[gtzavelas]

from:
[News] DEMA 2006 Special: DAN Hosts DEMA Pre-conference Diving Fatalities Investigation Workshop Related to Rebreathers - Technical Diving
Diver’s Alert Network, the world’s diving safety association, hosted a workshop on November 7, 2006 to discuss with industry leaders the issues surrounding fatalities investigations related to rebreathers.



any info on this workshop?
was there any publications/results?

Did anyone from here attend?
Any interesting info?

[schford]

I got invited but alas was before I got out to Dema ....

[ScubaDadMiami]

I just sent DAN email to inquire about how to obtain copies of any available materials and transcripts. Let's see what they have to say. They usually get back to me within a couple of days.

I am guessing that they will say that it will be available for purchase in a while.

[aknelson]

Just PM I will send you a copy

ATH

[Gene_Hobbs]

Quote: (Originally Posted by gtzavelas)

any info on this workshop? was there any publications/results? Did anyone from here attend? Any interesting info?

This was mainly an organizational meeting prior to the 2008 Tech Diving Conference. The list of attendees was limited to the equipment manufacturers, training organizations, a few speakers, and three select guests (Sorry you could not make it Stewart, I tried...).

I am reading over and commenting on the first rough draft now. I should get the rough transcript sometime next week as well. There are SEVERAL points that need to be looked at before publication but those may make the final version anyway as I don't have much say. I am also not real sure what will happen to it once the manufacturers make their comments in the next month or so.

I'll make sure the final copy is posted here when it is ready.

Take care,
G

[granso]

Hi!
Attached you will find what was sent after the meeting. It is still IN PROGRESS.

This sounds interesting
[...]DAN has offered a page on its website where rebreather manufacturers can have links to their own websites for the purpose of allowing public access to checklists for use in the event of a rebreather fatality. [...]

My two cents having attended the meeting:
the rebreather community has a lot of work to do in terms of people's "perception" of rebreathers.
The image for OC divers is of something very technical and very dangerous.

Now I entered this world less than one year ago, and I am a recreational diver flyin with SCR, even if I like understanding things and therefore I read and discussed a lot about CCR as well. What I found out is that the rebreather community is not united, on the contrary (it's my feeling, I hope someone will deny) there are a lot of people trying to run other people down. This is not the way to grow a "baby", and to dispell the myth of the "silent death".

On the data presented: if you deal with statistics, you know it's "lies damn lies". I mean, give a set of data and a result you want to obtain ... there will be a test to get that result. Sad but true. You must be very honest and careful when handling data.
Some comments on the data presented:
when reported the number of fatalities depth was not specified, solo diving, cave diving etc ....
Now could you compare recreational OC diving and technical/cave rebreather diving?
Let's take cars: do you average indy or F1 accidents with highways or city accidents? I guess nobody would do that.

Now, a lot of the discussion was focussed on how sending the unit to coroners so that they get there in good condition. This is important in terms of finding out the reason of the fatality. But ... Is that the point?
Isn't it education the point to stress? In open circuit you start from OWD, not from DM.
I personally do not think the a particular unit is dangerous. You can share or not some technical choices. An accident happens bc you exceed your limits, bc of a human error.
And you can avoid errors by training extensively people.

Just two cents from a newby who loves being underwater and loves avoiding blowing bubbles.

[solocavediver]

I have to say I disagree with some of this....

" the rebreather community has a lot of work to do in terms of people's "perception" of rebreathers.
The image for OC divers is of something very technical and very dangerous."

Well no, right now the community needs to do some work on the machines themselves. The OC community is quite correct, they are very technical and very dangerous, just as early aeroplanes were very technical and dangerous compared to going by ship or train. But the point is it's early days, not for the idea of a rebreather - that's > a century old, maybe older than open circuit - but for the idea of rebreathers as a mass market thing that a large chunk of divers may want to do. But it is dangerous, dangerous enough to have my cavediver friends worried about me when I do it - and cavediving has a "most dangerous sport in the world" reputation, but still they worry about rebreathers.

"This is not the way to grow a "baby", and to dispell the myth of the "silent death"."

Well once again I sympathise, but it is not entirely a myth. There are a considerable number of unexplained deaths on rebreathers. Once they are fully understood, and the machines carefully designed and programmed to avoid them, we can hope that mature rebreather designs will be like mature aeroplane designs - the safest method of doing it that there is. Wouldn't that be nice!! Right now, we have the situation where if you're really expert, it can be safer on a rebreather - like aeroplanes circa 1925 were probably safer than ships if you REALLY knew what you were about. We need to aim for the time when even if you're a novice, the Rebreather is safer. It can be done.

- cheers,

Charles.

Quote: (Originally Posted by granso)

Hi!
Attached you will find what was sent after the meeting. It is still IN PROGRESS.

This sounds interesting
[...]DAN has offered a page on its website where rebreather manufacturers can have links to their own websites for the purpose of allowing public access to checklists for use in the event of a rebreather fatality. [...]

My two cents having attended the meeting:
the rebreather community has a lot of work to do in terms of people's "perception" of rebreathers.
The image for OC divers is of something very technical and very dangerous.

Now I entered this world less than one year ago, and I am a recreational diver flyin with SCR, even if I like understanding things and therefore I read and discussed a lot about CCR as well. What I found out is that the rebreather community is not united, on the contrary (it's my feeling, I hope someone will deny) there are a lot of people trying to run other people down. This is not the way to grow a "baby", and to dispell the myth of the "silent death".

On the data presented: if you deal with statistics, you know it's "lies damn lies". I mean, give a set of data and a result you want to obtain ... there will be a test to get that result. Sad but true. You must be very honest and careful when handling data.
Some comments on the data presented:
when reported the number of fatalities depth was not specified, solo diving, cave diving etc ....
Now could you compare recreational OC diving and technical/cave rebreather diving?
Let's take cars: do you average indy or F1 accidents with highways or city accidents? I guess nobody would do that.

Now, a lot of the discussion was focussed on how sending the unit to coroners so that they get there in good condition. This is important in terms of finding out the reason of the fatality. But ... Is that the point?
Isn't it education the point to stress? In open circuit you start from OWD, not from DM.
I personally do not think the a particular unit is dangerous. You can share or not some technical choices. An accident happens bc you exceed your limits, bc of a human error.
And you can avoid errors by training extensively people.

Just two cents from a newby who loves being underwater and loves avoiding blowing bubbles.

[leadking]

Quote: (Originally Posted by granso)

Hi!
Attached you will find what was sent after the meeting. It is still IN PROGRESS.

The attachemnt was sent out PRE-meeting and also handed out at the meeting. DAN is doing a transcript of the meeting and I will post when available.

Lee
Sea Pearls - Worldwide supplier of scuba diving weights & cylinders and DAN board member