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| | #11 (permalink) |
| Rebreather World Writer ![]() Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens,Greece
Posts: 230
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale I discovered that I have a PFO during examinations for a life insurance. The doctors here in Greece advised me to close it but since they had limited experience with PFO closures I decided to have a second opinion. I then went to Switcherland to a hospital that has experience with PFO and diving. Their final advise was: The PFO was too small -do not to close it. Depth restriction: 100 meters (based on the fact that I had been down to 100 with out a problem)!! – not very scientific but logical… I never had any problem but I am being very careful not to strain my self during and after deco. Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting. |
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| | #12 (permalink) |
| Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Posts: 239
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale I discovered that I have a PFO during examinations for a life insurance. I would continue to search for more opinion. PFO's have been know to increase in size as people age. One reason why people dive with one for years and then suddenly in there late 30 / 40 or older get bent on a other wise benign dive profile and find they have a PFO. Hoping my partner will chip in on this thread as she had 3 bends and then found she had one, and has had it closed, returned to diving and so far all is good. She did a lot of sole searching and research before the operationThe doctors here in Greece advised me to close it but since they had limited experience with PFO closures I decided to have a second opinion. I then went to Switcherland to a hospital that has experience with PFO and diving. Their final advise was: The PFO was too small -do not to close it. Depth restriction: 100 meters (based on the fact that I had been down to 100 with out a problem)!! – not very scientific but logical… I never had any problem but I am being very careful not to strain my self during and after deco. Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting. Matt |
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| | #13 (permalink) |
| New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Portishead
Posts: 38
![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale How small is small? After 3 months I went for my bubble test. Was still getting bubbles across (1-2) but this is considered within safe limits and potentially improve over time. Originally my hole was considered small to medium but following the operation was definitely a medium sized hole. The theory that you have dived safely to 100 meters before and haven’t been bent is not very scientific and potentially dangerous. PFOs are known to increase your risk, but ask a Doctor by how much and they don’t know. So the fact you have dived to 100 meters previously might have been that you were on a lucky day (s). Do you want to push the envelope? One person who I know who was diagnosed with a spinal bend due to a PFO was an incredibly experienced diver, over 1,000 dives logged. Qualified instructor. Dive to 35 meters, I think. Nothing unusual, profile was fine / within limits. Back on the boat for a few minutes then “oomph” I’ve been kicked in the kidneys… It is fairly widely accepted that if you are diagnosed with a PFO you are limited to an Equivalent Air Depth of 15 meters. Final thought, a PFO bend can be incredibly serious both short term and long term. Apart from being willing to risk your own life, what about the implications for your friends and family around you who will have to pick up the pieces and support you? It is only a sport! |
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| | #14 (permalink) |
| in lurking Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: tidying the spare room
Posts: 25
![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale hi gtzavela! i think you've been very lucky so far... as paul said, it is not uncommon for divers to be diving for years, doing deep mixed gas dives etcetc and not suffer anything and then one day it hit them and they suffered a serious neuro bend which can leave you paralysed if not kill you.... Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting. interesting...a friend of ours ours suffered a neuro bend after climbing the ladder laden with inspo and stages ...she was later diagnosed with a pfo which she's had successfully closed since.
__________________ greekbird Out of my mind....back in five minutes |
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| | #15 (permalink) |
| New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Portishead
Posts: 38
![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale Strain is any strenuous activity. In my case, the Doctor advised me post dive not to do anything too strenuous. This included (but was not exhaustive) helping divers into a boat, getting my twin set (or others) into the boat, not pulling the shot line (or anchor line). |
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| | #16 (permalink) |
| New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dubai
Posts: 6
![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale Hi Sorry to hear about your bend and that you have been diagnosed with a PFO. I also was quite relieved to find out I had a PFO after suffering a series of bends because at least I could get it fixed without having to knock diving on the head. I have since had the operation and am back diving deep again without reoccurence of the numerous past DCI symptons. As for depth limits I was treated for a vestibula bend by DDRC - 7 days of treatement that did not completly clear up the dizziness, I just got bored. (After day 6 my greatest improvement was after a pub-crawl down the barbican, instead of being giddy I could walk straight). One of the doctors there was quite pragmatic and said I didn't need a depth limit after all I had been diving often enough to know when I had increased risk of getting a hit and if I received a bad one I could always return for more treatment. I did find that diving with air dilutent I was always fine only with Helium did I suffer symptons. My unqualified theory is the relative molecular size being a major effect. I succesfully tested this theory on air dives up to 65m on an unavoidable trip to the Solomons only 2 months after the bad hit. Good luck with your further testing and if you do decide to go for the closure op then I will be more than happy to share my experience. There is a good graphic deployment at the amplatzer website: http://www.amplatzer.com/us/products/asd.html Gerard. |
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| | #17 (permalink) |
| it's a girl due 20th May Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 198
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale I think if anyone is contemplating a PFO closure or wants to know some more about the technology and the current state of thought about such procedures should read the following four articles. They were published in September 2005 in the journal Heart. They can be downloaded from heart.bmjjournals.com When and how to diagnose patent foramen ovale by FJ Pinto The article outlines the lack standardisation of PFO diagnosis and the application of PFO diagnosis in medicine. The following is my summary of points I think important to divers
The majority of this article is related to cryptogenic strokes however it does address the association of PFO and DCS in divers. The important points from the article I thought were
Given the lack of definitive studies, this article outlines whether a PFO should be treated and how. It is a short article and certainly provides food for thought. It is a more cautionary attitude to PFO closure. The important points are:
Closure of patent foramen ovale: technique, pitfalls, complications, and follow up by B Meier1. Preceding ischaemic neurologic event with probable embolic aetiology2. Age under 60 years and absence of overt atherosclerotic disease (for example, history of myocardial infarction) or more than one atherosclerotic risk factor3. Exclusion of other cardiac (for example, atrial fibrillation, endocarditis, tumour) or vascular (carotid stenosis, spontaneous carotid or vertebral dissection, aortic atheromatosis) embolic sources4. PFO with more than minimal inducible or spontaneous right-to-left shunt, in particular in the presence of an atrial septal aneurysm5. Contraindications against or unwillingness to undergo anticoagulation This article summarises the devices, techniques used to close PFOs and the experiences of a single clinic that has performed over 500 closures. I think it’s an excellent article outlining the history of different devices, how they operate, what they look like, and the pros and cons of various ones in a clinical setting.
__________________ why deal with idiots on the net when you have to spend all day dealing with them at work. Last edited by bendomatic : 25th September 2006 at 22:06. Reason: removal of duplication, font change, typo |
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| | #18 (permalink) |
| Rebreather World Writer ![]() Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens,Greece
Posts: 230
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale Thans all for your feedback and info – specially bendOmatic for the latest papers. The “small” size was related to a size that is considerably less than 10mm (something like 2-4mm). The recommendation of not to close it was based on the fact that during Transoesophageal echocardiography (TOE) the doctor could NOT see any right-to-left shunting. I think the most important point is that PFO size could increase with age. I also think I should consider having an other test some time soon. And in the mean while conservative deco! Any advise regarding any center/hospital with high expertise on the field (and some good cave diving close by as well ) ?? |
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| | #20 (permalink) |
| Consent Issued! ![]() Current Rebreather/s: | Re: Patent Foramen Ovale Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting. I got my PFO related hit moving cylinders around on the boat. |
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