deco plan when running semiclosed

**Steve** · 14th June 2007, 12:33

Loose the chip Mike, it is really tired.

For what it is worth; I didn't contradict you in any way, answered your questions and yet you feel the need to try to cause conflict and deride others input. That is a shame as you have much to offer but seem to rather argue rather than discuss.

For someone who revels in self promotion of your purported skill and knowledge level, you really should be able to open your mind and learn sometimes. Lots of people on this board have a world more skill and experience than you and if you bothered to listen rather than tell everyone how it is you may not have to reinvent the wheel.

Why I'm typing this I don't know; you will think I'm only talking about me and just stoop to your standard name calling rather than taking the hit and seeing that I was just trying to explain something to you and you yet again responded in an offside way......you invented all of this didn't you?

Drmike · 14th June 2007, 12:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Loose the chip Mike, it is really tired.

no chip here

Quote:

For what it is worth; I didn't contradict you in any way, answered your questions and yet you feel the need to try to cause conflict and deride others input. That is a shame as you have much to offer but seem to rather argue rather than discuss.

yeh yeh yeh - Loose the chip Steve its really tired. I only restated my comments and gave back to you the same shit you tried (and failed) to give to me (mod 1)

Quote:

For someone who revels in self promotion

this is you not causing conflict and derision?

Quote:

of your purported

more non conflict?

Quote:

skill and knowledge level, you really should be able to open your mind and learn sometimes.

why are you making this personal?

Quote:

Lots of people on this board have a world more skill and experience than you and if you bothered to listen rather than tell everyone how it is you may not have to reinvent the wheel.

what has anyones skill and experience got to do with the points I made that a) SCR is part of standards and b) my opinion is my opinion

Unlike you I never made this personal I just made some factual statements regarding standards and my opinion regarding training - Dont see what thats got to do with chips, your rant, self promition or the price of bananas.

Quote:

Why I'm typing this I don't know;

I do but if i write it here Ill get banned again

Quote:

you will think I'm only talking about me and just stoop to your standard name calling

yup - see above

Quote:

rather than taking the hit and seeing that I was just trying to explain something to you and you yet again responded in an offside way......you invented all of this didn't you?

Yeh sure nothing in your above post is offside - and one question;;; Just what the hell are you trying to 'teach' me and what the hell has anything got to do with what I posted.

argue against the facts I posted and discuss my opinions but keep the bs out of it ok?

I stated my opinion -
I stated facts regarding training standards

You cant argue my opinion - so shut up
and you cant refute the facts regarding training standards

so whats up?

Oh - was it because Leon was mentioned!!! Oh dear maybe you need to loose that Meg(a) chip on your shoulders lol

Drmike · 14th June 2007, 13:01

lets see if we can spot me causing conflict and deriding others in that post shall we?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

its covered in Air dil course. Its part of the standards. Leon or anyone else certfying from those agencies should be teaching it asits part of the standards. statement of fact
I know never said it wasnt I just said (correctly) that SCR is part of the course standards. statement of fact

Air dil as you call it was known before and quite universally as MOD1 (for YBOD divers - years before the 1st Meg was built or dived)) but I digress statement of fact and in reply to your attempt to have a dig

what point are you making here? SCR is taught - thats all I said. statement of fact

so you dont welcome thoughts from me on this matter statement of fact lol! Im gutted!

You make your own tables - jeez its not rocket science. ok that was a small dig

But anyway after your post Im interested to know how loop volume effects O2 metabolism rates......not something ive considered before but i generally run min loop no matter what sixe rebreather im using..

sorry must have missed my self promoting, conflict causing, deriding comments in the above!

finbar.taylor · 14th June 2007, 13:05

I did my MOD1 with a very well respected instructor Martin Robson and yes we did cover SCR but only how to do it not how to calculate deco with it.

Sorry to disagree Mike but I don't think you find calculating SCR deco is in the mod 1 standards of any agency.

Fin

Drmike · 14th June 2007, 13:05

lets see if we can spot you causing conflict in your post shall we?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Loose the chip Mike, it is really tired.

ouch

For what it is worth; I didn't contradict you in any way, answered your questions and yet you feel the need to try to cause conflict and deride others input. That is a shame as you have much to offer but seem to rather argue rather than discuss.

For someone who revels in self promotion of your purported skill and knowledge level, you really should be able to open your mind and learn sometimes. Lots of people on this board have a world more skill and experience than you and if you bothered to listen rather than tell everyone how it is you may not have to reinvent the wheel. nice!

Why I'm typing this I don't know; you will think I'm only talking about me and just stoop to your standard name calling rather than taking the hit and seeing that I was just trying to explain something to you and you yet again responded in an offside way......you invented all of this didn't you?

nice. Funny - your post is rull of conflict and deriding unlike mine...

And one more time...just what is it that I have said that is factually incorrect in this post? What is it that I need to 'learn' ? Im all ears - do share

Is it the proven fact that sensors can fall apart despite your previous conflicting deriding assertion that they couldnt - opps sorry wrong thread.

Drmike · 14th June 2007, 13:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor)

I did my MOD1 with a very well respected instructor Martin Robson and yes we did cover SCR but only how to do it not how to calculate deco with it.

Sorry to disagree Mike but I don't think you find calculating SCR deco is in the mod 1 standards of any agency.

Fin

SCR as a bailout technique is taught and is part of the standards. The question I guess is is the method of how to determine SCR deco part of the standards?

if it isnt then IMO it should be - And if your right then thanks for correcting me without bringing conflict and deriding me

finbar.taylor · 14th June 2007, 13:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

if it isnt then IMO it should be - And if your right then thanks for correcting me without bringing conflict and deriding me

Mike
I'll agree it should be and there's no point in conflict get's people no where and wastes every one's time.

It also was not on my mod2 course but I think that's more the circumstances I did the course in than any thing else

what is the chance of a quick synopsis on how you'd calculate it?

My understanding is it'd be calculating a % mix below your dil but how to calculate that eludes me.

Fin

Drmike · 14th June 2007, 13:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor)

Mike
I'll agree it should be and there's no point in conflict get's people no where and wastes every one's time.

It also was not on my mod2 course but I think that's more the circumstances I did the course in than any thing else

what is the chance of a quick synopsis on how you'd calculate it?

My understanding is it'd be calculating a % mix below your dil but how to calculate that eludes me.

Fin

I posted something on that in previous post. I know there are others on here with way more experience and skill than me but until they come along ill just have to fill in (if thats Ok with steve)

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Switch vr3 to OC mode and knock back the FO2 a tad. How much to knock it back depends largely on freq of venting you use and can be determined experimentally with a working ppo2 display

At const depth I run semiclosed with O2 turned off/isolated whatever and look at what the ppo2 stabalises at for a give number of breaths/vent. From this displayed ppo2 I calculate the effective FO2 in the loop and thats what Id use in my deco calcs in the future for the same vent rate if I bailed with that same dil/off board OC FO2 gas. Of course its not possible to determine the effective FO2 drop at all depths and all fFO2 eed gases but you dont have to - you just do enough tests to build up a general idea as to roughly how much an fo2 drop you can expect then apply a more conservative drop when you do deco calcs.

So when you switch VR3 to OC bail mode you make sure the comps FO2 bail gas/dil is reduced by the amount you decide is typical fo2 drop. You can reduce more than you need to to make it more conservative/cover any inaccuracys in assumed FO2 drop

Hope that helps

FWIW I did this on my Mod1, 2 and 3 courses - but as you say maybe thats not typical

OceanOpportunity · 14th June 2007, 13:34

back to the original question...

if we're talking about diving at the "mod 1" level and you are bailing to SCR mode for sake of bailing out of the dive, more than likely you are on your way to the surface (i.e. not exiting a cave, wreck, or have another virtual ceiling). In this case, you are simply using SCR as a means to reach the surface, period, and very little, IF ANY actual deco obligation should have been occured. If I recall in MOD 1, we're talking less than 10 minutes incurred deco obligation, so make your way to 20feet, switch to your onboard OC, and burn out the cylinder.

more advanced dives with ceilings will require a more thought out bailout scenario, but I hardly think this is relevant to the original question.

Drmike · 14th June 2007, 13:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by OceanOpportunity)

back to the original question...

if we're talking about diving at the "mod 1" level and you are bailing to SCR mode for sake of bailing out of the dive, more than likely you are on your way to the surface (i.e. not exiting a cave, wreck, or have another virtual ceiling). In this case, you are simply using SCR as a means to reach the surface, period, and very little, IF ANY actual deco obligation should have been occured. If I recall in MOD 1, we're talking less than 10 minutes incurred deco obligation, so make your way to 20feet, switch to your onboard OC, and burn out the cylinder.

more advanced dives with ceilings will require a more thought out bailout scenario, but I hardly think this is relevant to the original question.

of course your likely right re non deco dives need for scr deco calcs but where in the original question was it stated he wasnt talking about deco dives? Indeed the title of the thread is 'Deco plan when running semiclosed'

14th June 2007, 12:33	#11 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,117	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed Loose the chip Mike, it is really tired. For what it is worth; I didn't contradict you in any way, answered your questions and yet you feel the need to try to cause conflict and deride others input. That is a shame as you have much to offer but seem to rather argue rather than discuss. For someone who revels in self promotion of your purported skill and knowledge level, you really should be able to open your mind and learn sometimes. Lots of people on this board have a world more skill and experience than you and if you bothered to listen rather than tell everyone how it is you may not have to reinvent the wheel. Why I'm typing this I don't know; you will think I'm only talking about me and just stoop to your standard name calling rather than taking the hit and seeing that I was just trying to explain something to you and you yet again responded in an offside way......you invented all of this didn't you? __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
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14th June 2007, 12:55	#12 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Loose the chip Mike, it is really tired. no chip here Quote: For what it is worth; I didn't contradict you in any way, answered your questions and yet you feel the need to try to cause conflict and deride others input. That is a shame as you have much to offer but seem to rather argue rather than discuss. yeh yeh yeh - Loose the chip Steve its really tired. I only restated my comments and gave back to you the same shit you tried (and failed) to give to me (mod 1) Quote: For someone who revels in self promotion this is you not causing conflict and derision? Quote: of your purported more non conflict? Quote: skill and knowledge level, you really should be able to open your mind and learn sometimes. why are you making this personal? Quote: Lots of people on this board have a world more skill and experience than you and if you bothered to listen rather than tell everyone how it is you may not have to reinvent the wheel. what has anyones skill and experience got to do with the points I made that a) SCR is part of standards and b) my opinion is my opinion Unlike you I never made this personal I just made some factual statements regarding standards and my opinion regarding training - Dont see what thats got to do with chips, your rant, self promition or the price of bananas. Quote: Why I'm typing this I don't know; I do but if i write it here Ill get banned again Quote: you will think I'm only talking about me and just stoop to your standard name calling yup - see above Quote: rather than taking the hit and seeing that I was just trying to explain something to you and you yet again responded in an offside way......you invented all of this didn't you? Yeh sure nothing in your above post is offside - and one question;;; Just what the hell are you trying to 'teach' me and what the hell has anything got to do with what I posted. argue against the facts I posted and discuss my opinions but keep the bs out of it ok? I stated my opinion - I stated facts regarding training standards You cant argue my opinion - so shut up and you cant refute the facts regarding training standards so whats up? Oh - was it because Leon was mentioned!!! Oh dear maybe you need to loose that Meg(a) chip on your shoulders lol __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 14th June 2007 at 14:56.
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14th June 2007, 13:01	#13 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed lets see if we can spot me causing conflict and deriding others in that post shall we? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) its covered in Air dil course. Its part of the standards. Leon or anyone else certfying from those agencies should be teaching it asits part of the standards. statement of fact I know never said it wasnt I just said (correctly) that SCR is part of the course standards. statement of fact Air dil as you call it was known before and quite universally as MOD1 (for YBOD divers - years before the 1st Meg was built or dived)) but I digress statement of fact and in reply to your attempt to have a dig what point are you making here? SCR is taught - thats all I said. statement of fact so you dont welcome thoughts from me on this matter statement of fact lol! Im gutted! You make your own tables - jeez its not rocket science. ok that was a small dig But anyway after your post Im interested to know how loop volume effects O2 metabolism rates......not something ive considered before but i generally run min loop no matter what sixe rebreather im using.. sorry must have missed my self promoting, conflict causing, deriding comments in the above! __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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14th June 2007, 13:05	#14 (permalink)
finbar.taylor Rebreather World Writer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: UK, SE Posts: 104	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed I did my MOD1 with a very well respected instructor Martin Robson and yes we did cover SCR but only how to do it not how to calculate deco with it. Sorry to disagree Mike but I don't think you find calculating SCR deco is in the mod 1 standards of any agency. Fin
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14th June 2007, 13:05	#15 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed lets see if we can spot you causing conflict in your post shall we? Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Loose the chip Mike, it is really tired. ouch For what it is worth; I didn't contradict you in any way, answered your questions and yet you feel the need to try to cause conflict and deride others input. That is a shame as you have much to offer but seem to rather argue rather than discuss. For someone who revels in self promotion of your purported skill and knowledge level, you really should be able to open your mind and learn sometimes. Lots of people on this board have a world more skill and experience than you and if you bothered to listen rather than tell everyone how it is you may not have to reinvent the wheel. nice! Why I'm typing this I don't know; you will think I'm only talking about me and just stoop to your standard name calling rather than taking the hit and seeing that I was just trying to explain something to you and you yet again responded in an offside way......you invented all of this didn't you? nice. Funny - your post is rull of conflict and deriding unlike mine... And one more time...just what is it that I have said that is factually incorrect in this post? What is it that I need to 'learn' ? Im all ears - do share Is it the proven fact that sensors can fall apart despite your previous conflicting deriding assertion that they couldnt - opps sorry wrong thread. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 14th June 2007 at 13:10.
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14th June 2007, 13:08	#16 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor) I did my MOD1 with a very well respected instructor Martin Robson and yes we did cover SCR but only how to do it not how to calculate deco with it. Sorry to disagree Mike but I don't think you find calculating SCR deco is in the mod 1 standards of any agency. Fin SCR as a bailout technique is taught and is part of the standards. The question I guess is is the method of how to determine SCR deco part of the standards? if it isnt then IMO it should be - And if your right then thanks for correcting me without bringing conflict and deriding me __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 14th June 2007 at 13:35. Reason: added clarification
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14th June 2007, 13:13	#17 (permalink)
finbar.taylor Rebreather World Writer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: UK, SE Posts: 104	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) if it isnt then IMO it should be - And if your right then thanks for correcting me without bringing conflict and deriding me Mike I'll agree it should be and there's no point in conflict get's people no where and wastes every one's time. It also was not on my mod2 course but I think that's more the circumstances I did the course in than any thing else what is the chance of a quick synopsis on how you'd calculate it? My understanding is it'd be calculating a % mix below your dil but how to calculate that eludes me. Fin
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14th June 2007, 13:19	#18 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed Quote: (Originally Posted by finbar.taylor) Mike I'll agree it should be and there's no point in conflict get's people no where and wastes every one's time. It also was not on my mod2 course but I think that's more the circumstances I did the course in than any thing else what is the chance of a quick synopsis on how you'd calculate it? My understanding is it'd be calculating a % mix below your dil but how to calculate that eludes me. Fin I posted something on that in previous post. I know there are others on here with way more experience and skill than me but until they come along ill just have to fill in (if thats Ok with steve) Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Switch vr3 to OC mode and knock back the FO2 a tad. How much to knock it back depends largely on freq of venting you use and can be determined experimentally with a working ppo2 display At const depth I run semiclosed with O2 turned off/isolated whatever and look at what the ppo2 stabalises at for a give number of breaths/vent. From this displayed ppo2 I calculate the effective FO2 in the loop and thats what Id use in my deco calcs in the future for the same vent rate if I bailed with that same dil/off board OC FO2 gas. Of course its not possible to determine the effective FO2 drop at all depths and all fFO2 eed gases but you dont have to - you just do enough tests to build up a general idea as to roughly how much an fo2 drop you can expect then apply a more conservative drop when you do deco calcs. So when you switch VR3 to OC bail mode you make sure the comps FO2 bail gas/dil is reduced by the amount you decide is typical fo2 drop. You can reduce more than you need to to make it more conservative/cover any inaccuracys in assumed FO2 drop Hope that helps FWIW I did this on my Mod1, 2 and 3 courses - but as you say maybe thats not typical __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 14th June 2007 at 13:31.
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14th June 2007, 13:34	#19 (permalink)
OceanOpportunity for a world of water Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Providence, RI USA Posts: 544	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed back to the original question... if we're talking about diving at the "mod 1" level and you are bailing to SCR mode for sake of bailing out of the dive, more than likely you are on your way to the surface (i.e. not exiting a cave, wreck, or have another virtual ceiling). In this case, you are simply using SCR as a means to reach the surface, period, and very little, IF ANY actual deco obligation should have been occured. If I recall in MOD 1, we're talking less than 10 minutes incurred deco obligation, so make your way to 20feet, switch to your onboard OC, and burn out the cylinder. more advanced dives with ceilings will require a more thought out bailout scenario, but I hardly think this is relevant to the original question. __________________ Michael Lombardi Oceans of Opportunity www.oceanopportunity.com Elected Director, Society for Human Performance in Extreme Environments MN'07, The Explorers Club Project Manager, Diving a Dream
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14th June 2007, 13:39	#20 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: deco plan when running semiclosed Quote: (Originally Posted by OceanOpportunity) back to the original question... if we're talking about diving at the "mod 1" level and you are bailing to SCR mode for sake of bailing out of the dive, more than likely you are on your way to the surface (i.e. not exiting a cave, wreck, or have another virtual ceiling). In this case, you are simply using SCR as a means to reach the surface, period, and very little, IF ANY actual deco obligation should have been occured. If I recall in MOD 1, we're talking less than 10 minutes incurred deco obligation, so make your way to 20feet, switch to your onboard OC, and burn out the cylinder. more advanced dives with ceilings will require a more thought out bailout scenario, but I hardly think this is relevant to the original question. of course your likely right re non deco dives need for scr deco calcs but where in the original question was it stated he wasnt talking about deco dives? Indeed the title of the thread is 'Deco plan when running semiclosed' __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 14th June 2007 at 13:42.
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