st deep bail tank 2md stage fitted with a p-port adapter and plan on bailing off the ffm to back up normal mask at next gas switch then add compexity and failure points of a bov and heap of qcs....but thats just me Each to his own






*
2 and 3 best done because:

1) In case of QC stuck open failure in which case you will loose heaps of gas at depth, gas that your life may still depend on if your bail calcs are wrong [lesson learnt hard way]
2) Most QCs are impossible to re-connect if 2nd stage side is still pressurised!! (see one cause of 5 above), another lesson learnt the hard way

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mempilot

The shut off valve can't roll off. It is an inline valve with positive detent, same as used on the ADV.

When kitted up, it is located right on the center of the chest. Can't be easier to find.

This configuration is only for OC bailout/OC deco and is already hooked up for deep nasal or BOV bailout. The shut off located in this position is infinately easier to operate than locating it on next to the reg (ie. no reaching through loop and one stop shopping for everything needed to make the switch)

I did a shake down pool dive today with very pleasing results. I'm conducting two ocean dives tomorrow. Head movement was completely unrestricted (no exageration). The hoses are looped back around the head, but below the rear loop hoses. The movement is no different than using a long hose looped in the same manner.

No flow restriction through the M&J. See photo. There is no pressure loss at the reg what so ever. With a IP gauge on a short hose off a LP port, the gauge reads 140 psi. With a IP gauge down line after the QC, shutoff, and Y-block where the reg would be plugged in, it still reads 140 psi. This was a requirement for me on this configuration. If there had been any pressure drop, I would have reconsidered.

I'm not using the nasal BO reg to breath during a gas switch. That would mean the nasal reg and the BOV would need to come from different gas supplies, and I find that potentially dangerous. Doing the switch takes less than 10 seconds when done slow and methodical.

Will actually go like this:

1. Deep bailout is already hooked up on on
-First gas switch:
2. Verify next bottle is pressurized
3. Hold current whip with right hand
4. Slide shutoff off with left hand
5. Slide disconnect with right hand
6. Pull out next whip with right hand and verify MOD placard
7. Plug in next whip
8. Slide shutoff on with left hand
9. Purge and breath

This is so simple it's silly. I'll have someone video it being performed when we get the chance.

This feed hose is held in place by the harness. It's not dropping anywhere. If all shit hits the fan, I still have 2nd stages on all bottles. We are all used to doing gas switches while blowing bubbles, right? OC days.

65 to 85 deg water is hardly cold. Dropping a whip is no big deal. Trace the hand back to the 1st stage and start over. This isn't rocket science, and is simpler than a 2nd stage deployment by any stretch of the imagination. Me thinks you are overcomplicating things a bit in your description. I think if a OW student can find a reg behind their back, I can find a whip in front or beside me. Like I said, I'll video tape all the blunders that can happen and post them so you can give me the DrMike Good Seal of Approval!


Well, you missed a few critical steps in there Mike. If I take out the verification steps, my list is as short as yours.

What gas is your nasal reg plugged into? Is it breathable at all depths? Once you do the switch on the mouth, you now have two different mixes for possible breathing. Not KISS in my mind at all. You say that they are both plugged in to the same tank, but not once you make the mouth switch. If so, you are set up the same as me.


Hmmm. That's what that pesky inline shutoff is for.


Thought of that. Worked fine today. Can always purge the line after shutoff and prior to disconnect. Not neccessary though. Like I said, this QC worked fine today. I'll verify this again tomorrow to please you.


This is a very simple and effective way to do gas switches over standard OC practices that the majority of Rebreather divers have to perform. Everything happens right in front of the face or chest. No running running around the neck or exposing your mouth to the sea. Just a plug and play. Twist it however you want. It's stupid simple.

Attached Images

140psi.JPG (153.4 KB, 90 views)

__________________
MEM "Da Pilot"

Black holes are where God divided by zero.

"If at first you don't succeed, don't dive silent."

"Would you mind not shooting at the thermo-nuclear weapons." ~ Vic Deakins

"Donkey's kill more people annually than plane crashes."