Bailout Cylinder Sizes

**Fun Under Pressure** · 11th December 2007, 18:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by louisrankin)

What is a TMX?????

Louis

Sorry i mean Trimix.

Cheers Markku

Paul T · 11th December 2007, 20:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Any dive with a bailout planned 90mins of deco i take two 7s allowing a 30SAC for the deep mix. For my diving that gets me down to 50ish m.

After that I am on a steel 10 with 18/45 in (it floats) and an Ali 80 with 50% in. Past 120min run I add a drop tank of 80% on the boat and cut some very very agresive (just in case i dont get the drop tank) tables.

I tried two steel 10s and I couldn't trim out because the 18/45 floats and the 50 sinks like a large rock. The Ali 80 with 50% in is about 1.5kg neg with a 230bar fill. The Steel 10 of 18/45 is almost neutral + the first stage

To get an Ali 80 to float the same as the 10 you have to run it at around 160bar of 50%. Thats useless for the dives i do.

I chose to run the steel 10 for the deep mix because it tolerates over blowing a lot better than the ali. My steel 10 is always at at least 250bar. You can never have too much gas

PS: I forgot to mention a steel 10 empty is neutrol so it dosent make you boyent. An ali 80 empty is very very floaty so if your emptying your deep tin and then emptying your shalow tin and they are both 2Kg+ positive,, watch out.

The DIR boys aparently send the empties up the line rather than try and carry floaty tanks.

ATB

Mark

Hi mark

any idea how steel 12's compare to 10's with those mixes ?

Paul

Mark Chase · 11th December 2007, 22:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by Paul T)

Hi mark

any idea how steel 12's compare to 10's with those mixes ?

Paul

The 18/45 Helium mix is OK in a 12 in thats its a manageable tank but its not as balanced or as easy to work with in the boat as the 10. Hence I over blow the 10 rather than use my 12. The 50% is even worse neg in the steel 12 but I haven't weighed them so I cant give the exact figures. I tried it with Faber lightweight steels. Seeing as the Ali 80 was 11.5ltrs I just used that instead.

I am getting my 12 and my 15ltrs filled with 10/70 soon and ill weigh them in fresh water to see if thats viable as deep bailout.

ATB

Mark

Gilles · 11th December 2007, 23:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by athomson)

Anyway, as I mentioned, I am doing my Mod 2 in the new year in Malin Head in Ireland and am trying to decide is it time to ditch the sevens and head for side slung tens, or should I stick with what I have and buy another seven.

Anyone got any opinions?

I'd say your getting close to getting it right with the SS 10's. I use a pair ali 80's with a Golem Armadillo.

You can sling on most anything with the Armadillo. Never used 10's or 12's before, so don't know how they'll handle empty. I send up empty 80's. The big tanks tap against the legs and calves a bit when swimming, but very much out of the way, with great streamlining. Stowing hoses is not as easy as a front-sling.

Keep your 7's for shallower dives, or other purposes. As mentioned above, assume high (40'sh) RMV on bottom.

Shawn · 12th December 2007, 01:46

I use a combination of several different tanks depending on the dive. Here is the break down;

1 steel 70 cuft - O2 clean with 100% O2 dor long deco.
1 AL 40 cuft - for 100% O2 (shorter stops)
1 AL 40 cuft - for a stop at 120' if needed
1-2 AL 80 cuft - to fill with 50% used on deco
multiple AL 80's for the different bottom mix's.

Logic:

50% of the gas carried is for me, 50% is for my dive partner. If I have to come off the loop at any time the dive is over and we turn! this ensures I can get me and my dive partner out should an emergancy arise.

I would also say that the number of tanks you take should be dictated largely by SAC rate and Deco Obligation for both you and your dive partner.

Is it a lot of gear? YES, but it sucks like hell to exit the water without your dive partner DT piss poor gas management.

I rescued a diver in Ginnie once because of this... I came around a corner and there they were putsing around with only 100 psi in their tanks...when I showed them their gauge they about freaked!!!!! So we went dead into share air mode and brought them out.

They didn't know their deco, or any hand signals to help with communication...so the fact my partner and i made them stay on the bottom a little longer to help clean them up ticked them off....in the end we got a thanks. It was a reality check if I ever saw one, and no I don't remember their names, but I bet they remember ours.

Just my two cents on the matter.

Meerveld · 23rd December 2007, 17:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Shawn)

50% of the gas carried is for me, 50% is for my dive partner. If I have to come off the loop at any time the dive is over and we turn! this ensures I can get me and my dive partner out should an emergancy arise.

I would also say that the number of tanks you take should be dictated largely by SAC rate and Deco Obligation for both you and your dive partner.

Is it a lot of gear? YES, but it sucks like hell to exit the water without your dive partner DT piss poor gas management.

I agree with this. I believe the safest way to dive is with full redundant OC bailout. Sufficient to complete all deco obligations from the worst potential failure point (usually the end of your bottom time). The size of tanks should be determined by the volume and number of different OC deco gasses needed. Which in turn should be determined by the divers SAC rate and that of his buddy. On very deep dives it may not be possible to carry a full reserve for your buddy. However, if your buddy follows the same gas policy, it will provide double redundancy between you without carry more gas than that required by the diver with the highest SAC rate.

I have just returned from diving on HMS Victoria off Lebanon with Mark Ellyatt (of SCUBA depth record fame). I did the Victoria dives OC as I have limited time on my Pelagian MCCR and did not fancy building hours at 140+ meters. Mark dived his Pelagian down to 145 meters. He had the scrubber strapped onto the back of twin 15 litre steels pumped to 250 Bar. This gave him 7,500 litres of DIL/bailout bottom gas. This combined with two large stage tanks and a small O2 tank gave him full redundant OC bailout. If you suffer a significant CCR failure only a FULL OC bailout is going to get you back to the surface alive and fit enough to do the next dive. Mark has punctured his loop twice while doing wreck penetrations. I would not want to risk my life on combining my bailout gas with that of my buddy or team to enable me to reach the surface. When the S hits the F, Sod's Law dictates they will not be close at hand or may need the gas for themselves.

I use the DeocCheck dive planning software. It enables me to switch from a CC to OC at any stage in the plan. It then recalculates deco obligations from that point based on OC gasses selected and provides the volume of gas required based on a specified SAC rate. It is also easy to model different deco mixes with specific tank sizes to minimise the number/size of tanks and deco time.

One of the previous posts said "Apparently we're "crazy" and stuck with an OC mindset" as if this were a bad thing. I consider myself to be just A DIVER, OC and CC are simply tools which I use to achieve my PRIMARY OBJECTIVE. My PRIMARY OBJECTIVE is the same for EVERY DIVE, to get myself back to the surface ALIVE AND FIT enough to do the next dive. My belief is that a CCR combined with a full redundant OC bailout is the safest option. I regularly switch from CC to OC at 6 meters to accelerate deco on pure O2 and avoid the risk on a MCCR of breathing the loop hypoxic while struggling to board a boat. I also switch to OC at the slightest hint of a problem with my CCR. Going back on the loop only when any issues are resolved. If any issues persist I turn and end the dive on OC. I know that this flies in the face of the hardcore CC crowd but I believe it is the best way of achieving my PRIMARY OBJECTIVE!

Just my 2 cents worth,

Carl

Shawn · 26th December 2007, 03:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Meerveld)

One of the previous posts said "Apparently we're "crazy" and stuck with an OC mindset" as if this were a bad thing. I consider myself to be just A DIVER, OC and CC are simply tools which I use to achieve my PRIMARY OBJECTIVE.
Just my 2 cents worth,

Carl

you hit the nail on the head!!! And in my mind neglecting this primary rule for survival is the reason so many CCR divers are found dead catagorized as "other" I don't want my dive partners or myself to added to these numbers...I can't save everyone, but I can at least save one!

Gilles · 26th December 2007, 07:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Shawn)

I use a combination of several different tanks depending on the dive. Here is the break down;

1 steel 70 cuft - O2 clean with 100% O2 dor long deco.
1 AL 40 cuft - for 100% O2 (shorter stops)
1 AL 40 cuft - for a stop at 120' if needed
1-2 AL 80 cuft - to fill with 50% used on deco
multiple AL 80's for the different bottom mix's.

Logic:

50% of the gas carried is for me, 50% is for my dive partner. If I have to come off the loop at any time the dive is over and we turn! this ensures I can get me and my dive partner out should an emergancy arise.

I would also say that the number of tanks you take should be dictated largely by SAC rate and Deco Obligation for both you and your dive partner.

Is it a lot of gear? YES, but it sucks like hell to exit the water without your dive partner DT piss poor gas management.

One should carry adequate bailout gas, but ...on the same token, one shouldn't be taking excessive amounts either. 100% redundancy is over the top IMO.

If you and your buddy(ies) are on CCR, the liklihood of both units going off at the same time is about the same as that of complications caused by carrying too much gear with you

.

I like to use the following bail out design parameters.

Plan from furthest distance and latest time from safe exit route on bottom (e.g. 10 minutes away from up line 10min before start of planned ascent)
Bottom RMV of 40 L/min (includes about ~3x excess)
Deco RMV of 20 L/min (includes ~1.8x excess)
0 conservatism on the B/O deco profile (on the premise I can pad the shallower stops depending on actual gas consumption)

Use team approach. Don't do dives that need a good team, without a good team

. Bare minimum of 1.5x gas requirement for one member of team

(or solo).

Dive Safe

gerstl_ossi · 26th December 2007, 09:05

I use 40 cuf or 7 Liter on dives with no deco and 80 cuf with TX + 40 cuf 50% Nitrox for deeper dives. In cave I place a 100% 40 Cuf in 6 meter deep. For the kind of diving I do (deep and divetime) is enough bailoutgas.

Hugh · 26th December 2007, 10:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Any dive with a bailout planned 90mins of deco i take two 7s allowing a 30SAC for the deep mix. For my diving that gets me down to 50ish m.

After that I am on a steel 10 with 18/45 in (it floats) and an Ali 80 with 50% in. Past 120min run I add a drop tank of 80% on the boat and cut some very very agresive (just in case i dont get the drop tank) tables.

I tried two steel 10s and I couldn't trim out because the 18/45 floats and the 50 sinks like a large rock. The Ali 80 with 50% in is about 1.5kg neg with a 230bar fill. The Steel 10 of 18/45 is almost neutral + the first stage

To get an Ali 80 to float the same as the 10 you have to run it at around 160bar of 50%. Thats useless for the dives i do.

I chose to run the steel 10 for the deep mix because it tolerates over blowing a lot better than the ali. My steel 10 is always at at least 250bar. You can never have too much gas

PS: I forgot to mention a steel 10 empty is neutrol so it dosent make you boyent. An ali 80 empty is very very floaty so if your emptying your deep tin and then emptying your shalow tin and they are both 2Kg+ positive,, watch out.

The DIR boys aparently send the empties up the line rather than try and carry floaty tanks.

ATB

Mark

Mark, given your stages are for bailout and are used rarely, why not put 50/25 in the 80 and pump it to 220. same as your steel 10 put 18/60 and have it neutral.

The cost is neglible if its bailout.

Hugh

11th December 2007, 18:47	#11 (permalink)
Fun Under Pressure Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 686	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by louisrankin) What is a TMX????? Louis Sorry i mean Trimix. Cheers Markku
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11th December 2007, 20:38	#12 (permalink)
Paul T New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: england Posts: 39	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Any dive with a bailout planned 90mins of deco i take two 7s allowing a 30SAC for the deep mix. For my diving that gets me down to 50ish m. After that I am on a steel 10 with 18/45 in (it floats) and an Ali 80 with 50% in. Past 120min run I add a drop tank of 80% on the boat and cut some very very agresive (just in case i dont get the drop tank) tables. I tried two steel 10s and I couldn't trim out because the 18/45 floats and the 50 sinks like a large rock. The Ali 80 with 50% in is about 1.5kg neg with a 230bar fill. The Steel 10 of 18/45 is almost neutral + the first stage To get an Ali 80 to float the same as the 10 you have to run it at around 160bar of 50%. Thats useless for the dives i do. I chose to run the steel 10 for the deep mix because it tolerates over blowing a lot better than the ali. My steel 10 is always at at least 250bar. You can never have too much gas PS: I forgot to mention a steel 10 empty is neutrol so it dosent make you boyent. An ali 80 empty is very very floaty so if your emptying your deep tin and then emptying your shalow tin and they are both 2Kg+ positive,, watch out. The DIR boys aparently send the empties up the line rather than try and carry floaty tanks. ATB Mark Hi mark any idea how steel 12's compare to 10's with those mixes ? Paul
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11th December 2007, 22:20	#13 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,693	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by Paul T) Hi mark any idea how steel 12's compare to 10's with those mixes ? Paul The 18/45 Helium mix is OK in a 12 in thats its a manageable tank but its not as balanced or as easy to work with in the boat as the 10. Hence I over blow the 10 rather than use my 12. The 50% is even worse neg in the steel 12 but I haven't weighed them so I cant give the exact figures. I tried it with Faber lightweight steels. Seeing as the Ali 80 was 11.5ltrs I just used that instead. I am getting my 12 and my 15ltrs filled with 10/70 soon and ill weigh them in fresh water to see if thats viable as deep bailout. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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11th December 2007, 23:29	#14 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by athomson) Anyway, as I mentioned, I am doing my Mod 2 in the new year in Malin Head in Ireland and am trying to decide is it time to ditch the sevens and head for side slung tens, or should I stick with what I have and buy another seven. Anyone got any opinions? I'd say your getting close to getting it right with the SS 10's. I use a pair ali 80's with a Golem Armadillo. You can sling on most anything with the Armadillo. Never used 10's or 12's before, so don't know how they'll handle empty. I send up empty 80's. The big tanks tap against the legs and calves a bit when swimming, but very much out of the way, with great streamlining. Stowing hoses is not as easy as a front-sling. Keep your 7's for shallower dives, or other purposes. As mentioned above, assume high (40'sh) RMV on bottom. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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12th December 2007, 01:46	#15 (permalink)
Shawn Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kansas City Kansas Posts: 142	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes I use a combination of several different tanks depending on the dive. Here is the break down; 1 steel 70 cuft - O2 clean with 100% O2 dor long deco. 1 AL 40 cuft - for 100% O2 (shorter stops) 1 AL 40 cuft - for a stop at 120' if needed 1-2 AL 80 cuft - to fill with 50% used on deco multiple AL 80's for the different bottom mix's. Logic: 50% of the gas carried is for me, 50% is for my dive partner. If I have to come off the loop at any time the dive is over and we turn! this ensures I can get me and my dive partner out should an emergancy arise. I would also say that the number of tanks you take should be dictated largely by SAC rate and Deco Obligation for both you and your dive partner. Is it a lot of gear? YES, but it sucks like hell to exit the water without your dive partner DT piss poor gas management. I rescued a diver in Ginnie once because of this... I came around a corner and there they were putsing around with only 100 psi in their tanks...when I showed them their gauge they about freaked!!!!! So we went dead into share air mode and brought them out. They didn't know their deco, or any hand signals to help with communication...so the fact my partner and i made them stay on the bottom a little longer to help clean them up ticked them off....in the end we got a thanks. It was a reality check if I ever saw one, and no I don't remember their names, but I bet they remember ours. Just my two cents on the matter. __________________ WWW.DiveOne.net
(Offline)

23rd December 2007, 17:41	#16 (permalink)
Meerveld Aviator, diver & sailor Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Pelagian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Koh Samui, Thailand Posts: 30	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by Shawn) 50% of the gas carried is for me, 50% is for my dive partner. If I have to come off the loop at any time the dive is over and we turn! this ensures I can get me and my dive partner out should an emergancy arise. I would also say that the number of tanks you take should be dictated largely by SAC rate and Deco Obligation for both you and your dive partner. Is it a lot of gear? YES, but it sucks like hell to exit the water without your dive partner DT piss poor gas management. I agree with this. I believe the safest way to dive is with full redundant OC bailout. Sufficient to complete all deco obligations from the worst potential failure point (usually the end of your bottom time). The size of tanks should be determined by the volume and number of different OC deco gasses needed. Which in turn should be determined by the divers SAC rate and that of his buddy. On very deep dives it may not be possible to carry a full reserve for your buddy. However, if your buddy follows the same gas policy, it will provide double redundancy between you without carry more gas than that required by the diver with the highest SAC rate. I have just returned from diving on HMS Victoria off Lebanon with Mark Ellyatt (of SCUBA depth record fame). I did the Victoria dives OC as I have limited time on my Pelagian MCCR and did not fancy building hours at 140+ meters. Mark dived his Pelagian down to 145 meters. He had the scrubber strapped onto the back of twin 15 litre steels pumped to 250 Bar. This gave him 7,500 litres of DIL/bailout bottom gas. This combined with two large stage tanks and a small O2 tank gave him full redundant OC bailout. If you suffer a significant CCR failure only a FULL OC bailout is going to get you back to the surface alive and fit enough to do the next dive. Mark has punctured his loop twice while doing wreck penetrations. I would not want to risk my life on combining my bailout gas with that of my buddy or team to enable me to reach the surface. When the S hits the F, Sod's Law dictates they will not be close at hand or may need the gas for themselves. I use the DeocCheck dive planning software. It enables me to switch from a CC to OC at any stage in the plan. It then recalculates deco obligations from that point based on OC gasses selected and provides the volume of gas required based on a specified SAC rate. It is also easy to model different deco mixes with specific tank sizes to minimise the number/size of tanks and deco time. One of the previous posts said "Apparently we're "crazy" and stuck with an OC mindset" as if this were a bad thing. I consider myself to be just A DIVER, OC and CC are simply tools which I use to achieve my PRIMARY OBJECTIVE. My PRIMARY OBJECTIVE is the same for EVERY DIVE, to get myself back to the surface ALIVE AND FIT enough to do the next dive. My belief is that a CCR combined with a full redundant OC bailout is the safest option. I regularly switch from CC to OC at 6 meters to accelerate deco on pure O2 and avoid the risk on a MCCR of breathing the loop hypoxic while struggling to board a boat. I also switch to OC at the slightest hint of a problem with my CCR. Going back on the loop only when any issues are resolved. If any issues persist I turn and end the dive on OC. I know that this flies in the face of the hardcore CC crowd but I believe it is the best way of achieving my PRIMARY OBJECTIVE! Just my 2 cents worth, Carl __________________ We do not inherit the earth from our parents; we steal it from our children ~ based on a Native American proverb
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26th December 2007, 03:07	#17 (permalink)
Shawn Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kansas City Kansas Posts: 142	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by Meerveld) One of the previous posts said "Apparently we're "crazy" and stuck with an OC mindset" as if this were a bad thing. I consider myself to be just A DIVER, OC and CC are simply tools which I use to achieve my PRIMARY OBJECTIVE. Just my 2 cents worth, Carl you hit the nail on the head!!! And in my mind neglecting this primary rule for survival is the reason so many CCR divers are found dead catagorized as "other" I don't want my dive partners or myself to added to these numbers...I can't save everyone, but I can at least save one! __________________ WWW.DiveOne.net
(Offline)

26th December 2007, 07:54	#18 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by Shawn) I use a combination of several different tanks depending on the dive. Here is the break down; 1 steel 70 cuft - O2 clean with 100% O2 dor long deco. 1 AL 40 cuft - for 100% O2 (shorter stops) 1 AL 40 cuft - for a stop at 120' if needed 1-2 AL 80 cuft - to fill with 50% used on deco multiple AL 80's for the different bottom mix's. Logic: 50% of the gas carried is for me, 50% is for my dive partner. If I have to come off the loop at any time the dive is over and we turn! this ensures I can get me and my dive partner out should an emergancy arise. I would also say that the number of tanks you take should be dictated largely by SAC rate and Deco Obligation for both you and your dive partner. Is it a lot of gear? YES, but it sucks like hell to exit the water without your dive partner DT piss poor gas management. One should carry adequate bailout gas, but ...on the same token, one shouldn't be taking excessive amounts either. 100% redundancy is over the top IMO. If you and your buddy(ies) are on CCR, the liklihood of both units going off at the same time is about the same as that of complications caused by carrying too much gear with you . I like to use the following bail out design parameters. Plan from furthest distance and latest time from safe exit route on bottom (e.g. 10 minutes away from up line 10min before start of planned ascent) Bottom RMV of 40 L/min (includes about ~3x excess) Deco RMV of 20 L/min (includes ~1.8x excess) 0 conservatism on the B/O deco profile (on the premise I can pad the shallower stops depending on actual gas consumption) Use team approach. Don't do dives that need a good team, without a good team . Bare minimum of 1.5x gas requirement for one member of team (or solo). Dive Safe __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 26th December 2007 at 08:01.
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26th December 2007, 09:05	#19 (permalink)
gerstl_ossi Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 334	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes I use 40 cuf or 7 Liter on dives with no deco and 80 cuf with TX + 40 cuf 50% Nitrox for deeper dives. In cave I place a 100% 40 Cuf in 6 meter deep. For the kind of diving I do (deep and divetime) is enough bailoutgas.
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26th December 2007, 10:38	#20 (permalink)
Hugh New Member Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 30	Re: Bailout Cylinder Sizes Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Any dive with a bailout planned 90mins of deco i take two 7s allowing a 30SAC for the deep mix. For my diving that gets me down to 50ish m. After that I am on a steel 10 with 18/45 in (it floats) and an Ali 80 with 50% in. Past 120min run I add a drop tank of 80% on the boat and cut some very very agresive (just in case i dont get the drop tank) tables. I tried two steel 10s and I couldn't trim out because the 18/45 floats and the 50 sinks like a large rock. The Ali 80 with 50% in is about 1.5kg neg with a 230bar fill. The Steel 10 of 18/45 is almost neutral + the first stage To get an Ali 80 to float the same as the 10 you have to run it at around 160bar of 50%. Thats useless for the dives i do. I chose to run the steel 10 for the deep mix because it tolerates over blowing a lot better than the ali. My steel 10 is always at at least 250bar. You can never have too much gas PS: I forgot to mention a steel 10 empty is neutrol so it dosent make you boyent. An ali 80 empty is very very floaty so if your emptying your deep tin and then emptying your shalow tin and they are both 2Kg+ positive,, watch out. The DIR boys aparently send the empties up the line rather than try and carry floaty tanks. ATB Mark Mark, given your stages are for bailout and are used rarely, why not put 50/25 in the 80 and pump it to 220. same as your steel 10 put 18/60 and have it neutral. The cost is neglible if its bailout. Hugh
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