Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC

Def · 10th January 2006, 00:43

Sutty,

Good point, from my logs / print outs I can honestly say no, my easy dives are taken as serious as a deep one.. deco time be it 5 @ 5 is usually increased due to me filming students (not mine) or schools of fish at that depth, or just relaxing in the 3d enviroment...

Yes the next test that they will be doing (grr.. I hate needles) are teh CO2 bubble test....

Did I mention I hate needles ?

Cameron!

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty)

I believe some of the more definitive tests involve injecting you with some bubbles (I think they use CO2), and seeing if they go from right heart to left heart with various manoevres. I forget the details though.

You mention that the hits were on "easy dives", is there a possibility that when you are on no-deco dives your ascents are a bit quick, whereas having to do stops obviously slows you, and you are getting bent on the no-stop ones?

**JPJones** · 10th January 2006, 00:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Def)

Gday,

In 2001, I had a minor Joint 'unexplained' bend in my right arm, that was looked at and treated in POW Sydney, I was upto about dive 500 at the time.

Now in 2005 I had a second 'unexplained' bend in my left arm, this time it was not a joint but a muscel pain, I was treated on a Island in the arse end of the world for it by only 100% O2 for 1001 reasons I was not able or to get to a chamber.

Thanks for your time and advice ..

Cameron.

Welcome to Rebreather World.

I don't think you are prone to DCS from what you have said. Actually at my age those type of pains are normal and I could get those hits every day and not know it.

If you don't change the way you dive, which you will. ECCR will still not stop you from getting bent it will only give you a lot more ways to kill yourself. Normal OC openwater diving is still much safer than eCCR. If you keep your skills sharp I fell that eCCR is much safer for Cave and deep trimix diving.

If you teach a lot of openwater classes you might not be allowed to use a eCCR to teach with.

Now with all the negitive things I have said I would never go back to OC again. I think that CCR is a much better way to dive for the serious diver, but not always safer.

As for what Heather said about the DCS being a sport injury I agree. Amoung us cave divers it's something you know will happen to you sometime and hope it doesn't end you diving forever. I have had two minor hits and knew what I did wrong both times.

hchoat · 10th January 2006, 00:58

Nausea and loss of strength indicate soemthing much more severe than a pain only hit. Good luck with the echo.

Dave H · 10th January 2006, 01:22

Interesting topic.

I PURELY bought a rebreather to reduce the possibility of another episode of DCS. I unfortunately had 2 minor bends in 2004 on air within a 6 month period and hence bought a Sports Kiss to dive on higher 02 concentrations.

If anyone is interested I wrote an article on my DCS issues here:
http://www.daveharasti.com/articles/copingwithbends.htm

I now have over 100 dives on the Sports Kiss with no reoccurence of my shoulder/arm bend... I dive my SK generally on 1.3 and follow air tables which increases my safety margin.

It is a wierd situation that has no explanations so I've learnt to live with it by diving on a CCR.

Def · 10th January 2006, 02:28

I do not consider myself a dangerous diver, or really push the limits, it comes down to the shear number of dives I do... is 1 in a 1000 an average, seeing most divers do not get close to this in there life time, should I feel 2 in 2000 just a bad average ?

I understand Rebreather's are just the reeper trying to get you, and I am happy to spend the time to learn to control, harness and dive with the reeper.... but its trying to kill me in different ways...

I have dived with sharks, muppet divers, strong currents and cold water and I see them all as risks I look at before strapping on my tanks and jumping in..... I see a CCR just another one... but at least its one I can directly control ... not like these bubbles.

Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones)

Welcome to Rebreather World.

I don't think you are prone to DCS from what you have said. Actually at my age those type of pains are normal and I could get those hits every day and not know it.

If you don't change the way you dive, which you will. ECCR will still not stop you from getting bent it will only give you a lot more ways to kill yourself. Normal OC openwater diving is still much safer than eCCR. If you keep your skills sharp I fell that eCCR is much safer for Cave and deep trimix diving.

If you teach a lot of openwater classes you might not be allowed to use a eCCR to teach with.

Now with all the negitive things I have said I would never go back to OC again. I think that CCR is a much better way to dive for the serious diver, but not always safer.

As for what Heather said about the DCS being a sport injury I agree. Amoung us cave divers it's something you know will happen to you sometime and hope it doesn't end you diving forever. I have had two minor hits and knew what I did wrong both times.

Def · 10th January 2006, 02:29

David,

Your incident is one of the main reasons I am looking down this path ...

All I want is the higher % of o2.

Cameron

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave H)

Interesting topic.

I PURELY bought a rebreather to reduce the possibility of another episode of DCS. I unfortunately had 2 minor bends in 2004 on air within a 6 month period and hence bought a Sports Kiss to dive on higher 02 concentrations.

If anyone is interested I wrote an article on my DCS issues here:
http://www.daveharasti.com/articles/copingwithbends.htm

I now have over 100 dives on the Sports Kiss with no reoccurence of my shoulder/arm bend... I dive my SK generally on 1.3 and follow air tables which increases my safety margin.

It is a wierd situation that has no explanations so I've learnt to live with it by diving on a CCR.

Def · 10th January 2006, 02:31

B1 had the lost of strengh, I guess this is due to the bubbles in the joints restricting blood ??

B2 had the Nausa, which could have been 2.5 hrs sitting on deco in not so smooth water ....

We know so little so I am just trying to give as much away as possible!

Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat)

Nausea and loss of strength indicate soemthing much more severe than a pain only hit. Good luck with the echo.

Karlos · 10th January 2006, 02:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Def)

I understand Rebreather's are just the reeper trying to get you, and I am happy to spend the time to learn to control, harness and dive with the reeper.... but its trying to kill me in different ways...

Cameron

Dr Mike Bennet at the POW in Sydney once told me after I had bent the snot out of myself - "It is not if, but when you will bend yourself..."

Rebreather's are no less a reeper than your OC gear IMHO - but I think you are also wrong when you think RB divers are less prone to get bent than others. Inherently you will treat the RB as just another tool and your diving will change because of what you can do much more on the "Reeper Tool". Again only my 2c

Def · 10th January 2006, 02:50

Dr Mike Bennet Also treated me ...

And alas, I got told the same ..... I am just trying to find something that may help the whens being further apart!

Quote: (Originally Posted by Karlos)

Cameron

Dr Mike Bennet at the POW in Sydney once told me after I had bent the snot out of myself - "It is not if, but when you will bend yourself..."

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 10th January 2006, 03:16

Getting bent is the reason to have insurance to cover such an event. Other than being so far offshore that you can't reach a chamber, delay is pretty stupid.

Once, when I thought I was bent as I was driving a few hours after a dive, I pulled off to the side of the road (in the days before cell phones), called DAN, got someone to drive me home to get my computer and oxygen, and I was at the chamber, on oxygen, within 45 minutes of the first symptom I felt.

Three chamber sessions, physical therapy and an MRI later, it was discovered that I had a problem with bulging disks in my neck. This was what caused the numbness I was feeling in my arms, not DCS.

The point is: I don't understand why so many people wait and deny until they risk real permanent, serious injury. Pay for insurance (if available), enjoy your diving and free your mind. If you even think you might have a DCI issue, treat it promptly. That's what the insurance is for.

10th January 2006, 00:43	#21 (permalink)
Def New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 83	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC Sutty, Good point, from my logs / print outs I can honestly say no, my easy dives are taken as serious as a deep one.. deco time be it 5 @ 5 is usually increased due to me filming students (not mine) or schools of fish at that depth, or just relaxing in the 3d enviroment... Yes the next test that they will be doing (grr.. I hate needles) are teh CO2 bubble test.... Did I mention I hate needles ? Cameron! Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty) I believe some of the more definitive tests involve injecting you with some bubbles (I think they use CO2), and seeing if they go from right heart to left heart with various manoevres. I forget the details though. You mention that the hits were on "easy dives", is there a possibility that when you are on no-deco dives your ascents are a bit quick, whereas having to do stops obviously slows you, and you are getting bent on the no-stop ones?
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 00:57	#22 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC Quote: (Originally Posted by Def) Gday, In 2001, I had a minor Joint 'unexplained' bend in my right arm, that was looked at and treated in POW Sydney, I was upto about dive 500 at the time. Now in 2005 I had a second 'unexplained' bend in my left arm, this time it was not a joint but a muscel pain, I was treated on a Island in the arse end of the world for it by only 100% O2 for 1001 reasons I was not able or to get to a chamber. Thanks for your time and advice .. Cameron. Welcome to Rebreather World. I don't think you are prone to DCS from what you have said. Actually at my age those type of pains are normal and I could get those hits every day and not know it. If you don't change the way you dive, which you will. ECCR will still not stop you from getting bent it will only give you a lot more ways to kill yourself. Normal OC openwater diving is still much safer than eCCR. If you keep your skills sharp I fell that eCCR is much safer for Cave and deep trimix diving. If you teach a lot of openwater classes you might not be allowed to use a eCCR to teach with. Now with all the negitive things I have said I would never go back to OC again. I think that CCR is a much better way to dive for the serious diver, but not always safer. As for what Heather said about the DCS being a sport injury I agree. Amoung us cave divers it's something you know will happen to you sometime and hope it doesn't end you diving forever. I have had two minor hits and knew what I did wrong both times. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 00:58	#23 (permalink)
hchoat Resident Selkie Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL- USA Posts: 227	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC Nausea and loss of strength indicate soemthing much more severe than a pain only hit. Good luck with the echo. __________________ Duct tape is like the force... it has a light side and dark side, and it holds the universe together.
(Online)

10th January 2006, 01:22	#24 (permalink)
Dave H New Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Nelson Bay - Oz Posts: 5	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC Interesting topic. I PURELY bought a rebreather to reduce the possibility of another episode of DCS. I unfortunately had 2 minor bends in 2004 on air within a 6 month period and hence bought a Sports Kiss to dive on higher 02 concentrations. If anyone is interested I wrote an article on my DCS issues here: http://www.daveharasti.com/articles/copingwithbends.htm I now have over 100 dives on the Sports Kiss with no reoccurence of my shoulder/arm bend... I dive my SK generally on 1.3 and follow air tables which increases my safety margin. It is a wierd situation that has no explanations so I've learnt to live with it by diving on a CCR. Last edited by Dave H : 10th January 2006 at 01:27.
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 02:28	#25 (permalink)
Def New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 83	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC I do not consider myself a dangerous diver, or really push the limits, it comes down to the shear number of dives I do... is 1 in a 1000 an average, seeing most divers do not get close to this in there life time, should I feel 2 in 2000 just a bad average ? I understand Rebreather's are just the reeper trying to get you, and I am happy to spend the time to learn to control, harness and dive with the reeper.... but its trying to kill me in different ways... I have dived with sharks, muppet divers, strong currents and cold water and I see them all as risks I look at before strapping on my tanks and jumping in..... I see a CCR just another one... but at least its one I can directly control ... not like these bubbles. Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones) Welcome to Rebreather World. I don't think you are prone to DCS from what you have said. Actually at my age those type of pains are normal and I could get those hits every day and not know it. If you don't change the way you dive, which you will. ECCR will still not stop you from getting bent it will only give you a lot more ways to kill yourself. Normal OC openwater diving is still much safer than eCCR. If you keep your skills sharp I fell that eCCR is much safer for Cave and deep trimix diving. If you teach a lot of openwater classes you might not be allowed to use a eCCR to teach with. Now with all the negitive things I have said I would never go back to OC again. I think that CCR is a much better way to dive for the serious diver, but not always safer. As for what Heather said about the DCS being a sport injury I agree. Amoung us cave divers it's something you know will happen to you sometime and hope it doesn't end you diving forever. I have had two minor hits and knew what I did wrong both times.
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 02:29	#26 (permalink)
Def New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 83	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC David, Your incident is one of the main reasons I am looking down this path ... All I want is the higher % of o2. Cameron Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave H) Interesting topic. I PURELY bought a rebreather to reduce the possibility of another episode of DCS. I unfortunately had 2 minor bends in 2004 on air within a 6 month period and hence bought a Sports Kiss to dive on higher 02 concentrations. If anyone is interested I wrote an article on my DCS issues here: http://www.daveharasti.com/articles/copingwithbends.htm I now have over 100 dives on the Sports Kiss with no reoccurence of my shoulder/arm bend... I dive my SK generally on 1.3 and follow air tables which increases my safety margin. It is a wierd situation that has no explanations so I've learnt to live with it by diving on a CCR.
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 02:31	#27 (permalink)
Def New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 83	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC B1 had the lost of strengh, I guess this is due to the bubbles in the joints restricting blood ?? B2 had the Nausa, which could have been 2.5 hrs sitting on deco in not so smooth water .... We know so little so I am just trying to give as much away as possible! Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat) Nausea and loss of strength indicate soemthing much more severe than a pain only hit. Good luck with the echo.
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 02:38	#28 (permalink)
Karlos New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 55	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC Quote: (Originally Posted by Def) I understand Rebreather's are just the reeper trying to get you, and I am happy to spend the time to learn to control, harness and dive with the reeper.... but its trying to kill me in different ways... Cameron Dr Mike Bennet at the POW in Sydney once told me after I had bent the snot out of myself - "It is not if, but when you will bend yourself..." Rebreather's are no less a reeper than your OC gear IMHO - but I think you are also wrong when you think RB divers are less prone to get bent than others. Inherently you will treat the RB as just another tool and your diving will change because of what you can do much more on the "Reeper Tool". Again only my 2c
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 02:50	#29 (permalink)
Def New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 83	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC Dr Mike Bennet Also treated me ... And alas, I got told the same ..... I am just trying to find something that may help the whens being further apart! Quote: (Originally Posted by Karlos) Cameron Dr Mike Bennet at the POW in Sydney once told me after I had bent the snot out of myself - "It is not if, but when you will bend yourself..."
(Offline)

10th January 2006, 03:16	#30 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,076	Re: Are Rebreathers Safer for DCI prone divers than OC Getting bent is the reason to have insurance to cover such an event. Other than being so far offshore that you can't reach a chamber, delay is pretty stupid. Once, when I thought I was bent as I was driving a few hours after a dive, I pulled off to the side of the road (in the days before cell phones), called DAN, got someone to drive me home to get my computer and oxygen, and I was at the chamber, on oxygen, within 45 minutes of the first symptom I felt. Three chamber sessions, physical therapy and an MRI later, it was discovered that I had a problem with bulging disks in my neck. This was what caused the numbness I was feeling in my arms, not DCS. The point is: I don't understand why so many people wait and deny until they risk real permanent, serious injury. Pay for insurance (if available), enjoy your diving and free your mind. If you even think you might have a DCI issue, treat it promptly. That's what the insurance is for. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Online)

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