Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1???

Brainx3 · 22nd January 2008, 10:55

Hi,

I agree with you Phil, but unfortunately diving organisations take lots of time to change or modify a course and since instructors are teaching everyday and students are diving everyday then the best thing an instructor can do is to explain to his/her student a bit more on how to stay "Safe" and one way to do that is of course by eliminating any problem factors in advance. BUT, if diving instructors and those who are involved in diving organisations on high profile would make a stand to increase the safety standard within courses then of course it would be the best solution for everyone.

Best Regards. Wael

**PhilSiswick** · 22nd January 2008, 11:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Brainx3)

Hi,

I agree with you Phil, but unfortunately diving organisations take lots of time to change or modify a course and since instructors are teaching everyday and students are diving everyday then the best thing an instructor can do is to explain to his/her student a bit more on how to stay "Safe" and one way to do that is of course by eliminating any problem factors in advance. BUT, if diving instructors and those who are involved in diving organisations on high profile would make a stand to increase the safety standard within courses then of course it would be the best solution for everyone.

Best Regards. Wael

Hi Wael,

I agree entirely, but it's a question of how. I think (and it is just my opinion) that instructors should:

a) encourage their clients to take a mix course (such as IANTD ART) with their Mod 1. As only IANTD do this, I think, it would encourage the other agencies to think about their standards, as they would lose students
b) put pressure on their agencies to allow an arrangement such as ART, or to actually extend the Mod 1 standards to include mix

One thought - there may be a safety disbenefit to including mix in Mod 1. Most people agree that narcosis is more of an issue on CCR than on SCR or OC (I can confirm that it is :-(. If all teaching is on mix, then students won't be exposed to that and won't become aware of it. If they then dive air dil when they can't get mix, they may be more prone to being caught out by narcosis.

Cheers,

Brainx3 · 22nd January 2008, 11:25

Hi,

I agree that best would be option B which you have stated, Phil. As regarding students' awareness of narcosis if used a trimix for diluent, I think that CCR diving doesn't start usually from OW (Unless now with RAID

). So I think that all divers diving CCR have good experience of narcosis effects. The point is that we don't need anything that would decrease the level of awareness while diving a machine. Any stand to change courses' standards could start from here if more instructors, IT's, and ITT's agree on this point.

So the bottom line is: Is it safer diving CCR with He on dives to 30 meters and deeper from MOD 1 ? Vote for it and make a change.

Best Regards. Wael

hillbilly · 22nd January 2008, 23:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

TTR is not listed TTM is.. TTM requires TSD, TTR requires TRD (which requires TSD or equivalent).. 50M is the MAX depth.. There is nothing that says you have to go that deep.. The class can easily be accomplished in 30m-40m depth.. Its about skills not depth...

For those WITHOUT TSD they do a combined class with TRD all on the CCR.. No need for OC.. The suggested dive progression (8 dives) really works well..

For someone with OC trimix the TRD class can be done on TMX as long as all team mebers can use the same dils and bailout gases..

I was looking at the wrong section. Just a bit confusing when they have rebreather and OC mixed in their standards. Sorry about that. Hopefully ANDI can set up the path a bit better on their site.

Do you have the "skills list" for each level handy in pdf format? So I can see what is involved and start preparing.

The reason I was pushing on the TSD was that my instructor said I had to do it "OC". Maybe this will clear it up for both of us.

Thanks for you help!

Lorne

Brainx3 · 23rd January 2008, 09:59

Hi,

I'm not really familiar with the ANDI system. But logically speaking, I think that all CCR divers should be able to purchase and use Helium with their certificates in order to minimize the narcosis effect. Unfortunately, with MOD 1 it can't be done so far, that's why changing the standards of the first course to include an introduction for Helium is important.

Best Regards. Wael

**PhilSiswick** · 23rd January 2008, 10:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Brainx3)

Hi,

I'm not really familiar with the ANDI system. But logically speaking, I think that all CCR divers should be able to purchase and use Helium with their certificates in order to minimize the narcosis effect. Unfortunately, with MOD 1 it can't be done so far, that's why changing the standards of the first course to include an introduction for Helium is important.

Best Regards. Wael

Hi Wael,

Just to clarify - it can be done with IANTD Mod 1 if you do Advanced Rec Trimix at the same time. I know it's an additional cert, but it does mean a Mod 1 diver can dive mix in accordance with their certification (Phil carefully sidesteps the use of the word 'legally'

) which is your objective.

Cheers,

Brainx3 · 23rd January 2008, 10:22

Hi,

As I mentioned earlier that almost all Tech courses can be combined or integrated. Though my point is that MOD 1 (On its own) should allow CCR divers (Who don't have any Tech certificates on OC) to be able to purchase Helium worldwide with their certificates. I personally don't like diving with doubles that's why I never thought of doing and Tech courses on OC

Best Regards. Wael

22nd January 2008, 10:55	#51 (permalink)
Brainx3 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1??? Hi, I agree with you Phil, but unfortunately diving organisations take lots of time to change or modify a course and since instructors are teaching everyday and students are diving everyday then the best thing an instructor can do is to explain to his/her student a bit more on how to stay "Safe" and one way to do that is of course by eliminating any problem factors in advance. BUT, if diving instructors and those who are involved in diving organisations on high profile would make a stand to increase the safety standard within courses then of course it would be the best solution for everyone. Best Regards. Wael __________________ The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within. *I don't take crap for an answer...*
(Offline)

22nd January 2008, 11:05	#52 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 880	Re: Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1??? Quote: (Originally Posted by Brainx3) Hi, I agree with you Phil, but unfortunately diving organisations take lots of time to change or modify a course and since instructors are teaching everyday and students are diving everyday then the best thing an instructor can do is to explain to his/her student a bit more on how to stay "Safe" and one way to do that is of course by eliminating any problem factors in advance. BUT, if diving instructors and those who are involved in diving organisations on high profile would make a stand to increase the safety standard within courses then of course it would be the best solution for everyone. Best Regards. Wael Hi Wael, I agree entirely, but it's a question of how. I think (and it is just my opinion) that instructors should: a) encourage their clients to take a mix course (such as IANTD ART) with their Mod 1. As only IANTD do this, I think, it would encourage the other agencies to think about their standards, as they would lose students b) put pressure on their agencies to allow an arrangement such as ART, or to actually extend the Mod 1 standards to include mix One thought - there may be a safety disbenefit to including mix in Mod 1. Most people agree that narcosis is more of an issue on CCR than on SCR or OC (I can confirm that it is :-(. If all teaching is on mix, then students won't be exposed to that and won't become aware of it. If they then dive air dil when they can't get mix, they may be more prone to being caught out by narcosis. Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

22nd January 2008, 11:25	#53 (permalink)
Brainx3 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1??? Hi, I agree that best would be option B which you have stated, Phil. As regarding students' awareness of narcosis if used a trimix for diluent, I think that CCR diving doesn't start usually from OW (Unless now with RAID ). So I think that all divers diving CCR have good experience of narcosis effects. The point is that we don't need anything that would decrease the level of awareness while diving a machine. Any stand to change courses' standards could start from here if more instructors, IT's, and ITT's agree on this point. So the bottom line is: Is it safer diving CCR with He on dives to 30 meters and deeper from MOD 1 ? Vote for it and make a change. Best Regards. Wael __________________ The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within. *I don't take crap for an answer...*
(Offline)

22nd January 2008, 23:11	#54 (permalink)
hillbilly New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 36	Re: Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1??? Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) TTR is not listed TTM is.. TTM requires TSD, TTR requires TRD (which requires TSD or equivalent).. 50M is the MAX depth.. There is nothing that says you have to go that deep.. The class can easily be accomplished in 30m-40m depth.. Its about skills not depth... For those WITHOUT TSD they do a combined class with TRD all on the CCR.. No need for OC.. The suggested dive progression (8 dives) really works well.. For someone with OC trimix the TRD class can be done on TMX as long as all team mebers can use the same dils and bailout gases.. I was looking at the wrong section. Just a bit confusing when they have rebreather and OC mixed in their standards. Sorry about that. Hopefully ANDI can set up the path a bit better on their site. Do you have the "skills list" for each level handy in pdf format? So I can see what is involved and start preparing. The reason I was pushing on the TSD was that my instructor said I had to do it "OC". Maybe this will clear it up for both of us. Thanks for you help! Lorne
(Offline)

23rd January 2008, 09:59	#55 (permalink)
Brainx3 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1??? Hi, I'm not really familiar with the ANDI system. But logically speaking, I think that all CCR divers should be able to purchase and use Helium with their certificates in order to minimize the narcosis effect. Unfortunately, with MOD 1 it can't be done so far, that's why changing the standards of the first course to include an introduction for Helium is important. Best Regards. Wael __________________ The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within. *I don't take crap for an answer...*
(Offline)

23rd January 2008, 10:13	#56 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 880	Re: Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1??? Quote: (Originally Posted by Brainx3) Hi, I'm not really familiar with the ANDI system. But logically speaking, I think that all CCR divers should be able to purchase and use Helium with their certificates in order to minimize the narcosis effect. Unfortunately, with MOD 1 it can't be done so far, that's why changing the standards of the first course to include an introduction for Helium is important. Best Regards. Wael Hi Wael, Just to clarify - it can be done with IANTD Mod 1 if you do Advanced Rec Trimix at the same time. I know it's an additional cert, but it does mean a Mod 1 diver can dive mix in accordance with their certification (Phil carefully sidesteps the use of the word 'legally' ) which is your objective. Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

23rd January 2008, 10:22	#57 (permalink)
Brainx3 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Normoxic Trimix in Mod 1??? Hi, As I mentioned earlier that almost all Tech courses can be combined or integrated. Though my point is that MOD 1 (On its own) should allow CCR divers (Who don't have any Tech certificates on OC) to be able to purchase Helium worldwide with their certificates. I personally don't like diving with doubles that's why I never thought of doing and Tech courses on OC Best Regards. Wael __________________ The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within. *I don't take crap for an answer...*
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode