Fancy versatile CCR gas tables

pchanning · 29th September 2005, 17:22

Hello,

I've been working on a set of CC gas tables that are more versatile than traditional tables. Traditionally tables are specific and rigid *shudders* and this rightly puts people off.

This might not be news to some folk on here, but it may be to others and certainly was to me. If its been done before, then damn I’ve wasted about 12 hours and apologise for the bandwidth. I've got a positive response so far elsewhere so here goes.

Note: If you are not concerned about tables, click away now.

They look a bit like this…

Principle:

I noticed, through discussions with friends, that 'patterns' exist within the math of tables.

What I mean is that the same 'ascent' obligation is possible for a multiple of different dives *read: depths and times* Therefore, it is possible to get 1 table to cater for say 3 or 4 different dives.

This is the basis for these tables, i.e a few tables for all my gas diving. Sound good? Read on!

The 3 slates, comprising 3 tables each, are optimised for different gases in different depth ranges; namely 45-50m, 55-65m and 70-85m. The diluents used are 20/30, 18/45 and 15/60 respectively.

If you don’t like them, fine. You can redo the table with your own gases. Also, if you don’t like the theoretical deco standpoint of V-Planner, (Version 3.16, VPM-B, +2) no problem, any programme can be used. Just sort it out yourself. The idea is what is important.

If you are interested PM me with you’re email and I’ll mail them over so you can have a fiddle (MS Excel Format).

Gas rules:

· Each of the chosen diluent gases maintain an END of 30m (ish) and diluent flushes for cell checking/ SCR bailout are optimised to 1.3 ppo2 (ish) for the target depths so, in the event of a SCR bailout, the same table can be followed.

· The Open Circuit (OC) bailout requirements are standardised around 1 x Ali 40 for the first table and 2 x Ali 80's or 2 x 10L 232’s for the deeper tables. In the event of going OC, the quantities in these size tins are on the limit (for the deeper/ longer dives) and this is based on 20Lpm for the bottom phase and 16Lpm for the deco phase. Obviously, a Co2 event should be considered very carefully when approaching the limits of these tables.

Note: 1 Ali 40 for the 50m longer dives is not enough OC. Do what you wish (bigger stage/ roll the dice for the ability to go SCR).

· The bailout gases chosen; 18/45 and 50% result in a balanced volume requirement from each tin for the deeper dives (which I like),

· 18/45 and 50% are optimised for the 55-65m range but are useable for the deeper table too, though 18/45 would be a bit warm and mucky at 85m – I’d use the inboard to get up a bit (15/60). The point is the same gas is used in the stages for the mid-range and deeper tables i.e. not having to buy different stage gas for different dives.

· 18/45 is breathable at the surface (something else I like).

Commentry and thoughts:

Because I’m mathematically challenged at 1 ata, I have on each of the tables included a diluent flush table. This shows the diluent ppo2 at various depths on the dive so current limiting and cell checks can be made with minimal cerebral input from me (very useful).

In total the 3 slates, which are worn on the arm on a flappable thingy cater for 27 dives in the 45-85m range with bottom times ranging from 16 - 55 minutes. They are based around Run Times (RT) of 1, 1.5 and 2 hours, which makes useful sense to me – for example, when having to arrange the dive time inside a tide-window or similar with the skipper.

Theoretically, it would be possible to apply this table format and create 1 big fat table for a 'dive all diluent' say 10/52 for all of your gas diving. If that floats your boat, carry on.

Obviously, if you don’t like any of my choices or standpoints then fine, my choices are strictly personal.

This goes out for information purposes and discussion only. If you spot something or have any comments I’d welcome them. This is after all why we are here.

Disclaimer: The tables are my creation for my express usage only. If you choose to use these tables and get bent, don’t come running over crying to me about it. Everyone knows you that half the shite on t’internet is bollocks anyway!

Cheers

Yeah, yeah, I know I should get out more.

Paul Channing

Scuba_Vixen · 30th September 2005, 06:45

Looks interesting.

PM sent

Darlene

Mikel-Deko · 30th September 2005, 08:16

I'm Also Interested.
Please Pm Sent
Thanks You
Mikel-deko

tomhanaway · 30th September 2005, 10:15

Paul,

Sent you a PM.
Thanks in advance,
Tom H.

Helium_diver · 30th September 2005, 11:13

Paul,

Pm sent Thanks
Helium_diver

pchanning · 1st October 2005, 13:51

Thanks to all those that have expressed an interest so far.

It has been brought to my attention that the Run Times: 1, 1.5 and 2 hours are slightly adrift.

If one follows the plan then one is in the water for longer than the specified Run Time.
This is because I rounded-up all the stop times to minutes rather than writing X seconds, the cumulative effect is more time spent in the water, which actually builds in a bit of safety.

The effect is most noticable on the deeper table. If you like me, include the ascent time to the next stop depth in the stop time, then the Run Time can be up to 8 minutes out. If you don't and you add a 10m/minute ascent rate, then the delay will be anything up to +13 (ish) minutes.

Thanks for pointing it out and keep the feedback coming. Depending on what turns up, I could collate and post the points of note.

cheers

Paul Channing

cedricverdier · 4th October 2005, 13:48

Hi,

Your tables looks quite interesting (even if my old eyes can't really read the figures on the pictures

)

It looks like my tables have some very different results even if the principles are the same.

Cheers

AD_ward9 · 7th October 2005, 15:49

Paul,

Thanks for sending the tables. Your tables contain a very good idea! With that idea, any diver can cut just a single table covering his bail out, variations in depth, and run time.

Beats my wad of tables and all the scribble on a multipage white arm slate any day of the week.

May I suggesting posting up the Excel files. I will have a shot at producing some using your idea next weekend, with the adjustments for the dive assumptions I make. Getting used to not seeing accumulated run time is the main mental change. Apart from that, they are clear, easy to read and condense.

I adding my 10% of a blob for you on another thread, so it won´t let me do it again. Perhaps a moderator can add a blob for such a worthy contribution.

Cheers

Alex

abowie · 8th October 2005, 03:09

This is fine stuff.

Any chance you could put the Excel file up on thed net somewhere to save you from having to send them individually?

pchanning · 10th October 2005, 12:16

Just mail me and i'll send them over. No probs. Besides, its nice to talk to people who are interested - generates discussion, which would be something I would miss out on otherwise!

I've also spoken to a few 'knowledgables' about putting files rather than images on the net and it might be quite difficult - at least for me anyway

warm regards

Paul Channing

29th September 2005, 17:22	#1 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Fancy versatile CCR gas tables Hello, I've been working on a set of CC gas tables that are more versatile than traditional tables. Traditionally tables are specific and rigid shudders and this rightly puts people off. This might not be news to some folk on here, but it may be to others and certainly was to me. If its been done before, then damn I’ve wasted about 12 hours and apologise for the bandwidth. I've got a positive response so far elsewhere so here goes. Note: If you are not concerned about tables, click away now. They look a bit like this… Principle: I noticed, through discussions with friends, that 'patterns' exist within the math of tables. What I mean is that the same 'ascent' obligation is possible for a multiple of different dives read: depths and times Therefore, it is possible to get 1 table to cater for say 3 or 4 different dives. This is the basis for these tables, i.e a few tables for all my gas diving. Sound good? Read on! The 3 slates, comprising 3 tables each, are optimised for different gases in different depth ranges; namely 45-50m, 55-65m and 70-85m. The diluents used are 20/30, 18/45 and 15/60 respectively. If you don’t like them, fine. You can redo the table with your own gases. Also, if you don’t like the theoretical deco standpoint of V-Planner, (Version 3.16, VPM-B, +2) no problem, any programme can be used. Just sort it out yourself. The idea is what is important. If you are interested PM me with you’re email and I’ll mail them over so you can have a fiddle (MS Excel Format). Gas rules: · Each of the chosen diluent gases maintain an END of 30m (ish) and diluent flushes for cell checking/ SCR bailout are optimised to 1.3 ppo2 (ish) for the target depths so, in the event of a SCR bailout, the same table can be followed. · The Open Circuit (OC) bailout requirements are standardised around 1 x Ali 40 for the first table and 2 x Ali 80's or 2 x 10L 232’s for the deeper tables. In the event of going OC, the quantities in these size tins are on the limit (for the deeper/ longer dives) and this is based on 20Lpm for the bottom phase and 16Lpm for the deco phase. Obviously, a Co2 event should be considered very carefully when approaching the limits of these tables. Note: 1 Ali 40 for the 50m longer dives is not enough OC. Do what you wish (bigger stage/ roll the dice for the ability to go SCR). · The bailout gases chosen; 18/45 and 50% result in a balanced volume requirement from each tin for the deeper dives (which I like), · 18/45 and 50% are optimised for the 55-65m range but are useable for the deeper table too, though 18/45 would be a bit warm and mucky at 85m – I’d use the inboard to get up a bit (15/60). The point is the same gas is used in the stages for the mid-range and deeper tables i.e. not having to buy different stage gas for different dives. · 18/45 is breathable at the surface (something else I like). Commentry and thoughts: Because I’m mathematically challenged at 1 ata, I have on each of the tables included a diluent flush table. This shows the diluent ppo2 at various depths on the dive so current limiting and cell checks can be made with minimal cerebral input from me (very useful). In total the 3 slates, which are worn on the arm on a flappable thingy cater for 27 dives in the 45-85m range with bottom times ranging from 16 - 55 minutes. They are based around Run Times (RT) of 1, 1.5 and 2 hours, which makes useful sense to me – for example, when having to arrange the dive time inside a tide-window or similar with the skipper. Theoretically, it would be possible to apply this table format and create 1 big fat table for a 'dive all diluent' say 10/52 for all of your gas diving. If that floats your boat, carry on. Obviously, if you don’t like any of my choices or standpoints then fine, my choices are strictly personal. This goes out for information purposes and discussion only. If you spot something or have any comments I’d welcome them. This is after all why we are here. Disclaimer: The tables are my creation for my express usage only. If you choose to use these tables and get bent, don’t come running over crying to me about it. Everyone knows you that half the shite on t’internet is bollocks anyway! Cheers Yeah, yeah, I know I should get out more. Paul Channing __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival.
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30th September 2005, 06:45	#2 (permalink)
Scuba_Vixen e/mCCR Dolphin Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: St. Croix USVI Posts: 557	Looks interesting. PM sent Darlene
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30th September 2005, 08:16	#3 (permalink)
Mikel-Deko Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Basque Country -Sp- Posts: 452	I'm Also Interested. Please Pm Sent Thanks You Mikel-deko
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30th September 2005, 10:15	#4 (permalink)
tomhanaway New Member Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: May 2005 Location: Boynton Beach, FL Posts: 52	Paul, Sent you a PM. Thanks in advance, Tom H.
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30th September 2005, 11:13	#5 (permalink)
Helium_diver Has anyone seen my Gerbil Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Baltimore MD USA Posts: 150	Paul, Pm sent Thanks Helium_diver __________________ "If I look unconscious I probably am " Bill Hartman
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1st October 2005, 13:51	#6 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Thanks to all those that have expressed an interest so far. It has been brought to my attention that the Run Times: 1, 1.5 and 2 hours are slightly adrift. If one follows the plan then one is in the water for longer than the specified Run Time. This is because I rounded-up all the stop times to minutes rather than writing X seconds, the cumulative effect is more time spent in the water, which actually builds in a bit of safety. The effect is most noticable on the deeper table. If you like me, include the ascent time to the next stop depth in the stop time, then the Run Time can be up to 8 minutes out. If you don't and you add a 10m/minute ascent rate, then the delay will be anything up to +13 (ish) minutes. Thanks for pointing it out and keep the feedback coming. Depending on what turns up, I could collate and post the points of note. cheers Paul Channing __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival.
(Offline)

4th October 2005, 13:48	#7 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 497	Hi, Your tables looks quite interesting (even if my old eyes can't really read the figures on the pictures ) It looks like my tables have some very different results even if the principles are the same. Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
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7th October 2005, 15:49	#8 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Paul, Thanks for sending the tables. Your tables contain a very good idea! With that idea, any diver can cut just a single table covering his bail out, variations in depth, and run time. Beats my wad of tables and all the scribble on a multipage white arm slate any day of the week. May I suggesting posting up the Excel files. I will have a shot at producing some using your idea next weekend, with the adjustments for the dive assumptions I make. Getting used to not seeing accumulated run time is the main mental change. Apart from that, they are clear, easy to read and condense. I adding my 10% of a blob for you on another thread, so it won´t let me do it again. Perhaps a moderator can add a blob for such a worthy contribution. Cheers Alex
(Offline)

8th October 2005, 03:09	#9 (permalink)
abowie Fighting Girl Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Land of Oz Posts: 574	This is fine stuff. Any chance you could put the Excel file up on thed net somewhere to save you from having to send them individually? __________________ Andrew Bowie Rebreather-friendly Buddy
(Offline)

10th October 2005, 12:16	#10 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Just mail me and i'll send them over. No probs. Besides, its nice to talk to people who are interested - generates discussion, which would be something I would miss out on otherwise! I've also spoken to a few 'knowledgables' about putting files rather than images on the net and it might be quite difficult - at least for me anyway warm regards Paul Channing __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival.
(Offline)

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