Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives

6Gill · 29th September 2006, 14:14

[quote=decoweenie;69838]I have a hypothetical question...

If only 1% of the CCR dives resulted in requiring OC-bail-out from the bottom to surface, how many people would be willing to accept this risk for the sake of diving uncumbered without stages knowing that if they have a loop flood, they will die

For me, there is no thought of CCR diving at any depth without appropriate bailout. I've only been diving CCR for a short amount of time (started diving OC and surface supplied in the 1970's) but have already seen enough to know it would be irresponsible not to carry correct gas supplies. I did my share of deep air "way back when" but with the tools we have these days using air below 150' is stupid, I don't care how good a diver things he/she might be.

If divers are too lazy or cheap to carry the proper gear and mixes, or wish to ignore their training they should stick to OC (so ccr doesn't get a black eye).

Mark Chase · 29th September 2006, 14:27

[quote=viscya;69848]Mark

Quote:

I'm not sure where your runtime numbers are coming from, but V-planner is giving me less than 100-120 minute runtimes depending when you bump up the PPO2.

I didnt get the run times. He said he was doing between 120 and 180mins per dive.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark Chase · 29th September 2006, 14:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by iani)

I've had two complete floods out of the last two dives! it can happen.

Ian

(I am somewhat concerned about this Sunday's post factory trip test dives)

If you will insist on diving that crappy rebreather M8. Get your self a decent Vision unit

ATB

Mark Chase

decoweenie · 29th September 2006, 14:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

If you will insist on diving that crappy rebreather M8. Get your self a decent Vision unit

Apparently, "that crappy rebreather" might be going down the same company path as the VR-3 as "the last rebreather you will need to buy"...

...or may be not...

Actually, I am quite surprised to hear all of the teething issues about the Boris. And not a lot get discussed in public...

Mark Chase · 29th September 2006, 15:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Apparently, "that crappy rebreather" might be going down the same company path as the VR-3 as "the last rebreather you will need to buy"...

...or may be not...

Actually, I am quite surprised to hear all of the teething issues about the Boris. And not a lot get discussed in public...

Aparently there is a lot of healthy discussion on the closed Boris list but not much is making it out on to the open net.

Its a new and complex CCR so i am not surprised it has teathing problems.

ATB

Mark Chase

lbihler · 29th September 2006, 19:23

[quote=Mark Chase;69852]

Quote: (Originally Posted by viscya)

Mark

I didnt get the run times. He said he was doing between 120 and 180mins per dive.

ATB

Mark Chase

True it s what I said, following the computer (cochran), V planner tables give me less so I follow the most conservative (on the deco point of vue) and keep tables as back up. For pushing the CNS clock right, it s still a 130% max with air breaks and pushing the CNS like that over 3 days diving, correct me if I m wrong but what do I risk ? Pulmonary O2 toxicity, not convulsions, and compared to what people write on the forums, 130% CNS with air breaks is a risk I m definitely ready to take. Seriously none of you ever pushes CNS over 100% ?

Dave IR · 29th September 2006, 19:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Its a new and complex CCR so i am not surprised it has teathing problems.

2 of my friends who have bought Borises this year, have had a most miserable diving experience with them.
Floods ( by the most minute piece(s) of lime getting in the OPV and sticking it open ) and battery issues caused by the wet connectors switching the unit on all the time.

They also haven't got comfortable on the units to the extent they have cancelled their Mod3 course. This is after 90+ hours on the units.

IMO the units are over-designed and having all the weight in the base causes very poor trim - even for drysuit divers who can 'cheat' to some extent by letting excess air migrate to their feet to try and off-set the pendulum effect. But they still swim along like sea-horses

In a wetsuit, there is no chance of good trim.

6Gill · 29th September 2006, 22:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by lbihler)

Seriously none of you ever pushes CNS over 100% ?

Absolutely not!

iani · 29th September 2006, 22:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Aparently there is a lot of healthy discussion on the closed Boris list but not much is making it out on to the open net.

Its a new and complex CCR so i am not surprised it has teathing problems.

ATB

Mark Chase

TBH I don't think there is much on the boris list you'd be interested in Mark, it seems to me you either have a unit that works or one that has "issues". I should have had a weeks diving in Scapa two weeks back but I had a flood on dive 1 and then an electronics fault, in a potted component! I am told that the FFM is the most likely cause of the flood, apparently Mike Gadd has had a similar problem in the last few days so I am keen to see his opinion, I will be testing mine again this Sunday. When the unit works I think it's great, unfortunately I have had too many issues with this unit, none with the one that was stolen though.

Ian

Mark Chase · 30th September 2006, 07:59

[quote=lbihler;69886]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

True it s what I said, following the computer (cochran), V planner tables give me less so I follow the most conservative (on the deco point of vue) and keep tables as back up. For pushing the CNS clock right, it s still a 130% max with air breaks and pushing the CNS like that over 3 days diving, correct me if I m wrong but what do I risk ? Pulmonary O2 toxicity, not convulsions, and compared to what people write on the forums, 130% CNS with air breaks is a risk I m definitely ready to take. Seriously none of you ever pushes CNS over 100% ?

What your willing to risk is entirely up to you. I have no right to preach. However the wording and some of your responsis to the origional post sugests this is cutting new ground for you and you should be aware of all the risks.

Running high CNS on multi dive trips can result in mucs building up on the lungs and this can reduce their abuility to off gas. Air breaks are voodoo and are only realy designed to give the lungs a break during deco.

However if you'r aware of the risk and still feel comfortable doing it thats fine by me. Id push it a bit as well but id be a little cautious about deco.

ATB

Mark Chase

29th September 2006, 14:14	#21 (permalink)
6Gill Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 116	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives [quote=decoweenie;69838]I have a hypothetical question... If only 1% of the CCR dives resulted in requiring OC-bail-out from the bottom to surface, how many people would be willing to accept this risk for the sake of diving uncumbered without stages knowing that if they have a loop flood, they will die For me, there is no thought of CCR diving at any depth without appropriate bailout. I've only been diving CCR for a short amount of time (started diving OC and surface supplied in the 1970's) but have already seen enough to know it would be irresponsible not to carry correct gas supplies. I did my share of deep air "way back when" but with the tools we have these days using air below 150' is stupid, I don't care how good a diver things he/she might be. If divers are too lazy or cheap to carry the proper gear and mixes, or wish to ignore their training they should stick to OC (so ccr doesn't get a black eye).
(Online)

29th September 2006, 14:27	#22 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives [quote=viscya;69848]Mark Quote: I'm not sure where your runtime numbers are coming from, but V-planner is giving me less than 100-120 minute runtimes depending when you bump up the PPO2. I didnt get the run times. He said he was doing between 120 and 180mins per dive. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

29th September 2006, 14:45	#23 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives Quote: (Originally Posted by iani) I've had two complete floods out of the last two dives! it can happen. Ian (I am somewhat concerned about this Sunday's post factory trip test dives) If you will insist on diving that crappy rebreather M8. Get your self a decent Vision unit ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

29th September 2006, 14:57	#24 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) If you will insist on diving that crappy rebreather M8. Get your self a decent Vision unit Apparently, "that crappy rebreather" might be going down the same company path as the VR-3 as "the last rebreather you will need to buy"... ...or may be not... Actually, I am quite surprised to hear all of the teething issues about the Boris. And not a lot get discussed in public... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

29th September 2006, 15:41	#25 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Apparently, "that crappy rebreather" might be going down the same company path as the VR-3 as "the last rebreather you will need to buy"... ...or may be not... Actually, I am quite surprised to hear all of the teething issues about the Boris. And not a lot get discussed in public... Aparently there is a lot of healthy discussion on the closed Boris list but not much is making it out on to the open net. Its a new and complex CCR so i am not surprised it has teathing problems. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

29th September 2006, 19:23	#26 (permalink)
lbihler New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bangkok Posts: 56	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives [quote=Mark Chase;69852] Quote: (Originally Posted by viscya) Mark I didnt get the run times. He said he was doing between 120 and 180mins per dive. ATB Mark Chase True it s what I said, following the computer (cochran), V planner tables give me less so I follow the most conservative (on the deco point of vue) and keep tables as back up. For pushing the CNS clock right, it s still a 130% max with air breaks and pushing the CNS like that over 3 days diving, correct me if I m wrong but what do I risk ? Pulmonary O2 toxicity, not convulsions, and compared to what people write on the forums, 130% CNS with air breaks is a risk I m definitely ready to take. Seriously none of you ever pushes CNS over 100% ?
(Offline)

29th September 2006, 19:54	#27 (permalink)
Dave IR New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK, Portsmouth Posts: 47	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Its a new and complex CCR so i am not surprised it has teathing problems. 2 of my friends who have bought Borises this year, have had a most miserable diving experience with them. Floods ( by the most minute piece(s) of lime getting in the OPV and sticking it open ) and battery issues caused by the wet connectors switching the unit on all the time. They also haven't got comfortable on the units to the extent they have cancelled their Mod3 course. This is after 90+ hours on the units. IMO the units are over-designed and having all the weight in the base causes very poor trim - even for drysuit divers who can 'cheat' to some extent by letting excess air migrate to their feet to try and off-set the pendulum effect. But they still swim along like sea-horses In a wetsuit, there is no chance of good trim.
(Offline)

29th September 2006, 22:12	#28 (permalink)
6Gill Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 116	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives Quote: (Originally Posted by lbihler) Seriously none of you ever pushes CNS over 100% ? Absolutely not!
(Online)

29th September 2006, 22:23	#29 (permalink)
iani Nefarious Activist Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Middlesex, UK Posts: 334	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Aparently there is a lot of healthy discussion on the closed Boris list but not much is making it out on to the open net. Its a new and complex CCR so i am not surprised it has teathing problems. ATB Mark Chase TBH I don't think there is much on the boris list you'd be interested in Mark, it seems to me you either have a unit that works or one that has "issues". I should have had a weeks diving in Scapa two weeks back but I had a flood on dive 1 and then an electronics fault, in a potted component! I am told that the FFM is the most likely cause of the flood, apparently Mike Gadd has had a similar problem in the last few days so I am keen to see his opinion, I will be testing mine again this Sunday. When the unit works I think it's great, unfortunately I have had too many issues with this unit, none with the one that was stolen though. Ian
(Offline)

30th September 2006, 07:59	#30 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: Bailout Gases for long 60 metre dives [quote=lbihler;69886] Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) True it s what I said, following the computer (cochran), V planner tables give me less so I follow the most conservative (on the deco point of vue) and keep tables as back up. For pushing the CNS clock right, it s still a 130% max with air breaks and pushing the CNS like that over 3 days diving, correct me if I m wrong but what do I risk ? Pulmonary O2 toxicity, not convulsions, and compared to what people write on the forums, 130% CNS with air breaks is a risk I m definitely ready to take. Seriously none of you ever pushes CNS over 100% ? What your willing to risk is entirely up to you. I have no right to preach. However the wording and some of your responsis to the origional post sugests this is cutting new ground for you and you should be aware of all the risks. Running high CNS on multi dive trips can result in mucs building up on the lungs and this can reduce their abuility to off gas. Air breaks are voodoo and are only realy designed to give the lungs a break during deco. However if you'r aware of the risk and still feel comfortable doing it thats fine by me. Id push it a bit as well but id be a little cautious about deco. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

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