Maximator Booster Pump

UKSteve · 1st December 2005, 13:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by John Speers)

Hi Steve,

Just a quickie, could you use an old 1st stage on the LP side to regulate the drive gas pressure? Would there be enough gas flow?

Cheers Mate.

John,

Thats what I plan to do...just was too impatient to drag one out and clean it so I used a stage valve!! However its not the pressure really but the flow rate that needs to be controlled. I adjusted the interstage pressure down to 10 bar but you still need to just crack the cylinder valve to keep the speed down. Trouble is a crossflow valve is pretty much on/off. Thats why I'd like to use a needle valve. Having problems tracking a low pressure (15-20 bar) valve down at the moment though.

Steve

John Speers · 1st December 2005, 13:44

Bear with me, I'll ask Melvin, he's a fridge engineer so knows a bit about gas flow control.

Northern Monkey · 2nd December 2005, 02:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

John,

Thats what I plan to do...just was too impatient to drag one out and clean it so I used a stage valve!! However its not the pressure really but the flow rate that needs to be controlled. I adjusted the interstage pressure down to 10 bar but you still need to just crack the cylinder valve to keep the speed down. Trouble is a crossflow valve is pretty much on/off. Thats why I'd like to use a needle valve. Having problems tracking a low pressure (15-20 bar) valve down at the moment though.

Steve

Steve,

A puenmatic needle valve may be the cheapest option.

I drive mine at home using a low pressure paint spraying compressor 10 bar.
Which comes with a LP needle valve to set the pumping rate.

Two things to note are

1. You must drive this booster using clean air, therefore use an in-line water and oil filter with a LP compressor. (Not a problem with breathing air from a cylinder)

2. I bought a LP compressor from Machine Mart an Airmaster Tiger made in Italy.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=000114052&r=2007&g=102

Although the compressor states 10 bar, I found I have to adjust the cut out switch on the unit as it was factory set to 7 bar. Simply remove on/switch cover and alter pressure cut out screw adjustment. Disconnect mains, make minor adjustments then check cutout pressure.

With this LP compressor I can leave the booster to shift larger volumes of gas around from J / 50 litre cylinders while I prep dive kit.

Another tip is to not exceed the efficiency ratio of 1:4, by this I mean try not to pump the inlet gas to a pressure 4 times greater than the input pressure its very greedy on drive air and this goes for all booster including Haskels. I take a 12 litre of O2 away on diving trips to boost into the Ouroboros 2 litre in board cylinders, it only takes a matter of mins with the booster. At home I top the 12 litre from J cylinders right down to 15 bar. If you try to fill the 2 litre directly from a J with 15 bar in you will be waiting a long while. Perhaps somebody can do the maths??

There are currently 3 models of booster available. The specification is the same, but the construction materials and drive methods are different.

www.underpressurediving.co.uk

mini booster Aluminium and steel for indoor use, lowest cost.
expedition mini booster Aluminium and stainless steel for boat, outdoor use.
expedition + mini booster Aluminium and stainless steel for outdoor/ boat use. Comes with handle to allow manual drive along with air drive.

Happy boosting

abowie · 2nd December 2005, 07:40

This pump was originally designed as a hydraulic pump; ie it was designed to pump liquids.

Is this a problem for pumping HP O2?

MHD · 2nd December 2005, 09:45

whether they are suitable really comes down to what material the piston head is made from. If it is non sparking (and in it self stable on o2) then it should be fine. You can make a booster from hydraulic cylinder of similar construction, but you need to ensure the piston head is brass at least so it can't spark. A few accidents have happened to people who didn't.

Have to admit of being very interested if the price is right, but the O2 is going in a shed external to the house. Getting cautious in my old age.

Matt

abowie · 3rd December 2005, 05:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

whether they are suitable really comes down to what material the piston head is made from. Matt

The reason I ask is not so much about O2 compatibility as heating.

I'm assuming (not that I'm sure) that there is a LOT more heat produced by compressing a gas inside a piston (adiabatic heating) than there is by pushing an essentially incompressible fluid through one.

My concern with devices being used for applications they're not actually designed for like this is that if they heat up and they're not designed to whether they will wear prematurely or maybe fail catastrophically.

I'm wondering if anyone knows whether this is likely to be an issue or not.

I'm currently in the market for a booster and this looks attractive but I'm a little hesitant.

lawrence · 4th December 2005, 17:33

For a info on the complete range of Maximaor pumps contact Henry Mason at Maxiflo http://www.maxiflo.co.uk/, the UK agent.

Henry's extremely helpful. I went for one of the much higher spec pumps, it being for open circuit trimix. He gave me loads of advice on building the system and even gave me contacts with his suppliers so I could get the other bits I needed cheeper. For instance, use Hamlet instead of Swagelok- a good deal cheaper but fully compatable.

Lawrence

Phil · 4th December 2005, 17:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Northern Monkey)

its very greedy on drive air and this goes for all booster including Haskels.If you try to fill the 2 litre directly from a J with 15 bar in you will be waiting a long while. Perhaps somebody can do the maths??

I can certainly confirm that it is very greedy, although the pressure of the drive gas is important what is even more important is the quantity (through put). Whenever you read Haskel documentation the standard driving gas is 2000L / minute. This is a lot. I did some testing on my haskel and I finally found that with 6 of those small LP compressor it was about the correct drive gas for small 2 - 3 liter tank when J is at 15 bars. I did not do the math since I just did the practical test. I just filled up a 2 L tank to 250 bars with the J being at 20 bars. It took exactly 3'25", not so long!

Photo of my installation with LP compressors http://www.rebreatherphil.com/monhaskel.php

Cheers,

Drmike · 6th January 2006, 03:09

Hmm, I tried to buy a Maximator M22 pump straight from the manufacturer and I got this reply.

I guess they are just covering their butts - but I am wondering if its just a case of switching out the seals (the piston is brass and the housing is Iron) I wonder why they arent supporting the application??

------------------------------------------------------------------------------,
Sorry for the delay to reply you.

We are not able to make the offer.

We had done some checking regarding the M22 pump for oxygen which you have mentioned.
MAXIMATOR does not permit the pumps series for oxygen service.This company makes modifications themselves on their own risk.

Some information for you.
Under Pressure Diving in UK which have published this article in the Internet regarding the mentioned pumps.
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebreather-accessories-articles/2330-my-new-toy.html?
http://www.underpressurediving.co.uk/

Thank you.

Best Regards

David Lee
MAXIMATOR Far East Pte Ltd

iain-hsm · 6th January 2006, 09:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Phil)

I can certainly confirm that it is very greedy, although the pressure of the drive gas is important what is even more important is the quantity (through put). Whenever you read Haskel documentation the standard driving gas is 2000L / minute. This is a lot. I did some testing on my haskel and I finally found that with 6 of those small LP compressor it was about the correct drive gas for small 2 - 3 liter tank when J is at 15 bars. I did not do the math since I just did the practical test. I just filled up a 2 L tank to 250 bars with the J being at 20 bars. It took exactly 3'25", not so long! Cheers,

Phil

Are you saying it takes 3 hours 25 minutes to fill a 3 liter from 15 bar to 250 bar using a low pressure air drive 6 off 180l/min total 1080l/min drive air

1st December 2005, 13:39	#11 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 598	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by John Speers) Hi Steve, Just a quickie, could you use an old 1st stage on the LP side to regulate the drive gas pressure? Would there be enough gas flow? Cheers Mate. John, Thats what I plan to do...just was too impatient to drag one out and clean it so I used a stage valve!! However its not the pressure really but the flow rate that needs to be controlled. I adjusted the interstage pressure down to 10 bar but you still need to just crack the cylinder valve to keep the speed down. Trouble is a crossflow valve is pretty much on/off. Thats why I'd like to use a needle valve. Having problems tracking a low pressure (15-20 bar) valve down at the moment though. Steve
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1st December 2005, 13:44	#12 (permalink)
John Speers New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 19	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Bear with me, I'll ask Melvin, he's a fridge engineer so knows a bit about gas flow control.
(Offline)

2nd December 2005, 02:53	#13 (permalink)
Northern Monkey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England Posts: 25	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) John, Thats what I plan to do...just was too impatient to drag one out and clean it so I used a stage valve!! However its not the pressure really but the flow rate that needs to be controlled. I adjusted the interstage pressure down to 10 bar but you still need to just crack the cylinder valve to keep the speed down. Trouble is a crossflow valve is pretty much on/off. Thats why I'd like to use a needle valve. Having problems tracking a low pressure (15-20 bar) valve down at the moment though. Steve Steve, A puenmatic needle valve may be the cheapest option. I drive mine at home using a low pressure paint spraying compressor 10 bar. Which comes with a LP needle valve to set the pumping rate. Two things to note are 1. You must drive this booster using clean air, therefore use an in-line water and oil filter with a LP compressor. (Not a problem with breathing air from a cylinder) 2. I bought a LP compressor from Machine Mart an Airmaster Tiger made in Italy. http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=000114052&r=2007&g=102 Although the compressor states 10 bar, I found I have to adjust the cut out switch on the unit as it was factory set to 7 bar. Simply remove on/switch cover and alter pressure cut out screw adjustment. Disconnect mains, make minor adjustments then check cutout pressure. With this LP compressor I can leave the booster to shift larger volumes of gas around from J / 50 litre cylinders while I prep dive kit. Another tip is to not exceed the efficiency ratio of 1:4, by this I mean try not to pump the inlet gas to a pressure 4 times greater than the input pressure its very greedy on drive air and this goes for all booster including Haskels. I take a 12 litre of O2 away on diving trips to boost into the Ouroboros 2 litre in board cylinders, it only takes a matter of mins with the booster. At home I top the 12 litre from J cylinders right down to 15 bar. If you try to fill the 2 litre directly from a J with 15 bar in you will be waiting a long while. Perhaps somebody can do the maths?? There are currently 3 models of booster available. The specification is the same, but the construction materials and drive methods are different. www.underpressurediving.co.uk mini booster Aluminium and steel for indoor use, lowest cost. expedition mini booster Aluminium and stainless steel for boat, outdoor use. expedition + mini booster Aluminium and stainless steel for outdoor/ boat use. Comes with handle to allow manual drive along with air drive. Happy boosting __________________ Death is not an option!
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2nd December 2005, 07:40	#14 (permalink)
abowie Fighting Girl Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Land of Oz Posts: 574	Re: Maximator Booster Pump This pump was originally designed as a hydraulic pump; ie it was designed to pump liquids. Is this a problem for pumping HP O2? __________________ Andrew Bowie Rebreather-friendly Buddy
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2nd December 2005, 09:45	#15 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: Maximator Booster Pump whether they are suitable really comes down to what material the piston head is made from. If it is non sparking (and in it self stable on o2) then it should be fine. You can make a booster from hydraulic cylinder of similar construction, but you need to ensure the piston head is brass at least so it can't spark. A few accidents have happened to people who didn't. Have to admit of being very interested if the price is right, but the O2 is going in a shed external to the house. Getting cautious in my old age. Matt Last edited by MHD : 2nd December 2005 at 10:12.
(Offline)

3rd December 2005, 05:50	#16 (permalink)
abowie Fighting Girl Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Land of Oz Posts: 574	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) whether they are suitable really comes down to what material the piston head is made from. Matt The reason I ask is not so much about O2 compatibility as heating. I'm assuming (not that I'm sure) that there is a LOT more heat produced by compressing a gas inside a piston (adiabatic heating) than there is by pushing an essentially incompressible fluid through one. My concern with devices being used for applications they're not actually designed for like this is that if they heat up and they're not designed to whether they will wear prematurely or maybe fail catastrophically. I'm wondering if anyone knows whether this is likely to be an issue or not. I'm currently in the market for a booster and this looks attractive but I'm a little hesitant. __________________ Andrew Bowie Rebreather-friendly Buddy
(Offline)

4th December 2005, 17:33	#17 (permalink)
lawrence New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Newcastle, UK Posts: 6	Re: Maximator Booster Pump For a info on the complete range of Maximaor pumps contact Henry Mason at Maxiflo http://www.maxiflo.co.uk/, the UK agent. Henry's extremely helpful. I went for one of the much higher spec pumps, it being for open circuit trimix. He gave me loads of advice on building the system and even gave me contacts with his suppliers so I could get the other bits I needed cheeper. For instance, use Hamlet instead of Swagelok- a good deal cheaper but fully compatable. Lawrence
(Offline)

4th December 2005, 17:55	#18 (permalink)
Phil Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Geneva-Switzerland Posts: 172	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by Northern Monkey) its very greedy on drive air and this goes for all booster including Haskels.If you try to fill the 2 litre directly from a J with 15 bar in you will be waiting a long while. Perhaps somebody can do the maths?? I can certainly confirm that it is very greedy, although the pressure of the drive gas is important what is even more important is the quantity (through put). Whenever you read Haskel documentation the standard driving gas is 2000L / minute. This is a lot. I did some testing on my haskel and I finally found that with 6 of those small LP compressor it was about the correct drive gas for small 2 - 3 liter tank when J is at 15 bars. I did not do the math since I just did the practical test. I just filled up a 2 L tank to 250 bars with the J being at 20 bars. It took exactly 3'25", not so long! Photo of my installation with LP compressors http://www.rebreatherphil.com/monhaskel.php Cheers, __________________ Phil __________________ CCR/OC Instructor CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com
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6th January 2006, 03:09	#19 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Hmm, I tried to buy a Maximator M22 pump straight from the manufacturer and I got this reply. I guess they are just covering their butts - but I am wondering if its just a case of switching out the seals (the piston is brass and the housing is Iron) I wonder why they arent supporting the application?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------, Sorry for the delay to reply you. We are not able to make the offer. We had done some checking regarding the M22 pump for oxygen which you have mentioned. MAXIMATOR does not permit the pumps series for oxygen service.This company makes modifications themselves on their own risk. Some information for you. Under Pressure Diving in UK which have published this article in the Internet regarding the mentioned pumps. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebreather-accessories-articles/2330-my-new-toy.html? http://www.underpressurediving.co.uk/ Thank you. Best Regards David Lee MAXIMATOR Far East Pte Ltd __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

6th January 2006, 09:58	#20 (permalink)
iain-hsm Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Loughborough England uk Posts: 347	Re: Maximator Booster Pump Quote: (Originally Posted by Phil) I can certainly confirm that it is very greedy, although the pressure of the drive gas is important what is even more important is the quantity (through put). Whenever you read Haskel documentation the standard driving gas is 2000L / minute. This is a lot. I did some testing on my haskel and I finally found that with 6 of those small LP compressor it was about the correct drive gas for small 2 - 3 liter tank when J is at 15 bars. I did not do the math since I just did the practical test. I just filled up a 2 L tank to 250 bars with the J being at 20 bars. It took exactly 3'25", not so long! Cheers, Phil Are you saying it takes 3 hours 25 minutes to fill a 3 liter from 15 bar to 250 bar using a low pressure air drive 6 off 180l/min total 1080l/min drive air
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