Heating systems - many deco risks?

viscya · 20th December 2006, 15:57

Has anyone tried these?

Here is a letter documenting drysuit tests of the product.

Dutchy · 20th December 2006, 19:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by viscya)

Has anyone tried these?

Here is a letter documenting drysuit tests of the product.

Only on the surface and they work well for a short while. I'd try in such a fashion that you can remove it quickly. Under increased pressure the phase change may be quicker or slower (I think I didn't pay attention during the CO2 tripple point and phase change test i guess). Quicker is not a good idea..nor is spontenious activation under increased pressure as that would mean using up all the heat at the beginning of the dive and suffering cold (and who knows what else) at the end of the dive.

Faceless · 20th December 2006, 19:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

2. There are a number of companies making self stabilising heating materials, such as from EXO2 and some Russian sources. These use a carbon loaded material which increases in resistance dramatically with temperature. If you do this sort of thing, this is what you need. You need about 100W of heating to be worthwhile, otherwise buy an Aerogel undersuit: safer, cheaper and very cosy.

Wow, Alex you continue to surprise us with invaluable info

Where is this mysterious Aerogel undersuit can be seen on photos ?
Hear some "ranting" about it about half a year ago, when i've ordered my Thinsulate 400 undersuit.How much does it cost ?

So far All i've found about aerogel was this info:
http://www.rubicon-foundation.org:80...123456789/3487

Sorry for asking stupid question, but I didn't found any more useful about it so far

Russ · 20th December 2006, 20:01

I know a few people that use the patco pads which come in (25, 35 and 50 watts )some use 2 25 watt pads (front torso, back torso) and others use 1 50 watt, those with the 50 watt tend to get little blisters filled with just gas, they assume its helium which means I will go with the twin 25 watt. If you already have a canister to use the pads are pretty cheap.

They also use the patco wetsuit heating pads instead of the dry suit ones with the idea being that even if your dry suit flooded the pads would still function.

Russ

Gene_Hobbs · 21st December 2006, 00:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless)

Where is this mysterious <cut> Aerogel undersuit can be seen on photos?

sorry for the cross post but here is the thread on this at DIRexplorers: Space-Age Undersuit - DIR Explorers

Below are two files from Lew Nuckols. Lew has been a driving force behind the research of Aerogel for the US Navy. DUI has played a VERY big role in development of this product (as they do most of the military thermal protection projects).

"Attached are two photos that you might post. One shows the appearance of the aerogel monolith that gets impregnated into the diving suit. The other shows a pre-production garment being dressed out on a thermal manikin to measure insulation values. We confirmed last month that the aerogel garment had 76% higher insulation than a commercial M400 Thinsulate garment. The Navy is currently diving these garments in extreme cold missions and the feedback is very positive."

As for cost, they are a few thousand US now because they have to be made by hand in a clean room. It will get better once the final system is in place. (and no, there is no ETA for these)

DrJM · 21st December 2006, 10:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

I use the Typhoon heated jacket system, it works well with an hour or so duration for deco, however I have 2 battery packs for 2 hours.My buddy Phil is looking at adapting a MetalSub battery pack for longer duration, I know Jerome, DrJM has done something similar.

After 3 years of freezing my ass on long deco I choose:

1) habitat at -12m

by being on OC O2 you warm up the habitat +5 deg cel from the water temp( ex 13 deg water -> +/- 18 deg habitat)

2) if no habitat = Typhoon (very warm and homogene on the back and chest), fami was ok ish, homemade always trouble ...

3) Metalsub 12 A = 3 h with the Typhoon

4) for longeur deco = homemade 48 A

guys from ekpp does the same they plug their homemade resistant teeshirt on battery size scooter body

The worst thing is not always in the water ! actually in the Lot county in France the water is 13 deg cel, but outside is -6 deg

just enough to freeze on the shore of the spring and if you leave the ccr overnight in an outside barn or van you'll have a frozen loop and canister

in the morning

Merry xmas

Jerome

AD_ward9 · 22nd December 2006, 15:11

Safety Update: I mentioned in an earlier post, suitability of carbon self limiting materials. Just such a unit failed test yesterday, with a fire and gross overheating, caused by a little water getting into them and them being lightly folded earlier.

The Typhoon type units are not safe in a marine environment.

On Monday I will post photographs.

This means that unless the heating system has been specially designed for diving use, and does not involve heated wire, then anyone using it for diving is taking a serious risk.

Diving units require a different conductor makeup, different spacing, different materials and current monitoring. This is not a home job. Anyone who disagrees, should see the photos before proceeding.

Alex

Gobfish1 · 28th December 2006, 12:01

Typhoon Heated Vest by: Typhoon International - DiveLife - DiveLife,

This award winning product keeps you warm even in extreme cold conditions. The system warms to 42c using a 12 volt battery and keeps the core body temperature warm. Its unique design guarantees that it is completely safe, even when totally immersed in water.

so this is all bullsh!t

AD_ward9 · 28th December 2006, 12:49

In specs, everything is always perfect. In realisation, thngs look good. In testing, things are revealed. Hence importance of proper testing.

When testing just such a heating element we found a surprising failure. Picture below, so you can see it is the material that failed, not some short with the heating braids inside the unit. The failure occured very early in the test regime: the heater had not been mistreated or damaged by earlier tests.

Alex

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

Typhoon Heated Vest by: Typhoon International - DiveLife - DiveLife,

This award winning product keeps you warm even in extreme cold conditions. The system warms to 42c using a 12 volt battery and keeps the core body temperature warm. Its unique design guarantees that it is completely safe, even when totally immersed in water.

so this is all bullsh!t

Silent · 28th December 2006, 12:52

Alex,

Would you care to elaborate on what caused this failure of the vest in your testing regime?

Neil

20th December 2006, 15:57	#21 (permalink)
viscya Wrecking Crew Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Marlton New Jersey Posts: 140	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? Has anyone tried these? Here is a letter documenting drysuit tests of the product. __________________ "There is nothing majestic or dignified about being left to silently rot and collapse under heaps of old fishing net forgotten and unappreciated in dark and unvisited waters." DrMike
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20th December 2006, 19:06	#22 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 729	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? Quote: (Originally Posted by viscya) Has anyone tried these? Here is a letter documenting drysuit tests of the product. Only on the surface and they work well for a short while. I'd try in such a fashion that you can remove it quickly. Under increased pressure the phase change may be quicker or slower (I think I didn't pay attention during the CO2 tripple point and phase change test i guess). Quicker is not a good idea..nor is spontenious activation under increased pressure as that would mean using up all the heat at the beginning of the dive and suffering cold (and who knows what else) at the end of the dive. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007 Last edited by Dutchy : 20th December 2006 at 19:08.
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20th December 2006, 19:27	#23 (permalink)
Faceless alone lurking in wrecks Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: France, Montpellier Posts: 92	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) 2. There are a number of companies making self stabilising heating materials, such as from EXO2 and some Russian sources. These use a carbon loaded material which increases in resistance dramatically with temperature. If you do this sort of thing, this is what you need. You need about 100W of heating to be worthwhile, otherwise buy an Aerogel undersuit: safer, cheaper and very cosy. Wow, Alex you continue to surprise us with invaluable info Where is this mysterious Aerogel undersuit can be seen on photos ? Hear some "ranting" about it about half a year ago, when i've ordered my Thinsulate 400 undersuit.How much does it cost ? So far All i've found about aerogel was this info: http://www.rubicon-foundation.org:80...123456789/3487 Sorry for asking stupid question, but I didn't found any more useful about it so far __________________ Peoples risk perception is almost always focused on the most dramatic rather than the most probable. (c) Gordon Smith Last edited by Faceless : 22nd December 2006 at 16:43. Reason: typos
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20th December 2006, 20:01	#24 (permalink)
Russ New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 88	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? I know a few people that use the patco pads which come in (25, 35 and 50 watts )some use 2 25 watt pads (front torso, back torso) and others use 1 50 watt, those with the 50 watt tend to get little blisters filled with just gas, they assume its helium which means I will go with the twin 25 watt. If you already have a canister to use the pads are pretty cheap. They also use the patco wetsuit heating pads instead of the dry suit ones with the idea being that even if your dry suit flooded the pads would still function. Russ
(Offline)

21st December 2006, 00:33	#25 (permalink)
Gene_Hobbs Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Durham, NC, USA Posts: 118	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless) Where is this mysterious <cut> Aerogel undersuit can be seen on photos? sorry for the cross post but here is the thread on this at DIRexplorers: Space-Age Undersuit - DIR Explorers Below are two files from Lew Nuckols. Lew has been a driving force behind the research of Aerogel for the US Navy. DUI has played a VERY big role in development of this product (as they do most of the military thermal protection projects). "Attached are two photos that you might post. One shows the appearance of the aerogel monolith that gets impregnated into the diving suit. The other shows a pre-production garment being dressed out on a thermal manikin to measure insulation values. We confirmed last month that the aerogel garment had 76% higher insulation than a commercial M400 Thinsulate garment. The Navy is currently diving these garments in extreme cold missions and the feedback is very positive." As for cost, they are a few thousand US now because they have to be made by hand in a clean room. It will get better once the final system is in place. (and no, there is no ETA for these) __________________ http://rubicon-foundation.org/ Home of the Rubicon Research Repository. For help getting started with the Repository, please visit our FAQ page. PLEASE support our work. "Oxygen is addictive and deadly. Everyone who uses it will eventually die" --RW Hamilton, PhD 1991
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21st December 2006, 10:46	#26 (permalink)
DrJM Deep Cave Explorer Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: May 2005 Location: France Posts: 344	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) I use the Typhoon heated jacket system, it works well with an hour or so duration for deco, however I have 2 battery packs for 2 hours.My buddy Phil is looking at adapting a MetalSub battery pack for longer duration, I know Jerome, DrJM has done something similar. After 3 years of freezing my ass on long deco I choose: 1) habitat at -12m by being on OC O2 you warm up the habitat +5 deg cel from the water temp( ex 13 deg water -> +/- 18 deg habitat) 2) if no habitat = Typhoon (very warm and homogene on the back and chest), fami was ok ish, homemade always trouble ... 3) Metalsub 12 A = 3 h with the Typhoon 4) for longeur deco = homemade 48 A guys from ekpp does the same they plug their homemade resistant teeshirt on battery size scooter body The worst thing is not always in the water ! actually in the Lot county in France the water is 13 deg cel, but outside is -6 deg just enough to freeze on the shore of the spring and if you leave the ccr overnight in an outside barn or van you'll have a frozen loop and canister in the morning Merry xmas Jerome __________________ www.snoopyloop.com Deep Cave Exploration
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28th December 2006, 12:01	#28 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 365	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? Typhoon Heated Vest by: Typhoon International - DiveLife - DiveLife, This award winning product keeps you warm even in extreme cold conditions. The system warms to 42c using a 12 volt battery and keeps the core body temperature warm. Its unique design guarantees that it is completely safe, even when totally immersed in water. so this is all bullsh!t __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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28th December 2006, 12:52	#30 (permalink)
Silent Staying Silent! Mostly... Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Northants, UK Posts: 383	Re: Heating systems - many deco risks? Alex, Would you care to elaborate on what caused this failure of the vest in your testing regime? Neil __________________ On the dark side everyone can hear you scream......
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