Buhlmann zhl 16.

babar · 24th June 2006, 16:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o)

Further more, i do not concure with fat being a fast tissue, but a rather slow one, due to the low diffusion in that specific tissue, and with that in mind it should be a standig invitation to loose the love handles (myself included)

/Allan

Actually, I don't believe that that's ever been proven. It's been long believed, but aint necessarely so. In fact, in some work done at University of Pennsylvania it looked like fat guys (myself included) may bubble less. Anyone want to do a study?

dan@scuba-training.net · 26th June 2006, 21:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o)

sounds rather stupid to call the algorithm zhl 16, based on 16 different tissues???

It is stupid to call it a 16-tissue model, it is a 16 COMPARTMENT model.

"Compartments", not "tissues".

(Tissues are used for cleaning your nose)

... and "dived" is the past tense of the verb "dive".

(Dove is a white bird.)

jasondrake · 27th June 2006, 01:27

Subcutaneous fat is pretty slow, due to low perfusion. But then it's also poorly innervated, and belly fat is fairly non-essential tissue. So a bubble or a type 1 DCS in your beer-belly is unlikely to cause symptoms. Who ever got a belly-bend?
Tendons, joints, ligaments - dense, tight, innervated tissue - so we get type 1 dcs in our joints.

babar · 27th June 2006, 04:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by jasondrake)

Subcutaneous fat is pretty slow, due to low perfusion. But then it's also poorly innervated, and belly fat is fairly non-essential tissue. So a bubble or a type 1 DCS in your beer-belly is unlikely to cause symptoms. Who ever got a belly-bend?
Tendons, joints, ligaments - dense, tight, innervated tissue - so we get type 1 dcs in our joints.

FWIW I saw a woman with a breast bend

jasondrake · 27th June 2006, 06:20

Cool! Apply even pressure to reduce the bubble.

decoweenie · 27th June 2006, 07:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by babar)

...a woman with a breast bend

aka Free Breast Enhancement !

**nigelh** · 27th June 2006, 21:34

One of the nice things about a linear flow model is that you can represent any tissue at the end of sequence of tissues with various half-times with one half time. Hence if the modelled compartments overlap enough, 16 is pretty good, you can represent anything and any combination of anything which is as near to everything as you can get.

There is no attempt to justify each compartment in Buhlmann's books just a discussion of how close they need to be to cover all composites and what the fastest and slowest should be.

chrisch · 28th June 2006, 13:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o)

Dont know if im correct here but.
In some way there must be some scientific proof of what kind of tissues tested??
Otherwise i sounds rather stupid to call the algorithm zhl 16, based on 16 different tissues???

Further more, i do not concure with fat being a fast tissue, but a rather slow one, due to the low diffusion in that specific tissue, and with that in mind it should be a standig invitation to loose the love handles (myself included)

/Allan

The tissue groups are theoretic mathematical models. No tissues were "tested" as such. I am not sure how you could test tissues.

Buhlmann's life work resulted in a series of algorithms that are known to give good deco profiles for N2. He sadly died before the Helium work was completed. The "idea" of tissue groups and half-times pre-dates Buhlmann and to be honest the nececcary science to "test" tissues.

If you are uncomfortable with the Buhlmann algorithms you can always choose one of the more modern models which are far less well tested in the field.

Chris

24th June 2006, 16:47	#11 (permalink)
babar Curmudgeon Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Sport Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 420	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o) Further more, i do not concure with fat being a fast tissue, but a rather slow one, due to the low diffusion in that specific tissue, and with that in mind it should be a standig invitation to loose the love handles (myself included) /Allan Actually, I don't believe that that's ever been proven. It's been long believed, but aint necessarely so. In fact, in some work done at University of Pennsylvania it looked like fat guys (myself included) may bubble less. Anyone want to do a study? __________________ Babar Evolution Plus Sport kiss Last edited by babar : 24th June 2006 at 16:49.
(Offline)

26th June 2006, 21:16	#12 (permalink)
dan@scuba-training.net New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Megalodon Sport Kiss Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 97	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o) sounds rather stupid to call the algorithm zhl 16, based on 16 different tissues??? It is stupid to call it a 16-tissue model, it is a 16 COMPARTMENT model. "Compartments", not "tissues". (Tissues are used for cleaning your nose) ... and "dived" is the past tense of the verb "dive". (Dove is a white bird.)
(Offline)

27th June 2006, 01:27	#13 (permalink)
jasondrake New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Completely homeless Posts: 75	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. Subcutaneous fat is pretty slow, due to low perfusion. But then it's also poorly innervated, and belly fat is fairly non-essential tissue. So a bubble or a type 1 DCS in your beer-belly is unlikely to cause symptoms. Who ever got a belly-bend? Tendons, joints, ligaments - dense, tight, innervated tissue - so we get type 1 dcs in our joints.
(Offline)

27th June 2006, 04:15	#14 (permalink)
babar Curmudgeon Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Sport Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 420	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. Quote: (Originally Posted by jasondrake) Subcutaneous fat is pretty slow, due to low perfusion. But then it's also poorly innervated, and belly fat is fairly non-essential tissue. So a bubble or a type 1 DCS in your beer-belly is unlikely to cause symptoms. Who ever got a belly-bend? Tendons, joints, ligaments - dense, tight, innervated tissue - so we get type 1 dcs in our joints. FWIW I saw a woman with a breast bend __________________ Babar Evolution Plus Sport kiss
(Offline)

27th June 2006, 06:20	#15 (permalink)
jasondrake New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Completely homeless Posts: 75	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. Cool! Apply even pressure to reduce the bubble.
(Offline)

27th June 2006, 07:38	#16 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. Quote: (Originally Posted by babar) ...a woman with a breast bend aka Free Breast Enhancement !
(Offline)

27th June 2006, 21:34	#17 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 824	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. One of the nice things about a linear flow model is that you can represent any tissue at the end of sequence of tissues with various half-times with one half time. Hence if the modelled compartments overlap enough, 16 is pretty good, you can represent anything and any combination of anything which is as near to everything as you can get. There is no attempt to justify each compartment in Buhlmann's books just a discussion of how close they need to be to cover all composites and what the fastest and slowest should be. __________________ nigelh
(Offline)

28th June 2006, 13:50	#18 (permalink)
chrisch New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Luxembourg Posts: 14	Re: Buhlmann zhl 16. Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o) Dont know if im correct here but. In some way there must be some scientific proof of what kind of tissues tested?? Otherwise i sounds rather stupid to call the algorithm zhl 16, based on 16 different tissues??? Further more, i do not concure with fat being a fast tissue, but a rather slow one, due to the low diffusion in that specific tissue, and with that in mind it should be a standig invitation to loose the love handles (myself included) /Allan The tissue groups are theoretic mathematical models. No tissues were "tested" as such. I am not sure how you could test tissues. Buhlmann's life work resulted in a series of algorithms that are known to give good deco profiles for N2. He sadly died before the Helium work was completed. The "idea" of tissue groups and half-times pre-dates Buhlmann and to be honest the nececcary science to "test" tissues. If you are uncomfortable with the Buhlmann algorithms you can always choose one of the more modern models which are far less well tested in the field. Chris
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode