Dirty loop and lung infection?

York · 25th May 2007, 12:57

>The results: gram negative bacteria found :
>-Escherichia Coli

You do know that you are supposed to put the mouthpiece only into your mouth

Just kidding! But still curious how E.Coli got there.

I tried looking into this a while ago (I am working on becoming a microbiologist), and this is what I concluded - in simple terms, no claim of completeness or accuracy:

the microbes you will find inside the loop either come from yourself, or the environment. One might argue that therefore it might be harmless, but unfortunately most microbes are opportunistic and change their behaviour depending on environment. A rather benign bug can turn nasty really quick.

Given half a chance, most microbes try to organise themselves as a biofilm - think of it as a fortress. Most "Nasties" are anerobic bacteria, and they find ideal conditions on the bottom of the biofilm - although you may run your loop at 1.3 or higher, it's completely anaerobic inside the biofilm, the anaerobes like it and thrive. Therefore, leaving your loop wet and sit for a day or two is really a bad idea. Most disinfectant will not penetrate the biofilm, and, once formed, it becomes almost impossible to remove the infection source.

Most microbes require moisture/water to survive, so drying is probably the most effective method of removing bacteria. Drying also breaks down the biofilm and allows oxygen to penetrate the deeper areas of the film, killing the anaerobic bacteria present. Unfortunately, most bacteria form persister cells, inactive cells that hang out in the adverse invironment until conditions "improve", to start a new colony. I did some tests, and against what my first rebreather instructor (claim of fame: microbiologist) tried to make me believe I found that some oral bacteria can survive the conditions found inside the scrubber (pH 12).

Additionally, there are enough nutrients in the saliva (proteins, food residue, rbcs, sugars) to feed colonies of bacteria. Waiting for them to starve could take a while, especially once they formed a biofilm.

I tried a literature research about comperative tests of disinfecting agents for rebreathers, and found none. I know of the DRDC report, but that's "literature only".

So, here's what I hope works:

1) rinse with fresh water asap, slush water around to knock loose particles
2) if possible, soak in disinfectant. Pretty much dfm which one, as none will cover everything, and any might be better than none - although not conclusive on that one, because:
3) hang up in dry-ventilated area (AC in humd areas), allow to dry as much as possible.
4) shake out and quickly rinse with fresh water just before rigging up to remove residues

In terms of importance, I would think 1) and 3) are the main runners, possibly followed by 4)

I get the impression that, overall, things are not as bad as they may seem. It is also entirely possible that, while diving, we infect ourselves and treat ourselves at the same time with HBO - but I woun't volunteer to run a SP of 0.21 and see if it makes me sick.

?

Joerg

cedricverdier · 26th May 2007, 07:08

Nice post Joerg! Very informative.

What's your opinion about cleaning the breathing hoses with a long bottle brush? Does it break the biofilm?

Cheers

Outlaw · 25th August 2007, 10:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by York)

>The results: gram negative bacteria found :
>-Escherichia Coli

You do know that you are supposed to put the mouthpiece only into your mouth

Just kidding! But still curious how E.Coli got there.

I tried looking into this a while ago (I am working on becoming a microbiologist), and this is what I concluded - in simple terms, no claim of completeness or accuracy:

the microbes you will find inside the loop either come from yourself, or the environment. One might argue that therefore it might be harmless, but unfortunately most microbes are opportunistic and change their behaviour depending on environment. A rather benign bug can turn nasty really quick.

Given half a chance, most microbes try to organise themselves as a biofilm - think of it as a fortress. Most "Nasties" are anerobic bacteria, and they find ideal conditions on the bottom of the biofilm - although you may run your loop at 1.3 or higher, it's completely anaerobic inside the biofilm, the anaerobes like it and thrive. Therefore, leaving your loop wet and sit for a day or two is really a bad idea. Most disinfectant will not penetrate the biofilm, and, once formed, it becomes almost impossible to remove the infection source.

Most microbes require moisture/water to survive, so drying is probably the most effective method of removing bacteria. Drying also breaks down the biofilm and allows oxygen to penetrate the deeper areas of the film, killing the anaerobic bacteria present. Unfortunately, most bacteria form persister cells, inactive cells that hang out in the adverse invironment until conditions "improve", to start a new colony. I did some tests, and against what my first rebreather instructor (claim of fame: microbiologist) tried to make me believe I found that some oral bacteria can survive the conditions found inside the scrubber (pH 12).

Additionally, there are enough nutrients in the saliva (proteins, food residue, rbcs, sugars) to feed colonies of bacteria. Waiting for them to starve could take a while, especially once they formed a biofilm.

I tried a literature research about comperative tests of disinfecting agents for rebreathers, and found none. I know of the DRDC report, but that's "literature only".

So, here's what I hope works:

1) rinse with fresh water asap, slush water around to knock loose particles
2) if possible, soak in disinfectant. Pretty much dfm which one, as none will cover everything, and any might be better than none - although not conclusive on that one, because:
3) hang up in dry-ventilated area (AC in humd areas), allow to dry as much as possible.
4) shake out and quickly rinse with fresh water just before rigging up to remove residues

In terms of importance, I would think 1) and 3) are the main runners, possibly followed by 4)

I get the impression that, overall, things are not as bad as they may seem. It is also entirely possible that, while diving, we infect ourselves and treat ourselves at the same time with HBO - but I woun't volunteer to run a SP of 0.21 and see if it makes me sick.

?

Joerg

Hello Joerg,

indeed very informative. but i would like to ask you something though. i am extremely concerned about how to dry the hoses. also, i have been using dettol with water to clean the hoses and lungs, along with a bottle brush. do you think this is wrong?

the difficult part is the drying one, as you point out to be the most important. after i rinse with water, i just hang them and let them dry. they stay like that for days, until the next dive. i start to see some white substance that sort of stuck on the T-connection of the hoses. (i use a meg).

i've tried to remove that, when is wet, it doesn't show, but when it dries, its there and its hard to remove. what doyou think that is? also, i've thought about using a hairdryer to dry the hoses, but do you think it would damages that internal parts, like valves of BOV?

thanks.

Spyros

Gilles · 25th August 2007, 11:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Outlaw)

Hello Joerg,

the difficult part is the drying one, as you point out to be the most important.

.. i've thought about using a hairdryer to dry the hoses, but do you think it would damages that internal parts, like valves of BOV?

After reading this post a few months ago, I started drying my loop using one of those little air nozzles that you can attach to your LP inflator. Compressed air from a scuba tank is very dry and works good to dry the inside of the loop.

Following rinse, I squeeze/scrunch (accordian compress) each section of loop to get excess water out, and I then blow of a good 50b of pressure from an 80 cuft tank

drying out the center sections of the loop hose using the above mentioned nozzle.

Disinfection also every 7-10 days.

Cheers

Outlaw · 25th August 2007, 15:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles)

After reading this post a few months ago, I started drying my loop using one of those little air nozzles that you can attach to your LP inflator. Compressed air from a scuba tank is very dry and works good to dry the inside of the loop.

Following rinse, I squeeze/scrunch (accordian compress) each section of loop to get excess water out, and I then blow of a good 50b of pressure from an 80 cuft tank

drying out the center sections of the loop hose using the above mentioned nozzle.

Disinfection also every 7-10 days.

Cheers

Thanks Gilles,

i did not think that you have to disinfect every 7-10 days, and right now i got this heavy lungs feeling along with some phlegm in the morning...

Cheers,

Spyros

Outlaw · 25th August 2007, 17:59

ok, i have gone through it.

just curious to ask you now. how do you have your Rebreather packed when not diving. i mean do you have it set, or do you keep in boxes?

i heard somewhere that it is not recommended to hang stuff, like lungs and hoses because flies, insects etc might "jump" in and either contribute to bacteria developing etc.

what do the rest do?

Thanks

Spyros

Heavy Breather · 25th August 2007, 18:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by pattimegdiver)

I am in the habit of cleaning my loop and counter lungs at the time I change my scrubber, to avoid any type of lung or throat infection. If anyone uses or try out my Rebreather I definitely will santize the loop and counter lungs. Also if I do any warm water diving I usually will rinse the loop and counter lungs out every night.

I'm with you Patti, I picked up a nasty cough and tracked it back to the CL's. So I try to rinse out my loop and Counter Lungs every day of diving. Flush with water, put in 2 cap fulls of blue Lysterine in each (2 oz), slosh around and rinse again. If in a warm climate than I'm a little more diligent. I usually take a small bottle of home brew (one cap full Detol to 500 ml blue Lysterene) with me for sterilization purposes. This I rinse out very well.
I do a complete tear down after an overseas trips and sterilize again just in case there some squigglies or roaches caught a ride home with the gear. Saw a roach the size of my thumb crawl out of a buddies mouthpeice in cayman and I now do a visual on my loop when putting everything back together.
I'm a little concerned about putting certain chemical agents into my CLs. There are lots of disifectants out there, not many are suited to this equipment issue. You don't want to use anything that will distort or rot the mushroom valves or CL material.
So that's why I go with Lysterine. So what if there is a little left in the loop? Gives that fresh minty taste.
Leon used to call that stuff in the bottom of the CL "Lung Butter" Yuck.

HB

Outlaw · 25th August 2007, 19:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Heavy Breather)

So that's why I go with Lysterine. So what if there is a little left in the loop? Gives that fresh minty taste.
Leon used to call that stuff in the bottom of the CL "Lung Butter" Yuck.

HB

hey, can you give more info on this Lysterine? any links?

Thanks.

Spyros

steveharriss · 25th August 2007, 19:17

Welcome to Listerine
Just ordinary mouthwash..probably find it in a Chemists near you. Not sure how effective it would actually be at killing bacteria but you'll definitely get minty fresh breath. The thing that would bother me is "all contain the same combination of essential oils"!!! Doesn't sound too equipment friendly to me.

Outlaw · 25th August 2007, 19:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by steveharriss)

Welcome to Listerine
Just ordinary mouthwash..probably find it in a Chemists near you. Not sure how effective it would actually be at killing bacteria but you'll definitely get minty fresh breath. The thing that would bother me is "all contain the same combination of essential oils"!!! Doesn't sound too equipment friendly to me.

have you tried it? it does concern me about damaging valves or the hoses.

i've so far been using dettol, and i must say that when diving, you do feel that breath of it, makes you feel you are in the cleanest hospital in the surgery room and the cleaners have just gone through it. sometimes makes you want to spit. so, i would prefer some mint instead...

so, did you use it?

Thanks.

Spyros

25th May 2007, 12:57	#51 (permalink)
York probubbly not Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 118	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? >The results: gram negative bacteria found : >-Escherichia Coli You do know that you are supposed to put the mouthpiece only into your mouth Just kidding! But still curious how E.Coli got there. I tried looking into this a while ago (I am working on becoming a microbiologist), and this is what I concluded - in simple terms, no claim of completeness or accuracy: the microbes you will find inside the loop either come from yourself, or the environment. One might argue that therefore it might be harmless, but unfortunately most microbes are opportunistic and change their behaviour depending on environment. A rather benign bug can turn nasty really quick. Given half a chance, most microbes try to organise themselves as a biofilm - think of it as a fortress. Most "Nasties" are anerobic bacteria, and they find ideal conditions on the bottom of the biofilm - although you may run your loop at 1.3 or higher, it's completely anaerobic inside the biofilm, the anaerobes like it and thrive. Therefore, leaving your loop wet and sit for a day or two is really a bad idea. Most disinfectant will not penetrate the biofilm, and, once formed, it becomes almost impossible to remove the infection source. Most microbes require moisture/water to survive, so drying is probably the most effective method of removing bacteria. Drying also breaks down the biofilm and allows oxygen to penetrate the deeper areas of the film, killing the anaerobic bacteria present. Unfortunately, most bacteria form persister cells, inactive cells that hang out in the adverse invironment until conditions "improve", to start a new colony. I did some tests, and against what my first rebreather instructor (claim of fame: microbiologist) tried to make me believe I found that some oral bacteria can survive the conditions found inside the scrubber (pH 12). Additionally, there are enough nutrients in the saliva (proteins, food residue, rbcs, sugars) to feed colonies of bacteria. Waiting for them to starve could take a while, especially once they formed a biofilm. I tried a literature research about comperative tests of disinfecting agents for rebreathers, and found none. I know of the DRDC report, but that's "literature only". So, here's what I hope works: 1) rinse with fresh water asap, slush water around to knock loose particles 2) if possible, soak in disinfectant. Pretty much dfm which one, as none will cover everything, and any might be better than none - although not conclusive on that one, because: 3) hang up in dry-ventilated area (AC in humd areas), allow to dry as much as possible. 4) shake out and quickly rinse with fresh water just before rigging up to remove residues In terms of importance, I would think 1) and 3) are the main runners, possibly followed by 4) I get the impression that, overall, things are not as bad as they may seem. It is also entirely possible that, while diving, we infect ourselves and treat ourselves at the same time with HBO - but I woun't volunteer to run a SP of 0.21 and see if it makes me sick. ? Joerg
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26th May 2007, 07:08	#52 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 498	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Nice post Joerg! Very informative. What's your opinion about cleaning the breathing hoses with a long bottle brush? Does it break the biofilm? Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
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25th August 2007, 10:28	#53 (permalink)
Outlaw In search of Law breaking Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cyprus, Nicosia Posts: 735	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Quote: (Originally Posted by York) >The results: gram negative bacteria found : >-Escherichia Coli You do know that you are supposed to put the mouthpiece only into your mouth Just kidding! But still curious how E.Coli got there. I tried looking into this a while ago (I am working on becoming a microbiologist), and this is what I concluded - in simple terms, no claim of completeness or accuracy: the microbes you will find inside the loop either come from yourself, or the environment. One might argue that therefore it might be harmless, but unfortunately most microbes are opportunistic and change their behaviour depending on environment. A rather benign bug can turn nasty really quick. Given half a chance, most microbes try to organise themselves as a biofilm - think of it as a fortress. Most "Nasties" are anerobic bacteria, and they find ideal conditions on the bottom of the biofilm - although you may run your loop at 1.3 or higher, it's completely anaerobic inside the biofilm, the anaerobes like it and thrive. Therefore, leaving your loop wet and sit for a day or two is really a bad idea. Most disinfectant will not penetrate the biofilm, and, once formed, it becomes almost impossible to remove the infection source. Most microbes require moisture/water to survive, so drying is probably the most effective method of removing bacteria. Drying also breaks down the biofilm and allows oxygen to penetrate the deeper areas of the film, killing the anaerobic bacteria present. Unfortunately, most bacteria form persister cells, inactive cells that hang out in the adverse invironment until conditions "improve", to start a new colony. I did some tests, and against what my first rebreather instructor (claim of fame: microbiologist) tried to make me believe I found that some oral bacteria can survive the conditions found inside the scrubber (pH 12). Additionally, there are enough nutrients in the saliva (proteins, food residue, rbcs, sugars) to feed colonies of bacteria. Waiting for them to starve could take a while, especially once they formed a biofilm. I tried a literature research about comperative tests of disinfecting agents for rebreathers, and found none. I know of the DRDC report, but that's "literature only". So, here's what I hope works: 1) rinse with fresh water asap, slush water around to knock loose particles 2) if possible, soak in disinfectant. Pretty much dfm which one, as none will cover everything, and any might be better than none - although not conclusive on that one, because: 3) hang up in dry-ventilated area (AC in humd areas), allow to dry as much as possible. 4) shake out and quickly rinse with fresh water just before rigging up to remove residues In terms of importance, I would think 1) and 3) are the main runners, possibly followed by 4) I get the impression that, overall, things are not as bad as they may seem. It is also entirely possible that, while diving, we infect ourselves and treat ourselves at the same time with HBO - but I woun't volunteer to run a SP of 0.21 and see if it makes me sick. ? Joerg Hello Joerg, indeed very informative. but i would like to ask you something though. i am extremely concerned about how to dry the hoses. also, i have been using dettol with water to clean the hoses and lungs, along with a bottle brush. do you think this is wrong? the difficult part is the drying one, as you point out to be the most important. after i rinse with water, i just hang them and let them dry. they stay like that for days, until the next dive. i start to see some white substance that sort of stuck on the T-connection of the hoses. (i use a meg). i've tried to remove that, when is wet, it doesn't show, but when it dries, its there and its hard to remove. what doyou think that is? also, i've thought about using a hairdryer to dry the hoses, but do you think it would damages that internal parts, like valves of BOV? thanks. Spyros __________________ CMAS - IANTD - TDI Kamikazi Instrustor Trainer DIRRebreather Team Member ---------------------------- "Once an Outlaw, always an Outlaw"
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25th August 2007, 11:44	#54 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Quote: (Originally Posted by Outlaw) Hello Joerg, the difficult part is the drying one, as you point out to be the most important. .. i've thought about using a hairdryer to dry the hoses, but do you think it would damages that internal parts, like valves of BOV? After reading this post a few months ago, I started drying my loop using one of those little air nozzles that you can attach to your LP inflator. Compressed air from a scuba tank is very dry and works good to dry the inside of the loop. Following rinse, I squeeze/scrunch (accordian compress) each section of loop to get excess water out, and I then blow of a good 50b of pressure from an 80 cuft tank drying out the center sections of the loop hose using the above mentioned nozzle. Disinfection also every 7-10 days. Cheers __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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25th August 2007, 15:08	#55 (permalink)
Outlaw In search of Law breaking Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cyprus, Nicosia Posts: 735	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles) After reading this post a few months ago, I started drying my loop using one of those little air nozzles that you can attach to your LP inflator. Compressed air from a scuba tank is very dry and works good to dry the inside of the loop. Following rinse, I squeeze/scrunch (accordian compress) each section of loop to get excess water out, and I then blow of a good 50b of pressure from an 80 cuft tank drying out the center sections of the loop hose using the above mentioned nozzle. Disinfection also every 7-10 days. Cheers Thanks Gilles, i did not think that you have to disinfect every 7-10 days, and right now i got this heavy lungs feeling along with some phlegm in the morning... Cheers, Spyros __________________ CMAS - IANTD - TDI Kamikazi Instrustor Trainer DIRRebreather Team Member ---------------------------- "Once an Outlaw, always an Outlaw"
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25th August 2007, 17:59	#56 (permalink)
Outlaw In search of Law breaking Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cyprus, Nicosia Posts: 735	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? ok, i have gone through it. just curious to ask you now. how do you have your Rebreather packed when not diving. i mean do you have it set, or do you keep in boxes? i heard somewhere that it is not recommended to hang stuff, like lungs and hoses because flies, insects etc might "jump" in and either contribute to bacteria developing etc. what do the rest do? Thanks Spyros __________________ CMAS - IANTD - TDI Kamikazi Instrustor Trainer DIRRebreather Team Member ---------------------------- "Once an Outlaw, always an Outlaw"
(Offline)

25th August 2007, 18:20	#57 (permalink)
Heavy Breather RBW Writer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 27	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Quote: (Originally Posted by pattimegdiver) I am in the habit of cleaning my loop and counter lungs at the time I change my scrubber, to avoid any type of lung or throat infection. If anyone uses or try out my Rebreather I definitely will santize the loop and counter lungs. Also if I do any warm water diving I usually will rinse the loop and counter lungs out every night. I'm with you Patti, I picked up a nasty cough and tracked it back to the CL's. So I try to rinse out my loop and Counter Lungs every day of diving. Flush with water, put in 2 cap fulls of blue Lysterine in each (2 oz), slosh around and rinse again. If in a warm climate than I'm a little more diligent. I usually take a small bottle of home brew (one cap full Detol to 500 ml blue Lysterene) with me for sterilization purposes. This I rinse out very well. I do a complete tear down after an overseas trips and sterilize again just in case there some squigglies or roaches caught a ride home with the gear. Saw a roach the size of my thumb crawl out of a buddies mouthpeice in cayman and I now do a visual on my loop when putting everything back together. I'm a little concerned about putting certain chemical agents into my CLs. There are lots of disifectants out there, not many are suited to this equipment issue. You don't want to use anything that will distort or rot the mushroom valves or CL material. So that's why I go with Lysterine. So what if there is a little left in the loop? Gives that fresh minty taste. Leon used to call that stuff in the bottom of the CL "Lung Butter" Yuck. HB
(Offline)

25th August 2007, 19:07	#58 (permalink)
Outlaw In search of Law breaking Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cyprus, Nicosia Posts: 735	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Quote: (Originally Posted by Heavy Breather) So that's why I go with Lysterine. So what if there is a little left in the loop? Gives that fresh minty taste. Leon used to call that stuff in the bottom of the CL "Lung Butter" Yuck. HB hey, can you give more info on this Lysterine? any links? Thanks. Spyros __________________ CMAS - IANTD - TDI Kamikazi Instrustor Trainer DIRRebreather Team Member ---------------------------- "Once an Outlaw, always an Outlaw"
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25th August 2007, 19:17	#59 (permalink)
steveharriss Bubble free by choice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 192	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Welcome to Listerine Just ordinary mouthwash..probably find it in a Chemists near you. Not sure how effective it would actually be at killing bacteria but you'll definitely get minty fresh breath. The thing that would bother me is "all contain the same combination of essential oils"!!! Doesn't sound too equipment friendly to me. Last edited by steveharriss : 25th August 2007 at 19:20.
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25th August 2007, 19:37	#60 (permalink)
Outlaw In search of Law breaking Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cyprus, Nicosia Posts: 735	Re: Dirty loop and lung infection? Quote: (Originally Posted by steveharriss) Welcome to Listerine Just ordinary mouthwash..probably find it in a Chemists near you. Not sure how effective it would actually be at killing bacteria but you'll definitely get minty fresh breath. The thing that would bother me is "all contain the same combination of essential oils"!!! Doesn't sound too equipment friendly to me. have you tried it? it does concern me about damaging valves or the hoses. i've so far been using dettol, and i must say that when diving, you do feel that breath of it, makes you feel you are in the cleanest hospital in the surgery room and the cleaners have just gone through it. sometimes makes you want to spit. so, i would prefer some mint instead... so, did you use it? Thanks. Spyros __________________ CMAS - IANTD - TDI Kamikazi Instrustor Trainer DIRRebreather Team Member ---------------------------- "Once an Outlaw, always an Outlaw"
(Offline)

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