Deco software

ROB DAVIE · 13th March 2005, 18:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Does GAP handle heliox better? I'm finding that v-planner etc loads the deco a lot with it...

V-planner, Proplanner, VR£ and decoplanner for OC.

Mdemon,

I've been on the injured list here lately, so haven't had much will to sit down to side by side runs of the two. I am getting back in action now, so that will be a "project".

I have been hearing a lot lately, about various programs and the effect of the depth of their deep-stops, and the timing of same. We know, of course, that they affect the shallow stages in any program, but there seems to be little info on comparisons in general, and none on exactly how each algorithm affects its own shallow stages.

Any thoughts?

Rob

Mdemon · 13th March 2005, 19:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE)

Mdemon,

I've been on the injured list here lately, so haven't had much will to sit down to side by side runs of the two. I am getting back in action now, so that will be a "project".

I have been hearing a lot lately, about various programs and the effect of the depth of their deep-stops, and the timing of same. We know, of course, that they affect the shallow stages in any program, but there seems to be little info on comparisons in general, and none on exactly how each algorithm affects its own shallow stages.

Any thoughts?

Rob

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear you've been out of action - I hope you are on the mend.

I'm not an expert and I would also like to see those comparisons, the affect on shallow stops. Additionally, I'd like to see the effect of heliox compared.

And finally, I'm also wondering whether the out of vogue "bend and mend" type theories have a place in bailout - the concept being get shallow fast, closer to help, on to the O2 early and less travel gas needed.

Anyone else have any theories?

***EBT*** · 16th March 2005, 13:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

And finally, I'm also wondering whether the out of vogue "bend and mend" type theories have a place in bailout - the concept being get shallow fast, closer to help, on to the O2 early and less travel gas needed.

Anyone else have any theories?

Personal belief Warning....

I tend to stick with what Im happy with, which is decoing and controlling the bubble load at depth. If you start bubbling deep, your problems are going to compound. Worst case scenario is blowing off the shallow stops and getting on the boat for O2.

Normally any big diving I take a drop tank rig for (2,200 Litres of 50%). If Im still sat down over my run time, and with a yellow bag up, I'd expect someone to nip down. Thats what I do for others.

ROB DAVIE · 16th March 2005, 14:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by wreckweasel)

Personal belief Warning....

I tend to stick with what Im happy with, which is decoing and controlling the bubble load at depth. If you start bubbling deep, your problems are going to compound. Worst case scenario is blowing off the shallow stops and getting on the boat for O2.

Normally any big diving I take a drop tank rig for (2,200 Litres of 50%). If Im still sat down over my run time, and with a yellow bag up, I'd expect someone to nip down. Thats what I do for others.

Wreck, and Mdemon,

I realize the question started as a way of thinking about bailout, and the cubic footage needed to do same, but the one major caveat that I have found in the literature is the "fast out" effect of our friend Helium.

Everything that I have seen tends to show that the deep stops are really necessary to give the He a chance to "squirt" out. Unfortunately, this has a deleterious effect on our cubic footage requirements for bail-out!

This is, of course, an over-simplification, but all clinical and field reporting tends to show that our friend and "bend and mend" do not play well together.

Rob

***EBT*** · 16th March 2005, 15:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE)

Everything that I have seen tends to show that the deep stops are really necessary to give the He a chance to "squirt" out. Unfortunately, this has a deleterious effect on our cubic footage requirements for bail-out!

Read again rob, exactly the strategy I follow

. Your helium volume if you skip deep stops gets silly. Also, shallow deco screwups can be fixed a whole lot easier than deep ones!

Mdemon · 16th March 2005, 15:44

Well, that's put that one to bed!

So, as posted elsewhere, the aim is to have enough bailout to do it "cleanly", so deep stops to get the He out have to stay...

Thanks for the responses!

ROB DAVIE · 16th March 2005, 15:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by wreckweasel)

Read again rob, exactly the strategy I follow. Your helium volume if you skip deep stops gets silly. Also, shallow deco screwups can be fixed a whole lot easier than deep ones!

Wreck,

Actually, I understand that. I was just including you since you were part of that discussion.

Rob

lizardland · 17th March 2005, 13:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Helium_diver)

the one from lizardland looks promising. Going to have to get out my metric conversion charts thou

Yeah, sorry, adding in English units (the American system... what's going on there??!?!?) was just too much hassle. It's been around for about 8yrs and I still haven't done it! Thanks for the recommendations.

I'm not sure I understand the other question. If you select Rebreather mode then it will be in constant PO2 mode. The other gases can be chosen for switching as diluents on the ascent. If you are only planning one diluent for the whole dive then switch off everything you aren't using, just keep the diluent you are using switched on.

If you have any more questions then ask away.

Cheers,

Stuart
(Author of XS)

Duncan Price · 17th March 2005, 13:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Helium_diver)

MY question as i am a new convert to the darkside. What is everyone using for ccr deco software . Are do you just rely on your computers? Thanks for the help

Helium_diver

Last year I wrote my own using the nice information that Stuart Morrison put up on his website. It addressed things that other software didn't do:

1. You drew your dive profile (tausim does this)
2. You could do a direct ascent to the surface putting in stops and gas switches automatically.
or
2. You could reverse your dive profile back to your starting point putting in stops/switches automatically (useful for cave dives)
or
2. You could do it all manually.
3. It tracked OC gas usage for you so that you could turn a dive on thirds and then find out that you didn't have enough gas to surface. :-(

I implemented CCR mode in it - you could change your setpoint at any stage as well as diluent composition. The nice feature was that you could come off CCR at any point and see how much bailout of whatever gases you had available to get to the surface directly or back the way you came.

Came in handy for doing some simulations and what if scenarios. Never used it to plan a dive and still a bit buggy. Been on the back burner for a while but I reckon it had some useful funtionality.

***EBT*** · 17th March 2005, 14:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by Duncan Price)

I implemented CCR mode in it - you could change your setpoint at any stage as well as diluent composition. The nice feature was that you could come off CCR at any point and see how much bailout of whatever gases you had available to get to the surface directly or back the way you came.

Came in handy for doing some simulations and what if scenarios. Never used it to plan a dive and still a bit buggy. Been on the back burner for a while but I reckon it had some useful funtionality.

So with all the spare time on your hands now.....

<-------- now this is what they should have on the VR3 when you bailout!!

13th March 2005, 18:35	#11 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Helium Use Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Does GAP handle heliox better? I'm finding that v-planner etc loads the deco a lot with it... V-planner, Proplanner, VR£ and decoplanner for OC. Mdemon, I've been on the injured list here lately, so haven't had much will to sit down to side by side runs of the two. I am getting back in action now, so that will be a "project". I have been hearing a lot lately, about various programs and the effect of the depth of their deep-stops, and the timing of same. We know, of course, that they affect the shallow stages in any program, but there seems to be little info on comparisons in general, and none on exactly how each algorithm affects its own shallow stages. Any thoughts? Rob __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

13th March 2005, 19:22	#12 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,926	Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE) Mdemon, I've been on the injured list here lately, so haven't had much will to sit down to side by side runs of the two. I am getting back in action now, so that will be a "project". I have been hearing a lot lately, about various programs and the effect of the depth of their deep-stops, and the timing of same. We know, of course, that they affect the shallow stages in any program, but there seems to be little info on comparisons in general, and none on exactly how each algorithm affects its own shallow stages. Any thoughts? Rob Hi Rob, Sorry to hear you've been out of action - I hope you are on the mend. I'm not an expert and I would also like to see those comparisons, the affect on shallow stops. Additionally, I'd like to see the effect of heliox compared. And finally, I'm also wondering whether the out of vogue "bend and mend" type theories have a place in bailout - the concept being get shallow fast, closer to help, on to the O2 early and less travel gas needed. Anyone else have any theories? __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
(Offline)

16th March 2005, 13:40	#13 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,969	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) And finally, I'm also wondering whether the out of vogue "bend and mend" type theories have a place in bailout - the concept being get shallow fast, closer to help, on to the O2 early and less travel gas needed. Anyone else have any theories? Personal belief Warning.... I tend to stick with what Im happy with, which is decoing and controlling the bubble load at depth. If you start bubbling deep, your problems are going to compound. Worst case scenario is blowing off the shallow stops and getting on the boat for O2. Normally any big diving I take a drop tank rig for (2,200 Litres of 50%). If Im still sat down over my run time, and with a yellow bag up, I'd expect someone to nip down. Thats what I do for others. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
(Offline)

16th March 2005, 14:57	#14 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Deco Software Quote: (Originally Posted by wreckweasel) Personal belief Warning.... I tend to stick with what Im happy with, which is decoing and controlling the bubble load at depth. If you start bubbling deep, your problems are going to compound. Worst case scenario is blowing off the shallow stops and getting on the boat for O2. Normally any big diving I take a drop tank rig for (2,200 Litres of 50%). If Im still sat down over my run time, and with a yellow bag up, I'd expect someone to nip down. Thats what I do for others. Wreck, and Mdemon, I realize the question started as a way of thinking about bailout, and the cubic footage needed to do same, but the one major caveat that I have found in the literature is the "fast out" effect of our friend Helium. Everything that I have seen tends to show that the deep stops are really necessary to give the He a chance to "squirt" out. Unfortunately, this has a deleterious effect on our cubic footage requirements for bail-out! This is, of course, an over-simplification, but all clinical and field reporting tends to show that our friend and "bend and mend" do not play well together. Rob
(Offline)

16th March 2005, 15:26	#15 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,969	Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE) Everything that I have seen tends to show that the deep stops are really necessary to give the He a chance to "squirt" out. Unfortunately, this has a deleterious effect on our cubic footage requirements for bail-out! Read again rob, exactly the strategy I follow . Your helium volume if you skip deep stops gets silly. Also, shallow deco screwups can be fixed a whole lot easier than deep ones! __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
(Offline)

16th March 2005, 15:44	#16 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,926	Well, that's put that one to bed! So, as posted elsewhere, the aim is to have enough bailout to do it "cleanly", so deep stops to get the He out have to stay... Thanks for the responses! __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
(Offline)

16th March 2005, 15:49	#17 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Quote: (Originally Posted by wreckweasel) Read again rob, exactly the strategy I follow. Your helium volume if you skip deep stops gets silly. Also, shallow deco screwups can be fixed a whole lot easier than deep ones! Wreck, Actually, I understand that. I was just including you since you were part of that discussion. Rob __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

17th March 2005, 13:04	#18 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,299	Quote: (Originally Posted by Helium_diver) the one from lizardland looks promising. Going to have to get out my metric conversion charts thou Yeah, sorry, adding in English units (the American system... what's going on there??!?!?) was just too much hassle. It's been around for about 8yrs and I still haven't done it! Thanks for the recommendations. I'm not sure I understand the other question. If you select Rebreather mode then it will be in constant PO2 mode. The other gases can be chosen for switching as diluents on the ascent. If you are only planning one diluent for the whole dive then switch off everything you aren't using, just keep the diluent you are using switched on. If you have any more questions then ask away. Cheers, Stuart (Author of XS)
(Offline)

17th March 2005, 13:55	#19 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 335	Quote: (Originally Posted by Helium_diver) MY question as i am a new convert to the darkside. What is everyone using for ccr deco software . Are do you just rely on your computers? Thanks for the help Helium_diver Last year I wrote my own using the nice information that Stuart Morrison put up on his website. It addressed things that other software didn't do: 1. You drew your dive profile (tausim does this) 2. You could do a direct ascent to the surface putting in stops and gas switches automatically. or 2. You could reverse your dive profile back to your starting point putting in stops/switches automatically (useful for cave dives) or 2. You could do it all manually. 3. It tracked OC gas usage for you so that you could turn a dive on thirds and then find out that you didn't have enough gas to surface. :-( I implemented CCR mode in it - you could change your setpoint at any stage as well as diluent composition. The nice feature was that you could come off CCR at any point and see how much bailout of whatever gases you had available to get to the surface directly or back the way you came. Came in handy for doing some simulations and what if scenarios. Never used it to plan a dive and still a bit buggy. Been on the back burner for a while but I reckon it had some useful funtionality.
(Offline)

17th March 2005, 14:01	#20 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,969	Quote: (Originally Posted by Duncan Price) I implemented CCR mode in it - you could change your setpoint at any stage as well as diluent composition. The nice feature was that you could come off CCR at any point and see how much bailout of whatever gases you had available to get to the surface directly or back the way you came. Came in handy for doing some simulations and what if scenarios. Never used it to plan a dive and still a bit buggy. Been on the back burner for a while but I reckon it had some useful funtionality. So with all the spare time on your hands now..... <-------- now this is what they should have on the VR3 when you bailout!! __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
(Offline)

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