Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament

JCdesign97 · 8th May 2007, 19:17

I'm not a first responder, nor do I have any medical background whatsoever; but I just wanted to point out that any of the above remedies only apply if the cocktail in question was very mild - only affecting the mouth/throat/upper esophagus.

To loosely quote Jeff Bozanic in his book (because I just happened to re-read that particular section), if any caustic chemicals were actually inhaled and the lungs are involved, it is quite a serious matter and you need professional medical attention immediately. The injured lung tissue will secrete a fluid, which the body's immune system will then mobilize to fight and it's a very difficult situation to manage, even for said professionals.
Please excuse if I'm

n2diving · 10th May 2007, 15:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

While Rebreather diving in the Navy we have a bottle of lime juice in the boat to neutralize the caustic cocktail. After that not much you can do without medical attention.

That's interesting. Lime juice is even more acidic than lemon juice... it's significantly more acidic than Coke... So I would go with the Navy on that one, but Coke sure tastes a lot better when you are swishing it around in your mouth.

**Freef** · 10th May 2007, 20:16

Lime juice seems to be the recommended treatment in the UK.

As I understand things, the newer absorbents aren't anywhere near as nasty as sodalime, so the injury may be less of a problem anyway.

**Freef** · 10th May 2007, 20:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by JCdesign97)

...The injured lung tissue will secrete a fluid, which the body's immune system will then mobilize to fight and it's a very difficult situation to manage, even for said professionals...

Similar to secondary drowning by the sounds of things.

Of course, the best bet is to give me your rebreather, then you can dive OC and not worry about the problem.

JCdesign97 · 10th May 2007, 20:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef)

Of course, the best bet is to give me your rebreather, then you can dive OC and not worry about the problem.

An even better bet is on a unit that you have very little to no chance of said cocktail occurring in the first place ...

(couldn't resist the shameless plug and the flood of replies it will surely bring ... pun intended!)

Tom Mount · 10th May 2007, 21:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Diver Dude)

I drank Pepto Bismo...a lot of it. It took some of the burning sensation away. I was good after 24 hours

You are lucky- If you have a really bad cocktail and swallow it there is a danger it may make get to the bronochioles- if so it can shut them down- you will not be able to breathe period much more serious than shutting the air way down

Best solution is rinse (do not swallow)with Coke - and the baking soda I used with Peri- actually is not good - just happened to work in that case
The homeopathic remedy to use is Causticum you can get it at many health food stores

A bad caustic wil produce 2nd and thrid degree burns- or worse and yoiu can experience a Ph change as high as 14 due to the sodium hydroxide

We have a person doing a chapter for us now -who has done a few years reseach on ths on dealing with caustic will let everyone know when it is published- I have no idea of what is going to be in it.

In Peri's case she would have been in realy bad shape, possibly even dead due to shutdown of airways, if it were not for the use of acuapressure to open her airways- very scary situtation. and even more scary when you realize the people at the hosiptal do not have a clue about what to do nor did DAN when we called them - nor poison control- this is why we are having the person do the chapter on it for us- so it can be wide spread information

Even though it was a prototype Titan the problem was the mouthpeice was not being fully closed and open thus water was leaking into the system while doing repetitive drils over a 2 hour period-
It was a micropore cartridge, but would be the same affect on sofnolime as well.

best prevention use wel fitting mothpiece- keep dry - be sure to fully open and close mothpiece if removing and replacing it-

Fort Collins Bob · 10th May 2007, 21:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tom Mount)

The homeopathic remedy to use is Causticum you can get it at many health food stores

Thanks for the addition information !!

Can you point us in the direction of information about the acupressure
technique that you used?
( I understand there is an article coming and am looking forward to reading)

Are there any prescription drugs that might be of use that I could discuss
with my doctor about ?

Thanks

narked at 90 · 10th May 2007, 22:29

tom i think we all would welcome this study and i for one am sitting here waiting to read it, there are a few unknowns in diving and for many the imitate answer on site is o2 as i can see it is here to but having some help to an antidote or immediate relief on site could be a life saver or ease the transport to a medical sevice.....or at the very least to be able to inform the medical services of actions that should or should not be taken.
kind regards john routley

diveladydive · 11th May 2007, 05:08

Hi, it's Peri.

Tom, you did use causticum with me as well as baking soda. I remember that the baking soda burned like heck, but the causticum didn't, & that is what probably worked.

I still ended up out of the water for a few months with nodules on my larynx, which had nothing to do with Tom's treatment.

The caustic was due to diver error, not a problem with the Rebreather, as Tom noted. From all I have heard and managed to experience first and second person, diver error plays a large role in many caustics. This is a significant problem, as human error will exist long after most mechanical issues that could lead to a caustic are recognized and remediated.

As to why I now carry Coke on a dive: Imagine a mild hit. Keep in mind that the caustic ingredient in the hit stays active until fully neutralized. Now imagine a mild hit with an hour or two or five of deco, with a lye-based product burning through soft tissue. The picture gets very ugly, very fast, as many will attest. Now imagine a harder hit, and with deco obligations to fulfil. The picture just became quite a bit uglier.

After reading the posting on lime juice & Mark's response, I may add some to my Coke- I like it better that way anyhow, so I'll cover two things at once.

By the way, the Coke visited the Hydro last week, & deco'd just fine!

Mark, I hope you read my thank you, & your quote, on this thread.

Tom, thanks for all- especially for keeping me breathing, diving, & b****ing underwater... :-)

shil · 11th May 2007, 14:35

Can we know of the potency of CAUSTICUM- to be used ?

Would like to know to stock in my first aid box.

Shil

8th May 2007, 19:17	#11 (permalink)
JCdesign97 My unit can beat up yours Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: PA, USA Posts: 385	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament I'm not a first responder, nor do I have any medical background whatsoever; but I just wanted to point out that any of the above remedies only apply if the cocktail in question was very mild - only affecting the mouth/throat/upper esophagus. To loosely quote Jeff Bozanic in his book (because I just happened to re-read that particular section), if any caustic chemicals were actually inhaled and the lungs are involved, it is quite a serious matter and you need professional medical attention immediately. The injured lung tissue will secrete a fluid, which the body's immune system will then mobilize to fight and it's a very difficult situation to manage, even for said professionals. Please excuse if I'm __________________ Cheers, John Cogan
(Online)

10th May 2007, 15:35	#12 (permalink)
n2diving Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 271	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) While Rebreather diving in the Navy we have a bottle of lime juice in the boat to neutralize the caustic cocktail. After that not much you can do without medical attention. That's interesting. Lime juice is even more acidic than lemon juice... it's significantly more acidic than Coke... So I would go with the Navy on that one, but Coke sure tastes a lot better when you are swishing it around in your mouth.
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10th May 2007, 20:16	#13 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,353	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Lime juice seems to be the recommended treatment in the UK. As I understand things, the newer absorbents aren't anywhere near as nasty as sodalime, so the injury may be less of a problem anyway. __________________ David. Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.
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10th May 2007, 20:18	#14 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,353	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Quote: (Originally Posted by JCdesign97) ...The injured lung tissue will secrete a fluid, which the body's immune system will then mobilize to fight and it's a very difficult situation to manage, even for said professionals... Similar to secondary drowning by the sounds of things. Of course, the best bet is to give me your rebreather, then you can dive OC and not worry about the problem. __________________ David. Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.
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10th May 2007, 20:44	#15 (permalink)
JCdesign97 My unit can beat up yours Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: PA, USA Posts: 385	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef) Of course, the best bet is to give me your rebreather, then you can dive OC and not worry about the problem. An even better bet is on a unit that you have very little to no chance of said cocktail occurring in the first place ... (couldn't resist the shameless plug and the flood of replies it will surely bring ... pun intended!) __________________ Cheers, John Cogan
(Online)

10th May 2007, 21:05	#16 (permalink)
Tom Mount New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Posts: 96	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Quote: (Originally Posted by Diver Dude) I drank Pepto Bismo...a lot of it. It took some of the burning sensation away. I was good after 24 hours You are lucky- If you have a really bad cocktail and swallow it there is a danger it may make get to the bronochioles- if so it can shut them down- you will not be able to breathe period much more serious than shutting the air way down Best solution is rinse (do not swallow)with Coke - and the baking soda I used with Peri- actually is not good - just happened to work in that case The homeopathic remedy to use is Causticum you can get it at many health food stores A bad caustic wil produce 2nd and thrid degree burns- or worse and yoiu can experience a Ph change as high as 14 due to the sodium hydroxide We have a person doing a chapter for us now -who has done a few years reseach on ths on dealing with caustic will let everyone know when it is published- I have no idea of what is going to be in it. In Peri's case she would have been in realy bad shape, possibly even dead due to shutdown of airways, if it were not for the use of acuapressure to open her airways- very scary situtation. and even more scary when you realize the people at the hosiptal do not have a clue about what to do nor did DAN when we called them - nor poison control- this is why we are having the person do the chapter on it for us- so it can be wide spread information Even though it was a prototype Titan the problem was the mouthpeice was not being fully closed and open thus water was leaking into the system while doing repetitive drils over a 2 hour period- It was a micropore cartridge, but would be the same affect on sofnolime as well. best prevention use wel fitting mothpiece- keep dry - be sure to fully open and close mothpiece if removing and replacing it-
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10th May 2007, 21:55	#17 (permalink)
Fort Collins Bob Always Learning. Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Fort Collins Colorado Posts: 112	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Quote: (Originally Posted by Tom Mount) The homeopathic remedy to use is Causticum you can get it at many health food stores Thanks for the addition information !! Can you point us in the direction of information about the acupressure technique that you used? ( I understand there is an article coming and am looking forward to reading) Are there any prescription drugs that might be of use that I could discuss with my doctor about ? Thanks __________________ Best Regards all ------------------------------------------- Bob Fridell Ouroboros #46 Fort Collins, Colorado Last edited by Fort Collins Bob : 10th May 2007 at 22:32.
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10th May 2007, 22:29	#18 (permalink)
narked at 90 John Routley Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: middlands uk Posts: 1,029	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament tom i think we all would welcome this study and i for one am sitting here waiting to read it, there are a few unknowns in diving and for many the imitate answer on site is o2 as i can see it is here to but having some help to an antidote or immediate relief on site could be a life saver or ease the transport to a medical sevice.....or at the very least to be able to inform the medical services of actions that should or should not be taken. kind regards john routley __________________ CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *WWW.GRPSERVICES.COM*
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11th May 2007, 05:08	#19 (permalink)
diveladydive New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Titan Pelagian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southeastern Florida Posts: 50	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Hi, it's Peri. Tom, you did use causticum with me as well as baking soda. I remember that the baking soda burned like heck, but the causticum didn't, & that is what probably worked. I still ended up out of the water for a few months with nodules on my larynx, which had nothing to do with Tom's treatment. The caustic was due to diver error, not a problem with the Rebreather, as Tom noted. From all I have heard and managed to experience first and second person, diver error plays a large role in many caustics. This is a significant problem, as human error will exist long after most mechanical issues that could lead to a caustic are recognized and remediated. As to why I now carry Coke on a dive: Imagine a mild hit. Keep in mind that the caustic ingredient in the hit stays active until fully neutralized. Now imagine a mild hit with an hour or two or five of deco, with a lye-based product burning through soft tissue. The picture gets very ugly, very fast, as many will attest. Now imagine a harder hit, and with deco obligations to fulfil. The picture just became quite a bit uglier. After reading the posting on lime juice & Mark's response, I may add some to my Coke- I like it better that way anyhow, so I'll cover two things at once. By the way, the Coke visited the Hydro last week, & deco'd just fine! Mark, I hope you read my thank you, & your quote, on this thread. Tom, thanks for all- especially for keeping me breathing, diving, & b**ing underwater... :-) __________________ Complacency: Self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by ignorance of actual dangers or deficiencies. Success: A journey in which the improbable becomes possible, leading to surprising levels of achievement. Dr. Peri M. Blum Instructor, IANTD Member, Board of Advisors, IANTD www.supremedivers.com 561-901-9715** The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and the author’s alone. Last edited by diveladydive : 11th May 2007 at 06:15.
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11th May 2007, 14:35	#20 (permalink)
shil New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: India Posts: 29	Re: Caustic Cocktails - First Aid / Treament Can we know of the potency of CAUSTICUM- to be used ? Would like to know to stock in my first aid box. Shil
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