Favourite bailout gases

**Steve** · 9th February 2006, 11:27

Glad it works for you Mike. Did you learn what to do in the event of a mushroom valve failure on your trimix course? Do us a favour and stow the attitude mate.

Drmike · 9th February 2006, 11:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by Underwaterbear)

Actually Mike, I was looking for discussion and ideas rather than critism and cynicism...

back at you mate. Here was me thinking you were usually a generous sort of fellow. Maybe you're having an off day.

I agree with you in regard to SCR bailout technique. Of course I learnt that on my SCR course (also useful). Of course I feel Steve's point regarding deco is well made, I guess one might carry a plan for that eventuality but he's right in saying that making things simpler is always prefferable.

Btw, for what it's worth Mike, I've done a CCR tmx course and am in the process of getting my head around some ideas. Forgive me for posting neophyte questions in your esteemed presence.

I wasnt actually aiming my cynicism at you personaly - but to those others who previosuly on one hand insist there is nothing to learn on a ccr trimix course and then turn around and ask others on forums to teach them what they could learn on a course. I have no idea of your training so wouldnt make the assumption that you were doing this - it was more of a general thingy and I guess I took the opertunity of your post to illustrate it.

Im sorry if you thought I was having a bash. I really wasnt - at least not at you personally.

I tried to give you my thoughts anyway in the next post.
(with a healthy dose of more cynicism

)

Drmike · 9th February 2006, 11:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Glad it works for you Mike. Did you learn what to do in the event of a mushroom valve failure on your trimix course? Do us a favour and stow the attitude mate.

Wow, I think you are the one with the attitude mate I would have thought that as a CCR instructor you would have been happy that I was supporting people doing courses.

Then again Ive never heard a instructor suggesting OC over SCR on a deep dive before either.

What has a failed mushroom valve got to do with anything? - And yes I did by the way

No need to throw your dummy out the pram and get all personal sweetheart - maybe it was the way I wrote my post but I didnt mean it to come across in the way you obviously found it.

I apologise if Ive ofended you.

**Steve** · 9th February 2006, 11:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

What has a failed mushroom valve got to do with anything? - And yes I did by the way

I apologise if Ive ofended you.

I'll get over it

To answer your question; if it is the inhale one, it removes SCR bailout from the equation. Hence why I prefer self sufficient or team OC bailout over SCR. K.I.S.S.

Nick uk. · 9th February 2006, 11:52

In planning bail out you have think 'worst case scenario' last minute of the dive and your hose gets ripped open! All the ascent and deco has to be catered for, IMHO

Nick uk. · 9th February 2006, 11:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.)

In planning bail out you have think 'worst case scenario' last minute of the dive and your hose gets ripped open! All the ascent and deco has to be catered for, IMHO

Ahhh but then what do i know, i haven't done a CCR Trimix course either.

Drmike · 9th February 2006, 12:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

To answer your question; if it is the inhale one, it removes SCR bailout from the equation. Hence why I prefer self sufficient or team OC bailout over SCR. K.I.S.S.

I would certainly be more weiry using SCR bailout in the event of CO2 problems (be that scrubber or check valves) because you can still end up with high co2 in the loop so in this case if I had plenty of gas then OC would be the way I would go.

If the inhale check valve has stuck open its still possible to run SCR by crushing the inhale hoses between breaths - but in this extreme case why bother if you have plenty of OC gas.

I believe that at depth on a working scrubber SCR is better than OC bail because you never know what delays or problems you might have and you are now using a finite OC gas supply.

Drmike · 9th February 2006, 12:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.)

In planning bail out you have think 'worst case scenario' last minute of the dive and your hose gets ripped open! All the ascent and deco has to be catered for, IMHO

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.)

Ahhh but then what do i know, i haven't done a CCR Trimix course either.

Actually the worst case is at the furthest point in the dive when you turn it - when you are the furthest from the upline (or exit from the cave/wreck) or the point where an ascent is possible. An imediate ascent from a deep dive is not always possible or preffered for a number of reasons and so you may have to factor the bottom travel gas in, which can be very substantial and far greater than the ascent gas.

In rough seas, strong currents, bad surface viz (night dive) etc its nice to have the option to travel to the upline and ascend there rather than do an imediate ascent - SCR gives me that option without the need to carry a shed load of bottom bail gas.

pchanning · 9th February 2006, 12:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Actually the worst case is at the furthest point in the dive when you turn it - when you are the furthest from the upline (or exit from the cave/wreck) or the point where an ascent is possible. An imediate ascent from a deep dive is not always possible or preffered for a number of reasons and so you may have to factor the bottom travel gas in, which can be very substantial and far greater than the ascent gas.

...not to mention a Co2 hit - ...huh, LOL, like you dont know that!

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

In rough seas, strong currents, bad surface viz (night dive) etc its nice to have the option to travel to the upline and ascend there rather than do an imediate ascent - SCR gives me that option without the need to carry a shed load of bottom bail gas.

Funnily enough, one your earlier 'events' factored very highly in my choice for a BIG bottom mix tin, that and the fact that a bend is fixable and drowning isn't.

I dont what "a shed load of bottom bail gas" is. Is it more than an AL80..??

Mark Chase · 9th February 2006, 12:58

Personally I have done the Mod3 trimix CCR course but it didn't teach me anything new that would help with this question. Im my mind any sort of bailout plan that involves using the CCR is unacceptable. Bailout plans for me are OC based. Anything else is semi Alpinist. I didn't need a CCR based training to let me figure out an OC decompression form X depth and then include a suitable travel gas to get from depth to deco mix.

Personally I think the fixed syllabus TDI trimix training for Mod3 is rubbish. There are instructors out there who are writing their own syllabus and in one case i am aware of he is writing a proper CCR based exam. Whilst these enhanced courses may be excellent (and i have signed up for something along these lines) it doesn't detract from what a shambles the existing set training program really is. No manual, no exam paper and little of benefit in the fixed syllabus.

ATB

9th February 2006, 11:27	#11 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,117	Re: Favourite bailout gases Glad it works for you Mike. Did you learn what to do in the event of a mushroom valve failure on your trimix course? Do us a favour and stow the attitude mate. __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
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9th February 2006, 11:29	#12 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,303	Re: Favourite bailout gases Quote: (Originally Posted by Underwaterbear) Actually Mike, I was looking for discussion and ideas rather than critism and cynicism... back at you mate. Here was me thinking you were usually a generous sort of fellow. Maybe you're having an off day. I agree with you in regard to SCR bailout technique. Of course I learnt that on my SCR course (also useful). Of course I feel Steve's point regarding deco is well made, I guess one might carry a plan for that eventuality but he's right in saying that making things simpler is always prefferable. Btw, for what it's worth Mike, I've done a CCR tmx course and am in the process of getting my head around some ideas. Forgive me for posting neophyte questions in your esteemed presence. I wasnt actually aiming my cynicism at you personaly - but to those others who previosuly on one hand insist there is nothing to learn on a ccr trimix course and then turn around and ask others on forums to teach them what they could learn on a course. I have no idea of your training so wouldnt make the assumption that you were doing this - it was more of a general thingy and I guess I took the opertunity of your post to illustrate it. Im sorry if you thought I was having a bash. I really wasnt - at least not at you personally. I tried to give you my thoughts anyway in the next post. (with a healthy dose of more cynicism ) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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9th February 2006, 11:38	#13 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,303	Re: Favourite bailout gases Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Glad it works for you Mike. Did you learn what to do in the event of a mushroom valve failure on your trimix course? Do us a favour and stow the attitude mate. Wow, I think you are the one with the attitude mate I would have thought that as a CCR instructor you would have been happy that I was supporting people doing courses. Then again Ive never heard a instructor suggesting OC over SCR on a deep dive before either. What has a failed mushroom valve got to do with anything? - And yes I did by the way No need to throw your dummy out the pram and get all personal sweetheart - maybe it was the way I wrote my post but I didnt mean it to come across in the way you obviously found it. I apologise if Ive ofended you. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

9th February 2006, 11:46	#14 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,117	Re: Favourite bailout gases Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) What has a failed mushroom valve got to do with anything? - And yes I did by the way I apologise if Ive ofended you. I'll get over it To answer your question; if it is the inhale one, it removes SCR bailout from the equation. Hence why I prefer self sufficient or team OC bailout over SCR. K.I.S.S. __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
(Offline)

9th February 2006, 11:52	#15 (permalink)
Nick uk. Made in England. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Viale C.Colombo 75 Marina di Carrara. MS 54036 Italy Posts: 579	Re: Favourite bailout gases In planning bail out you have think 'worst case scenario' last minute of the dive and your hose gets ripped open! All the ascent and deco has to be catered for, IMHO __________________ If it aint broke....don't fix it, and if it is.............well......get another one! divechief2000@hotmail.com
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9th February 2006, 11:54	#16 (permalink)
Nick uk. Made in England. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Viale C.Colombo 75 Marina di Carrara. MS 54036 Italy Posts: 579	Re: Favourite bailout gases Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.) In planning bail out you have think 'worst case scenario' last minute of the dive and your hose gets ripped open! All the ascent and deco has to be catered for, IMHO Ahhh but then what do i know, i haven't done a CCR Trimix course either. __________________ If it aint broke....don't fix it, and if it is.............well......get another one! divechief2000@hotmail.com
(Offline)

9th February 2006, 12:00	#17 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,303	Re: Favourite bailout gases Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) To answer your question; if it is the inhale one, it removes SCR bailout from the equation. Hence why I prefer self sufficient or team OC bailout over SCR. K.I.S.S. I would certainly be more weiry using SCR bailout in the event of CO2 problems (be that scrubber or check valves) because you can still end up with high co2 in the loop so in this case if I had plenty of gas then OC would be the way I would go. If the inhale check valve has stuck open its still possible to run SCR by crushing the inhale hoses between breaths - but in this extreme case why bother if you have plenty of OC gas. I believe that at depth on a working scrubber SCR is better than OC bail because you never know what delays or problems you might have and you are now using a finite OC gas supply. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

9th February 2006, 12:19	#18 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,303	Re: Favourite bailout gases Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.) In planning bail out you have think 'worst case scenario' last minute of the dive and your hose gets ripped open! All the ascent and deco has to be catered for, IMHO Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.) Ahhh but then what do i know, i haven't done a CCR Trimix course either. Actually the worst case is at the furthest point in the dive when you turn it - when you are the furthest from the upline (or exit from the cave/wreck) or the point where an ascent is possible. An imediate ascent from a deep dive is not always possible or preffered for a number of reasons and so you may have to factor the bottom travel gas in, which can be very substantial and far greater than the ascent gas. In rough seas, strong currents, bad surface viz (night dive) etc its nice to have the option to travel to the upline and ascend there rather than do an imediate ascent - SCR gives me that option without the need to carry a shed load of bottom bail gas. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

9th February 2006, 12:38	#19 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Re: Favourite bailout gases Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Actually the worst case is at the furthest point in the dive when you turn it - when you are the furthest from the upline (or exit from the cave/wreck) or the point where an ascent is possible. An imediate ascent from a deep dive is not always possible or preffered for a number of reasons and so you may have to factor the bottom travel gas in, which can be very substantial and far greater than the ascent gas. ...not to mention a Co2 hit - ...huh, LOL, like you dont know that! Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) In rough seas, strong currents, bad surface viz (night dive) etc its nice to have the option to travel to the upline and ascend there rather than do an imediate ascent - SCR gives me that option without the need to carry a shed load of bottom bail gas. Funnily enough, one your earlier 'events' factored very highly in my choice for a BIG bottom mix tin, that and the fact that a bend is fixable and drowning isn't. I dont what "a shed load of bottom bail gas" is. Is it more than an AL80..?? __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival.
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9th February 2006, 12:58	#20 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: Favourite bailout gases Personally I have done the Mod3 trimix CCR course but it didn't teach me anything new that would help with this question. Im my mind any sort of bailout plan that involves using the CCR is unacceptable. Bailout plans for me are OC based. Anything else is semi Alpinist. I didn't need a CCR based training to let me figure out an OC decompression form X depth and then include a suitable travel gas to get from depth to deco mix. Personally I think the fixed syllabus TDI trimix training for Mod3 is rubbish. There are instructors out there who are writing their own syllabus and in one case i am aware of he is writing a proper CCR based exam. Whilst these enhanced courses may be excellent (and i have signed up for something along these lines) it doesn't detract from what a shambles the existing set training program really is. No manual, no exam paper and little of benefit in the fixed syllabus. ATB __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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