It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register for free click here
Rebreather World
       
Go Back Rebreather World Rebreather Diving Rebreather Training Dive Medicine

Patent Foramen Ovale



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 22nd September 2006, 07:30   #11 (permalink)
Rebreather World Writer
 
gtzavelas's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Megalodon
RB80 / Clone

Other Rebreather/s:
RB80 / Clone
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Athens,Greece
Posts: 230
gtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the rough
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

I discovered that I have a PFO during examinations for a life insurance.
The doctors here in Greece advised me to close it but since they had limited experience with PFO closures I decided to have a second opinion. I then went to Switcherland to a hospital that has experience with PFO and diving.
Their final advise was:
The PFO was too small -do not to close it.
Depth restriction: 100 meters (based on the fact that I had been down to 100 with out a problem)!! – not very scientific but logical…
I never had any problem but I am being very careful not to strain my self during and after deco.
Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 07:39   #12 (permalink)
MHD
Custom Title Allowed!
 
MHD's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Home Build

Other Rebreather/s:
Sport Kiss
Home Build
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Posts: 239
MHD is just really niceMHD is just really niceMHD is just really niceMHD is just really niceMHD is just really niceMHD is just really niceMHD is just really niceMHD is just really niceMHD is just really nice
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

Quote: (Originally Posted by gtzavelas) View Original Post
I discovered that I have a PFO during examinations for a life insurance.
The doctors here in Greece advised me to close it but since they had limited experience with PFO closures I decided to have a second opinion. I then went to Switcherland to a hospital that has experience with PFO and diving.
Their final advise was:
The PFO was too small -do not to close it.
Depth restriction: 100 meters (based on the fact that I had been down to 100 with out a problem)!! – not very scientific but logical…
I never had any problem but I am being very careful not to strain my self during and after deco.
Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting.
I would continue to search for more opinion. PFO's have been know to increase in size as people age. One reason why people dive with one for years and then suddenly in there late 30 / 40 or older get bent on a other wise benign dive profile and find they have a PFO. Hoping my partner will chip in on this thread as she had 3 bends and then found she had one, and has had it closed, returned to diving and so far all is good. She did a lot of sole searching and research before the operation

Matt
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 09:56   #13 (permalink)
New Member
 
quinnw's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Classic Kiss

Other Rebreather/s:
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portishead
Posts: 38
quinnw is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

How small is small? After 3 months I went for my bubble test. Was still getting bubbles across (1-2) but this is considered within safe limits and potentially improve over time.

Originally my hole was considered small to medium but following the operation was definitely a medium sized hole.

The theory that you have dived safely to 100 meters before and haven’t been bent is not very scientific and potentially dangerous. PFOs are known to increase your risk, but ask a Doctor by how much and they don’t know. So the fact you have dived to 100 meters previously might have been that you were on a lucky day (s). Do you want to push the envelope?

One person who I know who was diagnosed with a spinal bend due to a PFO was an incredibly experienced diver, over 1,000 dives logged. Qualified instructor. Dive to 35 meters, I think. Nothing unusual, profile was fine / within limits. Back on the boat for a few minutes then “oomph” I’ve been kicked in the kidneys…

It is fairly widely accepted that if you are diagnosed with a PFO you are limited to an Equivalent Air Depth of 15 meters.

Final thought, a PFO bend can be incredibly serious both short term and long term. Apart from being willing to risk your own life, what about the implications for your friends and family around you who will have to pick up the pieces and support you? It is only a sport!
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 12:48   #14 (permalink)
in lurking
 
greekbird's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Not Bought Yet

Other Rebreather/s:
Not Bought Yet
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: tidying the spare room
Posts: 25
greekbird will become famous soon enoughgreekbird will become famous soon enoughgreekbird will become famous soon enough
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

hi gtzavela! i think you've been very lucky so far... as paul said, it is not uncommon for divers to be diving for years, doing deep mixed gas dives etcetc and not suffer anything and then one day it hit them and they suffered a serious neuro bend which can leave you paralysed if not kill you....

Quote: (Originally Posted by gtzavelas) View Original Post
Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting.
interesting...a friend of ours ours suffered a neuro bend after climbing the ladder laden with inspo and stages ...she was later diagnosed with a pfo which she's had successfully closed since.
__________________
greekbird

Out of my mind....back in five minutes
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 14:55   #15 (permalink)
New Member
 
quinnw's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Classic Kiss

Other Rebreather/s:
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portishead
Posts: 38
quinnw is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

Strain is any strenuous activity.

In my case, the Doctor advised me post dive not to do anything too strenuous. This included (but was not exhaustive) helping divers into a boat, getting my twin set (or others) into the boat, not pulling the shot line (or anchor line).
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 24th September 2006, 12:32   #16 (permalink)
New Member
 
GPunch's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Inspiration Classic

Other Rebreather/s:
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6
GPunch is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

Hi
Sorry to hear about your bend and that you have been diagnosed with a PFO. I also was quite relieved to find out I had a PFO after suffering a series of bends because at least I could get it fixed without having to knock diving on the head. I have since had the operation and am back diving deep again without reoccurence of the numerous past DCI symptons.
As for depth limits I was treated for a vestibula bend by DDRC - 7 days of treatement that did not completly clear up the dizziness, I just got bored. (After day 6 my greatest improvement was after a pub-crawl down the barbican, instead of being giddy I could walk straight). One of the doctors there was quite pragmatic and said I didn't need a depth limit after all I had been diving often enough to know when I had increased risk of getting a hit and if I received a bad one I could always return for more treatment.
I did find that diving with air dilutent I was always fine only with Helium did I suffer symptons. My unqualified theory is the relative molecular size being a major effect. I succesfully tested this theory on air dives up to 65m on an unavoidable trip to the Solomons only 2 months after the bad hit.
Good luck with your further testing and if you do decide to go for the closure op then I will be more than happy to share my experience.
There is a good graphic deployment at the amplatzer website:
http://www.amplatzer.com/us/products/asd.html
Gerard.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2006, 08:13   #17 (permalink)
it's a girl due 20th May
 
bendomatic's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Sport Kiss

Other Rebreather/s:
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 198
bendomatic has a spectacular aura aboutbendomatic has a spectacular aura aboutbendomatic has a spectacular aura aboutbendomatic has a spectacular aura aboutbendomatic has a spectacular aura aboutbendomatic has a spectacular aura about
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

I think if anyone is contemplating a PFO closure or wants to know some more about the technology and the current state of thought about such procedures should read the following four articles. They were published in September 2005 in the journal Heart. They can be downloaded from heart.bmjjournals.com

When and how to diagnose patent foramen ovale by FJ Pinto

The article outlines the lack standardisation of PFO diagnosis and the application of PFO diagnosis in medicine. The following is my summary of points I think important to divers
  • The absolute risk of suffering DCI in the presence of PFO is very low 5:10, 000 vs 1:10, 000 (without PFO)
  • the risk of suffering a major DCI parallels PFO size.
  • Transoesophageal echocardiography (TOE) is considered the imaging procedure of choice – “gold standard”. However sedation can make the vasalva manoeuvre more difficult.
  • The identification and quantification ie.“sizing” of PFO is not standardised. These variables introduce error in diagnosis, and need to be addressed
    • Criteria for determination is different. therefore depending on the criteria of number of bubbles, different “size” of PFO can be determined.
    • Angle of visualisation. some angles are better than others
    • The anatomy of your heart and which vein that the contrast agent is administered can influence diagnosis due to differing blood flow patterns
    • for a given PFO, the amount of right-to-left contrast shunting is a matter of expiratory pressure during the Valsalva manoeuvre. So the harder you force it to open the more bubbles go through
    • that in any PFO right-to-left shunting varies considerably and that the magnitude of contrast shunting does not necessarily correlate with the true anatomical size of the PFO.
INDICATIONS FOR THE CLOSURE OF PATENT FORAMEN OVALE by Michael J Landzberg, Paul Khairy

The majority of this article is related to cryptogenic strokes however it does address the association of PFO and DCS in divers. The important points from the article I thought were
  • Assessing efficacy of percutaneous PFO closure for each device has been troublesome given the case series nature of existing studies, lack of randomised controlled trials, as well as a lack of defined and clinically meaningful end points for comparison. This is largely due to a lack of: (1) neurologist–cardiologist–primary physician teamwork and coordination of goal and effort; (2) modern precise definition of ischaemic neurologic outcome; (3) data to generate realistic hypotheses and sample size requirements; (4) referring physician and investigator motivation to enrol all candidate patients into randomised expert care; (5) industry based sponsorship of a sufficiently sized trial to adequately address power concerns; and (6) a ‘‘tipping point’’ mentality that CS + PFO is a true and highly morbid disease, requiring study and relief.
  • My commentary: You could substitute above with Diving specialist for neurologist in #1 and #2 could be substituted with standardisation of DCS diagnosis and outcome.
  • Proposed ‘‘high risk’’ PFO features include: atrial septal aneurysm, spontaneous right-to-left shunting, and ‘‘tunnellike’’ appearance.
  • previously symptomatic or high volume divers with ANEs (asymptomatic neurological event) or with ‘‘high risk’’ anatomic PFO features, who wish to continue diving may warrant closure in centres maintaining closure registries or participation in trials.
  • Intervention for low volume sports divers with PFO without ANEs or symptoms of DCS, regardless of anatomic concerns, remains unfounded at the present
Closure of patent foramen ovale: is the case really closed as well? By F A Flachskampf and W G Daniel

Given the lack of definitive studies, this article outlines whether a PFO should be treated and how. It is a short article and certainly provides food for thought. It is a more cautionary attitude to PFO closure.
The important points are:
  • PFO as the culprit is often just the least unlikely of a number of possibilities,
  • When considering treatment of an incriminated PFO, the risks of the treatment have to be weighed against the risk of recurrence, lest the cure is worse than the disease.
  • PFO closure entails a finite procedural and post-procedural risk. Ongoing learning curves and device refinement make it difficult to define these risks.
  • Major complications are in the order of 1%. [compare the risk of DCI event of 0.05%]
  • [Keeping in mind this is primarily aimed at non-divers.] Suggested criteria for eligibility for interventional PFO closure: 1–4 required
1. Preceding ischaemic neurologic event with probable embolic aetiology
2. Age under 60 years and absence of overt atherosclerotic disease (for example, history of myocardial infarction) or more than one atherosclerotic risk factor
3. Exclusion of other cardiac (for example, atrial fibrillation, endocarditis, tumour) or vascular (carotid stenosis, spontaneous carotid or vertebral dissection, aortic atheromatosis) embolic sources
4. PFO with more than minimal inducible or spontaneous right-to-left shunt, in particular in the presence of an atrial septal aneurysm
5. Contraindications against or unwillingness to undergo anticoagulation
Closure of patent foramen ovale: technique, pitfalls, complications, and follow up by B Meier

This article summarises the devices, techniques used to close PFOs and the experiences of a single clinic that has performed over 500 closures. I think it’s an excellent article outlining the history of different devices, how they operate, what they look like, and the pros and cons of various ones in a clinical setting.
  • The description of the implantation technique is accurate (from my memory of my procedure) J. I couldn’t summarise it properly here; if you want to know then you’ll have to read the article.
  • A description of atrial septal aneurysm (ASA):
    • The septum secundum positioned towards the aorta is usually a robust, wedge-like structure. The caudad septum primum may be paper thin and extremely mobile. An atrial septal aneurysm is usually diagnosed when the septum primum moves more than 10 mm into each atrium during certain phases of the cardiac cycle. Aneurysm is a misnomer as it merely describes the mobility of the non-muscular part of the septum primum. Nevertheless, the presence of a highly mobile septum primum has been identified as an important risk factor for paradoxical embolism.
  • Pitfalls
    • Most devices (with the exception of Amplatzer and Helex) have to be completely removed outside the body and usually a new one used if deployment fails the first time. Amplatzer and Helex by the nature of their designs can be easily recaptured and redeployed.
    • The Amplatzer and Helex devices are the only ones to conform to funnel shaped PFOs. The others are unable to do so because of the fixed length connector between the disks.
  • Complications
    • Embolisation
    • Other serious complications occurring in less than 1% of cases are infection, erosion into the pericardium or aorta at the rim of the device, a new ASD caused by the lower rim tearing the thin septum primum, or paroxysmal or persistent atrial fibrillation.
    • Thrombosis on the device has been found in about 6% of devices used for PFO closures at the one month transoesophageal echocardiographic control in 1000 patients, except for the Amplatzer PFO occluder where it was found in less than 1%. A recent study reported thrombosis on five of 23 CardioSEAL devices checked at one month but in none of 20 Amplatzer PFO occluders.
I feel happy with my decision to have a PFO closure in June 2005. I had an Amplatzer device inserted (it’s the only one available in Australia) and from the above article would appear to be the device of choice. I had experienced 3 DCI events in 700 dives including after an NDL dive. I had what was described as a tunnel-like PFO by the initial investigating cardiologist. It turned out that I had an ASA (see above for description). I haven’t had any problems with diving so far since the closure and have returned to decompression and now Rebreather diving. The biggest medical problem that I had was post-operatively having a hypersensitivity reaction to vancomycin. But my personal experience is another story so I’ll just leave this long article to what’s already done.



Attached Images
File Type: pdf PFO diagnosis.pdf (251.8 KB, 32 views)
File Type: pdf PFO closure indications.pdf (299.2 KB, 26 views)
File Type: pdf PFO closure is it necessary.pdf (59.5 KB, 21 views)
File Type: pdf PFO closure technique.pdf (260.2 KB, 27 views)
__________________
why deal with idiots on the net when you have to spend all day dealing with them at work.

Last edited by bendomatic : 25th September 2006 at 22:06. Reason: removal of duplication, font change, typo
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2006, 17:52   #18 (permalink)
Rebreather World Writer
 
gtzavelas's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Megalodon
RB80 / Clone

Other Rebreather/s:
RB80 / Clone
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Athens,Greece
Posts: 230
gtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the roughgtzavelas is a jewel in the rough
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

Thans all for your feedback and info – specially bendOmatic for the latest papers.

The “small” size was related to a size that is considerably less than 10mm (something like 2-4mm). The recommendation of not to close it was based on the fact that during Transoesophageal echocardiography (TOE) the doctor could NOT see any right-to-left shunting.

I think the most important point is that PFO size could increase with age.

I also think I should consider having an other test some time soon. And in the mean while conservative deco!

Any advise regarding any center/hospital with high expertise on the field (and some good cave diving close by as well ) ??
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2006, 02:37   #19 (permalink)
Moderator



 
ScubaDadMiami's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Optima

Other Rebreather/s:
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 1,939
ScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to beholdScubaDadMiami is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via Yahoo to ScubaDadMiami
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

Yes, thanks for some great references.
__________________
Howard Packer
IANTD CCR Instructor
Miami Beach, Florida
CCRDiveTraining.com
(Online)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2006, 09:36   #20 (permalink)
Consent Issued!
 
PeteS's Avatar

Current Rebreather/s:
Inspiration Classic
Inspiration Vision

Other Rebreather/s:
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 511
PeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of lightPeteS is a glorious beacon of light
Send a message via Skype™ to PeteS
Re: Patent Foramen Ovale

Quote: (Originally Posted by gtzavelas) View Original Post
Note: Strain does NOT include to my understanding carrying gear or climbing stairs or hills. It means coughing, strain on the loo, lifting.
I got my PFO related hit moving cylinders around on the boat.
__________________
Pete S.

http://www.steggle.co.nz

Every silver lining has a cloud
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



RebreatherWorld.Com ©2005 - 2008 Scuba Flair Limited
Rebreather World, Rebreather World and the Rebreather World Logo are Trademarks
All rights reserved, no republishing of content without written permission.
By using this website you have agreed to our Terms & Conditions of Use

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0