Heart Attacks

***schford*** · 6th April 2005, 10:58

I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such.

I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself.

Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks.

I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile?

stuart

Nad · 6th April 2005, 11:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such.

I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself.

Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks.

I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile?

stuart

Well, Stuart I think you're right about RBs related Heart attacks: it happen usually when you pay the units...

Ok, back serious, I don't really know and never heard about the possibility still it would be interesting to know what the medicine say about this problem; you know one it's fatality, two...not exactly!
I hope to not hear something bad the day after I buy my rig.
Best,
Nad

ROB DAVIE · 6th April 2005, 14:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such.

I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself.

Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks.

I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile?

stuart

Stuart, et al,

It's funny how things seem to pop up at the same time as if there were a "Karmic control button". I have been discussing this with Doc I.G. Saturation on another Board for a few days now.

When I first started diving Rebreather's, there was a lot of talk, some of it driven by GI3's ravings, about a "conspiratzia" of re-breather manufacturers to conceal all RB accidental deaths by calling them either "operator error" or "heart attacks"!

This is lunacy, of course, probably brought about by over-exposure to steroids in Trey's case. I know some of the manufacturers personally. While it is true that they are all more than a little strange (nice people, but still strange--as are we all in this field of endeavour), I find it hard to bring myself to believe that they are all involved in a murderous plot!

Then when I finally got my hands on lists of the accident reports, I started to get worried. It "did" look a little strange. I began to be a little worried because, of course, just because you're paranoid does not mean that they are NOT out to get you!

Finally, after reading enough of the reports, some of the un-spoken details started to resolve.

The majority were, plain and simple, operator error. Under this heading comes complacency, which we were just discussing in another thread. Some of it boils down to just plain "cockiness" in a few cases.

As for the heart attacks, think for a moment about the general population of Rebreather pilots. The damned things are SO expensive, that generally we are a more mature group, when compared to the diving population as a whole, by the time we are in a position financially to purchase them.

Many of us have jobs that require using our brains a lot, while mostly remaining firmly planted on our gluteus maximi. We then roar off on a weekend to do dives that are normally far deeper, far more difficult, and far more stressful than the average cat putzing about in the shallows at Paradise Reef.

I think we can all see how this works out, but it's hard to get a firm grasp of this from close-up, so to speak. God help me, I never thought I'd have to give the Devil his due, but the Amish Diving Society folks ARE right in one respect. We need to pay attention to our health as a whole, and force ourselves to get some real exercise on a regular basis, instead of all those "Queen's-measure arm-curls"!

(And...Moi aussie here...

)!

Cheers!

Rob Davie

dive2dive2000 · 6th April 2005, 15:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such.

I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself.

Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks.

I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile?

stuart

Stuart

I think Rob hit it on the head, Most Rebreather divers are over the age of 35, here is a really good web site. http://scuba-doc.com/
Martin
BTW will be 40 in may and just went for stress test, Eco, blood work...

not to worry I'll be around for a while. These smilies are great can't get enough of them!

Crazyduck · 6th April 2005, 15:17

Rob,

I totally agree with everything that you have said.

When I was an active NAUI IT we swam (Laps) regularly once to twice a week and we tested ourselves about every couple of months. While it was drudgery at first; I came to find that time incredibly useful for resolving problems and made teaching far easier in the long run.

Since I have stopped teaching I have taken up- Underwater Hockey! I would recommend it to any diver out there. It is a non-contact sport! Chasing a puck with a small stick and holding your breath goes a long way to working out. I play once a week and I sleep like a baby that night. The great thing is that the water works as direct resistance and yet it has minimal impact on your joints.

Regards, Andrew

**trob09** · 6th April 2005, 15:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Stuart

I think Rob hit it on the head, Most Rebreather divers are over the age of 35, here is a really good web site. http://scuba-doc.com/
Martin
BTW will be 40 in may and just went for stress test, Eco, blood work...

not to worry I'll be around for a while. These smilies are great can't get enough of them!

Martin, I'm hitting the big 40 in June, I'm treating my Meg as an expensive, mid-life crisis present to myself...

Iwent through all of the fun tests as well including some interesting probing with the use of KY and a rubber glove (and I thought KY was for dry suits...). Other than a serious PFO scare (that thankfully turned out to be false) the docs all said 'you're healthy'. Of course that won't stop me from getting hit by a bus...

ROB DAVIE · 6th April 2005, 15:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

I went through all of the fun tests as well including some interesting probing with the use of KY and a rubber glove (and I thought KY was for dry suits...). Other than a serious PFO scare (that thankfully turned out to be false) the docs all said 'you're healthy'. Of course that won't stop me from getting hit by a bus...

Trob,

Is that where the Doc bends you over, puts both hands on your shoulders, and says this will only hurt a little bit????

Seriously, glad to hear that the PFO thing turned out to be a non-issue!

Rob

dive2dive2000 · 6th April 2005, 15:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE)

Trob,

Is that where the Doc bends you over, puts both hands on your shoulders, and says this will only hurt a little bit????

Seriously, glad to hear that the PFO thing turned out to be a non-issure!

Rob

Only in Texas Stears and ... sorry could not resist.

Martin

**trob09** · 6th April 2005, 15:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE)

Trob,

Is that where the Doc bends you over, puts both hands on your shoulders, and says this will only hurt a little bit????

Seriously, glad to hear that the PFO thing turned out to be a non-issure!

Rob

Yeah. He kept saying 'relax'. Finally I said I'll relax as soon as you get that probe out of my ass. At which point the nurse started to laugh...

**nigelh** · 6th April 2005, 15:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE)

As for the heart attacks, think for a moment about the general population of Rebreather pilots. The damned things are SO expensive, that generally we are a more mature group, when compared to the diving population as a whole, by the time we are in a position financially to purchase them.

To put it in context I had a heart attack at 5 in the morning in bed. A medically trained wife recognised it so when the second one came (they seem to hunt in pairs) I was in hospital and was jumped on by the nursing staff.

I was 51 and was just due to take my Mod 1 in a week or so and it had to be cancelled until I got my UKSDM back.

I never smoked, I was 11 stone 11 on 5 foot 10 but work in IT in front of a screen. I didn't know it was a heart attack because that was the first time I'd felt the strange pain. If I had had the first one and shrugged it off as cramp and then gone diving I could well have been another statistic. If it had waited a few months the diving would have been on a rebreather.

6th April 2005, 10:58	#1 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,671	Heart Attacks I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such. I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself. Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks. I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile? stuart
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 11:30	#2 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 960	Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such. I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself. Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks. I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile? stuart Well, Stuart I think you're right about RBs related Heart attacks: it happen usually when you pay the units... Ok, back serious, I don't really know and never heard about the possibility still it would be interesting to know what the medicine say about this problem; you know one it's fatality, two...not exactly! I hope to not hear something bad the day after I buy my rig. Best, Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 14:51	#3 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Heart attacks and Rebreather's Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such. I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself. Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks. I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile? stuart Stuart, et al, It's funny how things seem to pop up at the same time as if there were a "Karmic control button". I have been discussing this with Doc I.G. Saturation on another Board for a few days now. When I first started diving Rebreather's, there was a lot of talk, some of it driven by GI3's ravings, about a "conspiratzia" of re-breather manufacturers to conceal all RB accidental deaths by calling them either "operator error" or "heart attacks"! This is lunacy, of course, probably brought about by over-exposure to steroids in Trey's case. I know some of the manufacturers personally. While it is true that they are all more than a little strange (nice people, but still strange--as are we all in this field of endeavour), I find it hard to bring myself to believe that they are all involved in a murderous plot! Then when I finally got my hands on lists of the accident reports, I started to get worried. It "did" look a little strange. I began to be a little worried because, of course, just because you're paranoid does not mean that they are NOT out to get you! Finally, after reading enough of the reports, some of the un-spoken details started to resolve. The majority were, plain and simple, operator error. Under this heading comes complacency, which we were just discussing in another thread. Some of it boils down to just plain "cockiness" in a few cases. As for the heart attacks, think for a moment about the general population of Rebreather pilots. The damned things are SO expensive, that generally we are a more mature group, when compared to the diving population as a whole, by the time we are in a position financially to purchase them. Many of us have jobs that require using our brains a lot, while mostly remaining firmly planted on our gluteus maximi. We then roar off on a weekend to do dives that are normally far deeper, far more difficult, and far more stressful than the average cat putzing about in the shallows at Paradise Reef. I think we can all see how this works out, but it's hard to get a firm grasp of this from close-up, so to speak. God help me, I never thought I'd have to give the Devil his due, but the Amish Diving Society folks ARE right in one respect. We need to pay attention to our health as a whole, and force ourselves to get some real exercise on a regular basis, instead of all those "Queen's-measure arm-curls"! (And...Moi aussie here... )! Cheers! Rob Davie __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 15:10	#4 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I hope this query is not taken in poor taste - it is not intented as such. I was just browsing the net, looking at the details of previous fatalities on Rebreathers to hopefully identify common problems to make sure that I avoid them myself. Most of the examples I saw were user error, not switching unit on etc etc but there appeared to be several that were caused by heart attacks. I wondered if any one knew if anything about RBs caused an increased likelyhood of a heart attack (I had assumed high O2 was much better for you!) or more likely is it just stastics working, with heart attacks on RBs just being much higher profile? stuart Stuart I think Rob hit it on the head, Most Rebreather divers are over the age of 35, here is a really good web site. http://scuba-doc.com/ Martin BTW will be 40 in may and just went for stress test, Eco, blood work... not to worry I'll be around for a while. These smilies are great can't get enough of them!
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 15:17	#5 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 705	Underwater Hockey Rob, I totally agree with everything that you have said. When I was an active NAUI IT we swam (Laps) regularly once to twice a week and we tested ourselves about every couple of months. While it was drudgery at first; I came to find that time incredibly useful for resolving problems and made teaching far easier in the long run. Since I have stopped teaching I have taken up- Underwater Hockey! I would recommend it to any diver out there. It is a non-contact sport! Chasing a puck with a small stick and holding your breath goes a long way to working out. I play once a week and I sleep like a baby that night. The great thing is that the water works as direct resistance and yet it has minimal impact on your joints. Regards, Andrew
(Online)

6th April 2005, 15:19	#6 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 696	Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Stuart I think Rob hit it on the head, Most Rebreather divers are over the age of 35, here is a really good web site. http://scuba-doc.com/ Martin BTW will be 40 in may and just went for stress test, Eco, blood work... not to worry I'll be around for a while. These smilies are great can't get enough of them! Martin, I'm hitting the big 40 in June, I'm treating my Meg as an expensive, mid-life crisis present to myself... Iwent through all of the fun tests as well including some interesting probing with the use of KY and a rubber glove (and I thought KY was for dry suits...). Other than a serious PFO scare (that thankfully turned out to be false) the docs all said 'you're healthy'. Of course that won't stop me from getting hit by a bus...
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 15:23	#7 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Medical Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) I went through all of the fun tests as well including some interesting probing with the use of KY and a rubber glove (and I thought KY was for dry suits...). Other than a serious PFO scare (that thankfully turned out to be false) the docs all said 'you're healthy'. Of course that won't stop me from getting hit by a bus... Trob, Is that where the Doc bends you over, puts both hands on your shoulders, and says this will only hurt a little bit???? Seriously, glad to hear that the PFO thing turned out to be a non-issue! Rob __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 15:28	#8 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE) Trob, Is that where the Doc bends you over, puts both hands on your shoulders, and says this will only hurt a little bit???? Seriously, glad to hear that the PFO thing turned out to be a non-issure! Rob Only in Texas Stears and ... sorry could not resist. Martin
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 15:31	#9 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 696	Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE) Trob, Is that where the Doc bends you over, puts both hands on your shoulders, and says this will only hurt a little bit???? Seriously, glad to hear that the PFO thing turned out to be a non-issure! Rob Yeah. He kept saying 'relax'. Finally I said I'll relax as soon as you get that probe out of my ass. At which point the nurse started to laugh...
(Offline)

6th April 2005, 15:37	#10 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 821	Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE) As for the heart attacks, think for a moment about the general population of Rebreather pilots. The damned things are SO expensive, that generally we are a more mature group, when compared to the diving population as a whole, by the time we are in a position financially to purchase them. To put it in context I had a heart attack at 5 in the morning in bed. A medically trained wife recognised it so when the second one came (they seem to hunt in pairs) I was in hospital and was jumped on by the nursing staff. I was 51 and was just due to take my Mod 1 in a week or so and it had to be cancelled until I got my UKSDM back. I never smoked, I was 11 stone 11 on 5 foot 10 but work in IT in front of a screen. I didn't know it was a heart attack because that was the first time I'd felt the strange pain. If I had had the first one and shrugged it off as cramp and then gone diving I could well have been another statistic. If it had waited a few months the diving would have been on a rebreather. __________________ nigelh
(Online)

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