Maximator Booster Pump

Northern Monkey · 9th January 2006, 21:17

Do the International Hydraulic Booster and the Jetsam/Kiss boosters have CE approval?

If you are using the above in any commercial environment would your insurance be vaild.

I take it that you dive a CE approved rebreather so your life insurance is valid, but please note a couple of those have caught fire in the past.

For your piece of mind buy a Haskel or a Maximator DLE 30 - 1, alternatively you could wait until the smaller units have CE approval.

Northern Monkey · 9th January 2006, 21:25

FYI

Haskel Oxygen Boosters do explode, contamination is the major issue.

http://www.psc.ca/safety_info/safety...92/sa92_08.htm

iain-hsm · 9th January 2006, 22:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Northern Monkey)

Do the International Hydraulic Booster and the Jetsam/Kiss boosters have CE approval? If you are using the above in any commercial environment would your insurance be vaild.
For your piece of mind buy a Haskel or a Maximator DLE 30 - 1, alternatively you could wait until the smaller units have CE approval.

Mark
You seem unable to answer the direct questions on this Maximator pump being suitable for oxygen. However I am quite happy to answer yours:

1. International and Jetsam have no legal requirement or need to CE mark or test there products to CE. Because they are outside the EU. However if they or you or anyone else were to import these items for resale then they or the importer are required under EU law to satify CE directives.

Maximator in Germany and yourself are not out side the EU therefore you have to subject the product to CE. You dont have a choice. These are not my rules as I'm sure you understand. Maximator in Germany do not certify this product for oxygen How can you?

2. As for your submission on the Haskel oxygen fire just read the prevension statement. ENSURE WORKERS ARE TRAINED AND CERTIFIED BEFORE THEY REPAIR PUMPS.

Any untrained monkey can cause the fire, but the question to you was as the reseller of this product have you tested this pump you are selling for oxygen and is it CE certifed for oxygen and if so to what presuure and if not why not? Iain Middlebrook.

AD_ward9 · 14th January 2006, 21:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by iain-hsm)

Any untrained monkey can cause the fire, but the question to you was as the reseller of this product have you tested this pump you are selling for oxygen and is it CE certifed for oxygen and if so to what presuure and if not why not? Iain Middlebrook.

I am very glad you are on this thread, Iain. I was about to give you a ring, as we need a new booster pump and are in two minds whether to buy one from you or build one.

Boosters look really simple, the sort of thing an engineer can do in a week, and none that I can find really seem great for the job. I am tempted to make one. Is there really one around that is cheaper and works?

This is my take:
1. Haskels: the business, but big, overpriced for what they are, greedy on air and too low pressure (we want to pump He to 350 bar and O2 to 300 bar). O2 AGD-30 is £3500 or so.
2. Hydraulic International's http://www.golemgear.com/pc-151-15-c...r-booster.aspx
does not do the pressure. Cheap at $1100. Not CE marked.
3. MPS Sold by http://www.divelife.co.uk/ and in the article
MPS look smart, but expensive for what they are, and if they cannot design their web site on http://www.mpstechnology.com/contatti.html to work properly, what are their pumps like? $2800 to $3600 depending on model. http://www.divertec.net/Product.php?prodId=810&catId=18 describes their professional product. Materials look like Aluminium, not obviously O2 compatible.
3. Jetsam does not do the pressure, not CE marked, too many reports of failures after 6 months or a year.
4. Maximator described on http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...html#post22772 and this thread: too low pressure, a hydraulic pump converted to gas use, not O2 compatible. Just not worth the risk whatever the price.

Principle is pretty simple. Making the cylinder and piston from Monel, with a PTFE seal, solves O2 problems. Thickness does not have to be much for even 600 bar pumping: below is a quick stress check we did to see what sort of thickness Monel would have to be for this and the tube below is just 8mm thick walls. This would give a really small portable product.

Is there a simple solution about, or do we have to go and make our own?

Cheers
Alex

Drmike · 14th January 2006, 23:11

Alex, not trying to be funny but I hope you know what you are doing. Making 300bar gas boosters is not something an amateur can wing like making some electronics or other bit of kit - having seen first hand pressure vessels failing and the result I know how dangerous they can be - especially when gas is the working medium. This is serious stuff, serious engineering making some colourful pics doesnt cut it on this one. You may know what your doing, I dont know, but if you do its probably good to indicate that so others with access to a CAD package dont think 'Oh I reckon I can make one of those, sounds easy' It is until it fails and kills people. I see people all the time use FE packages and believing the results 100% when they dont put in the right info into the model - rubbish in - rubbish out. But they get a nice pic so they think all is ok. Like I said you may know what your doing, not trying to be funny.

Im curious about that pic - is this the drive cylinder? are you thinking of making a rounded end vessel? How will you get the gas in/out? Shouldnt that be in the model. In the pic you put up the open end is modelled unrestrained

As you may know for thin or thick walled tubes standard formula exists - no need to model

PeteS · 15th January 2006, 04:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

1. Haskels: the business, but big, overpriced for what they are, greedy on air and too low pressure (we want to pump He to 350 bar and O2 to 300 bar). O2 AGD-30 is £3500 or so.

You are quoting the spec from one haskel out of dozens. My Haskel does 600 bar without any problems whatsoever......

And as for overpriced, well you should take a Haskel apart and then any of the other units you quoted. You'll see a major difference in build quality.

AD_ward9 · 16th January 2006, 10:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Alex, not trying to be funny but I hope you know what you are doing. Making 300bar gas boosters is not something an amateur can wing like making some electronics or other bit of kit - having seen first hand pressure vessels failing and the result I know how dangerous they can be - especially when gas is the working medium. This is serious stuff, serious engineering making some colourful pics doesnt cut it on this one. You may know what your doing, I dont know, but if you do its probably good to indicate that so others with access to a CAD package dont think 'Oh I reckon I can make one of those, sounds easy' It is until it fails and kills people. I see people all the time use FE packages and believing the results 100% when they dont put in the right info into the model - rubbish in - rubbish out. But they get a nice pic so they think all is ok. Like I said you may know what your doing, not trying to be funny.

Im curious about that pic - is this the drive cylinder? are you thinking of making a rounded end vessel? How will you get the gas in/out? Shouldnt that be in the model. In the pic you put up the open end is modelled unrestrained

As you may know for thin or thick walled tubes standard formula exists - no need to model

I will explain. The drive cylinder is easy: we just run it off a first stage or compressor so it always runs with 6 to 15 bar intermediate pressure, depending on the stage. The hard bit on a booster is the high pressure cylinder. This is a small bore cylinder with two one way valves on it. The one way valves means there is a thread on a high pressure cylinder, hence the rounded end.

The first question we had was whether Monel can be used for the high pressure cylinder. It seems that at pressure materials fail because the stress inside is beyond the yield limits for the material, and a crack starts. It then travels through the material to the outside, and the whole thing fails. Making the material thicker does not help: it just delays the failure. We know Aluminium cannot withstand 600 bar, no matter how thick, for this diameter, so checked with monel and steel. The answer is monel can be used up to 600 bar for the diameter involved here (the wall thickness should be 10mm). We also wanted to know how big the thread would have to be. The idea would be to put the high pressure cylinder in a water jacket, which is pumped by the main cylinder (ie main cylinder drives water to cool the secondary cylinder, and drives the secondary cylinder). Main cylinder is low pressure, secondary cylinder is high pressure.

We have the same geometry for something else we are doing, so checking this takes minutes.

On use of standard formula, the standard forumula do not handle changes in geometry, so we use a computer: it is quick and easy. The geometry gets quite complex around the one way valves.

We use CAD all the time. I agree if it is misused, it has great potential for producing wrong results. Rubbish in, lots of rubbish out.

Far prefer to buy a unit. We have other things to do with our time. My post was deliberately a bit provocative, to see what comes out, as we need a unit but do not see any wonderful products out there that fit the bill perfectly. The MDS unit is looking quite interesting, and at the moment seems the best fit, and we may buy one of those then check its safety and mod if necessary.

Cheers,
Alex

NB: I should mention that the application is reliability testing of rebreather components, not filling cylinders to dive from. We want to test a 200 bar O2 injector we designed using 300 bar with metal dust in the feed pipe, to give some comfort as to its safety, and for testing of electronic components for reliability in a He environment we need 350 bar (or wait longer).

AD_ward9 · 16th January 2006, 10:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS)

You are quoting the spec from one haskel out of dozens. My Haskel does 600 bar without any problems whatsoever......

And as for overpriced, well you should take a Haskel apart and then any of the other units you quoted. You'll see a major difference in build quality.

Excellent! Which model do you have?

Cheers,
Alex

Nad · 16th January 2006, 10:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

The MDS unit is looking quite interesting, and at the moment seems the best fit, and we may buy one of those then check its safety and mod if necessary.

Cheers,
Alex

Hi Alex,
Please keep me informed about the MPS quality if you will buy it.
Thanks
Nad

Mark Webster · 16th January 2006, 15:15

Hi all,
I have the same booster pump. I run mine from a small domestic 8 bar compressor with 2 in line moisture traps . This will boost upto 210bar. On one of the moisture traps it has a pressure regulator so it's just a simple case of gradually increasing the feed pressure to the booster pump. This gives more control than using it from compressed air cyl

9th January 2006, 21:17	#41 (permalink)
Northern Monkey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England Posts: 25	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Do the International Hydraulic Booster and the Jetsam/Kiss boosters have CE approval? If you are using the above in any commercial environment would your insurance be vaild. I take it that you dive a CE approved rebreather so your life insurance is valid, but please note a couple of those have caught fire in the past. For your piece of mind buy a Haskel or a Maximator DLE 30 - 1, alternatively you could wait until the smaller units have CE approval. __________________ Death is not an option!
(Offline)

9th January 2006, 21:25	#42 (permalink)
Northern Monkey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England Posts: 25	Re: Maximator Booster Pump FYI Haskel Oxygen Boosters do explode, contamination is the major issue. http://www.psc.ca/safety_info/safety...92/sa92_08.htm __________________ Death is not an option!
(Offline)

9th January 2006, 22:00	#43 (permalink)
iain-hsm Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Loughborough England uk Posts: 347	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by Northern Monkey) Do the International Hydraulic Booster and the Jetsam/Kiss boosters have CE approval? If you are using the above in any commercial environment would your insurance be vaild. For your piece of mind buy a Haskel or a Maximator DLE 30 - 1, alternatively you could wait until the smaller units have CE approval. Mark You seem unable to answer the direct questions on this Maximator pump being suitable for oxygen. However I am quite happy to answer yours: 1. International and Jetsam have no legal requirement or need to CE mark or test there products to CE. Because they are outside the EU. However if they or you or anyone else were to import these items for resale then they or the importer are required under EU law to satify CE directives. Maximator in Germany and yourself are not out side the EU therefore you have to subject the product to CE. You dont have a choice. These are not my rules as I'm sure you understand. Maximator in Germany do not certify this product for oxygen How can you? 2. As for your submission on the Haskel oxygen fire just read the prevension statement. ENSURE WORKERS ARE TRAINED AND CERTIFIED BEFORE THEY REPAIR PUMPS. Any untrained monkey can cause the fire, but the question to you was as the reseller of this product have you tested this pump you are selling for oxygen and is it CE certifed for oxygen and if so to what presuure and if not why not? Iain Middlebrook.
(Offline)

14th January 2006, 23:11	#45 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Alex, not trying to be funny but I hope you know what you are doing. Making 300bar gas boosters is not something an amateur can wing like making some electronics or other bit of kit - having seen first hand pressure vessels failing and the result I know how dangerous they can be - especially when gas is the working medium. This is serious stuff, serious engineering making some colourful pics doesnt cut it on this one. You may know what your doing, I dont know, but if you do its probably good to indicate that so others with access to a CAD package dont think 'Oh I reckon I can make one of those, sounds easy' It is until it fails and kills people. I see people all the time use FE packages and believing the results 100% when they dont put in the right info into the model - rubbish in - rubbish out. But they get a nice pic so they think all is ok. Like I said you may know what your doing, not trying to be funny. Im curious about that pic - is this the drive cylinder? are you thinking of making a rounded end vessel? How will you get the gas in/out? Shouldnt that be in the model. In the pic you put up the open end is modelled unrestrained As you may know for thin or thick walled tubes standard formula exists - no need to model __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 15th January 2006 at 11:05.
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15th January 2006, 04:14	#46 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 515	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) 1. Haskels: the business, but big, overpriced for what they are, greedy on air and too low pressure (we want to pump He to 350 bar and O2 to 300 bar). O2 AGD-30 is £3500 or so. You are quoting the spec from one haskel out of dozens. My Haskel does 600 bar without any problems whatsoever...... And as for overpriced, well you should take a Haskel apart and then any of the other units you quoted. You'll see a major difference in build quality. __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
(Offline)

16th January 2006, 10:02	#47 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,734	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Alex, not trying to be funny but I hope you know what you are doing. Making 300bar gas boosters is not something an amateur can wing like making some electronics or other bit of kit - having seen first hand pressure vessels failing and the result I know how dangerous they can be - especially when gas is the working medium. This is serious stuff, serious engineering making some colourful pics doesnt cut it on this one. You may know what your doing, I dont know, but if you do its probably good to indicate that so others with access to a CAD package dont think 'Oh I reckon I can make one of those, sounds easy' It is until it fails and kills people. I see people all the time use FE packages and believing the results 100% when they dont put in the right info into the model - rubbish in - rubbish out. But they get a nice pic so they think all is ok. Like I said you may know what your doing, not trying to be funny. Im curious about that pic - is this the drive cylinder? are you thinking of making a rounded end vessel? How will you get the gas in/out? Shouldnt that be in the model. In the pic you put up the open end is modelled unrestrained As you may know for thin or thick walled tubes standard formula exists - no need to model I will explain. The drive cylinder is easy: we just run it off a first stage or compressor so it always runs with 6 to 15 bar intermediate pressure, depending on the stage. The hard bit on a booster is the high pressure cylinder. This is a small bore cylinder with two one way valves on it. The one way valves means there is a thread on a high pressure cylinder, hence the rounded end. The first question we had was whether Monel can be used for the high pressure cylinder. It seems that at pressure materials fail because the stress inside is beyond the yield limits for the material, and a crack starts. It then travels through the material to the outside, and the whole thing fails. Making the material thicker does not help: it just delays the failure. We know Aluminium cannot withstand 600 bar, no matter how thick, for this diameter, so checked with monel and steel. The answer is monel can be used up to 600 bar for the diameter involved here (the wall thickness should be 10mm). We also wanted to know how big the thread would have to be. The idea would be to put the high pressure cylinder in a water jacket, which is pumped by the main cylinder (ie main cylinder drives water to cool the secondary cylinder, and drives the secondary cylinder). Main cylinder is low pressure, secondary cylinder is high pressure. We have the same geometry for something else we are doing, so checking this takes minutes. On use of standard formula, the standard forumula do not handle changes in geometry, so we use a computer: it is quick and easy. The geometry gets quite complex around the one way valves. We use CAD all the time. I agree if it is misused, it has great potential for producing wrong results. Rubbish in, lots of rubbish out. Far prefer to buy a unit. We have other things to do with our time. My post was deliberately a bit provocative, to see what comes out, as we need a unit but do not see any wonderful products out there that fit the bill perfectly. The MDS unit is looking quite interesting, and at the moment seems the best fit, and we may buy one of those then check its safety and mod if necessary. Cheers, Alex NB: I should mention that the application is reliability testing of rebreather components, not filling cylinders to dive from. We want to test a 200 bar O2 injector we designed using 300 bar with metal dust in the feed pipe, to give some comfort as to its safety, and for testing of electronic components for reliability in a He environment we need 350 bar (or wait longer). Last edited by AD_ward9 : 16th January 2006 at 11:13.
(Offline)

16th January 2006, 10:04	#48 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,734	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS) You are quoting the spec from one haskel out of dozens. My Haskel does 600 bar without any problems whatsoever...... And as for overpriced, well you should take a Haskel apart and then any of the other units you quoted. You'll see a major difference in build quality. Excellent! Which model do you have? Cheers, Alex
(Offline)

16th January 2006, 10:37	#49 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 960	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) The MDS unit is looking quite interesting, and at the moment seems the best fit, and we may buy one of those then check its safety and mod if necessary. Cheers, Alex Hi Alex, Please keep me informed about the MPS quality if you will buy it. Thanks Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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16th January 2006, 15:15	#50 (permalink)
Mark Webster New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mansfield Posts: 16	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Hi all, I have the same booster pump. I run mine from a small domestic 8 bar compressor with 2 in line moisture traps . This will boost upto 210bar. On one of the moisture traps it has a pressure regulator so it's just a simple case of gradually increasing the feed pressure to the booster pump. This gives more control than using it from compressed air cyl
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