Medical or industrial

TwoDogs · 19th July 2008, 21:26

This has probably been done to death before but I will ask again. Is it ok to use industrail gasses as in Balloon Helium and Oxygen? Are people using them and what are the reasons for and against using them? As far as I can find out the only differance is they fully evacuate the cylinder for medical .

**OceanOpportunity** · 19th July 2008, 22:17

there are trace impurities in non-'medical' gasses. probably no big deal at the surface, but with increased partial pressures I wouldnt trust it.

With helium, the stuff used for balloons can have as much as 7-8% other gasses, so no good there. With O2, it is wise to use only O2 intended for breathing, such as medical or aviator grade. industrial O2 used for burning can also have a much lower percentage of O2 than expected, and more importantly, a higher percentage of other unwanted stuff.

**nigelh** · 19th July 2008, 23:14

I buy Oxygen from AP in the UK and the published specs are virtually identical, just the paper trail on the breathable is a bit more complete.

Even the welding grade has trivial impurities (Nitrogen and stuff and frankly sounds like 1 bar of air worst case).

Baloon helium isn't pure helium.

Lancer4545 · 20th July 2008, 00:20

Be careful with using baloon gas here in Oz. BOC told me they add O2 so the gas is not hypoxic. Apparently there had been many cases of kids passing out from playing with it making "Donald Duck" voices so they added 16% O2.

I haven't analyzed it as I have always only used Breathing He.

As for "Welding O2....I randomly analyzed 6 cylinders at work one day to see for myself and came up with 99.9% on all tanks tested. I still use "Aviator's Dry Breathing O2" and it comes conveniently at 250 Bar.

Regards,

Lance

gkndivebum · 20th July 2008, 05:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545)

Be careful with using baloon gas here in Oz. BOC told me they add O2 so the gas is not hypoxic. Apparently there had been many cases of kids passing out from playing with it making "Donald Duck" voices so they added 16% O2.
[...]

As an aside, I got one of those party balloon fillers for a birthday party for my spouse a couple of years
ago - you know the kind with the built-in distendable rubber nozzle.

I figured I'd go ahead and analyze the gas in it, just to see what was there. It came out to 92% He
and 2% O2. Both numbers really surprised me. Wonder what the other 6% was?

I figured there would be more O2 and way less He...

Back on topic, I get ABO from Airgas and 99.999 He from Air Liquide here in Kona.

My $0.02, FWIW (which is apparently less and less every day

)

Lancer4545 · 20th July 2008, 10:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by gkndivebum)

As an aside, I got one of those party balloon fillers for a birthday party for my spouse a couple of years
ago - you know the kind with the built-in distendable rubber nozzle.

I figured I'd go ahead and analyze the gas in it, just to see what was there. It came out to 92% He
and 2% O2. Both numbers really surprised me. Wonder what the other 6% was?

I figured there would be more O2 and way less He...

Back on topic, I get ABO from Airgas and 99.999 He from Air Liquide here in Kona.

My $0.02, FWIW (which is apparently less and less every day

)

One might hazard to guess Nitrogen from residual air in the tank before filling, but who knows.....I wouldn't breathe it!!!

You have to love the value of the US dollar.........We Ozzies have never had it so good!!! :D:D

Lance

Steve · 20th July 2008, 10:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545)

. I still use "Aviator's Dry Breathing O2" and it comes conveniently at 250 Bar.

Regards,

Lance

I bought it for a while around 2000 and my repair bills were getting to be a pain. The complete lack of moisture in it was buggering first stage seats and o rings. This was on a KISS so no solenoid. It may adversely affect it as well.

I'd recommend keeping an eye on things.

As for the OP. Balloon gas can be very rough, I've analysed it as low as 94%. No idea what the rest was but it wasn't O2. Personally I wouldn't use it. Don't get too caught up about the term 'Industrial" though, You can get Industrial helium at 99.9999% if you want.

When purchasing He in Aus it may be useful to omit the bit about diving in your request. You may get diving grade He which has a small % of O2 added for "safety".

Lancer4545 · 20th July 2008, 11:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

I bought it for a while around 2000 and my repair bills were getting to be a pain. The complete lack of moisture in it was buggering first stage seats and o rings.

WHAT!!!!

The LACK of moisture was stuffing the seats and O'Rings.......

Come on Steve.......Have a think about what you've written

Lance

**wedivebc** · 20th July 2008, 16:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

I bought it for a while around 2000 and my repair bills were getting to be a pain. The complete lack of moisture in it was buggering first stage seats and o rings. This was on a KISS so no solenoid. It may adversely affect it as well.

I'd recommend keeping an eye on things.

As for the OP. Balloon gas can be very rough, I've analysed it as low as 94%. No idea what the rest was but it wasn't O2. Personally I wouldn't use it. Don't get too caught up about the term 'Industrial" though, You can get Industrial helium at 99.9999% if you want.

When purchasing He in Aus it may be useful to omit the bit about diving in your request. You may get diving grade He which has a small % of O2 added for "safety".

I asked my gas supplier (praxair) and he said aviators, medical and technical all come from the same source and all cylinders are treated the same way. The only difference is the tests they perform to certify a certain dewpoint in aviators and a certain purity for medical. Technical is untested but exactly the same. Praxair even evacs the cylinders for technical.

divelermentov · 20th July 2008, 20:56

aviation o2 is cheap anyway - so not much of a saving going for welding o2,
the only problem with the breathing grade stuff is that BOC is sometimes a pain and doesn't want to supply when they know that you want to transfill.
Thats why i get my sruff through work - plus now it is tax-deductable

.

Helium - well big price difference obviously - however dil consumption is low, so shouldn't be a biggy either

19th July 2008, 21:26	#1 (permalink)
TwoDogs New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 8	Medical or industrial This has probably been done to death before but I will ask again. Is it ok to use industrail gasses as in Balloon Helium and Oxygen? Are people using them and what are the reasons for and against using them? As far as I can find out the only differance is they fully evacuate the cylinder for medical .
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19th July 2008, 22:17	#2 (permalink)
OceanOpportunity for a world of water Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic rEvo Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Providence, RI USA Posts: 734	Re: Medical or industrial there are trace impurities in non-'medical' gasses. probably no big deal at the surface, but with increased partial pressures I wouldnt trust it. With helium, the stuff used for balloons can have as much as 7-8% other gasses, so no good there. With O2, it is wise to use only O2 intended for breathing, such as medical or aviator grade. industrial O2 used for burning can also have a much lower percentage of O2 than expected, and more importantly, a higher percentage of other unwanted stuff. __________________ Michael Lombardi \| Oceans of Opportunity Blog : a new life in the sea \| a progressive & futurist outlook on ocean exploration
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19th July 2008, 23:14	#3 (permalink)
nigelh Nigel Hewitt Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 1,032	Re: Medical or industrial I buy Oxygen from AP in the UK and the published specs are virtually identical, just the paper trail on the breathable is a bit more complete. Even the welding grade has trivial impurities (Nitrogen and stuff and frankly sounds like 1 bar of air worst case). Baloon helium isn't pure helium. __________________ nigelh
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20th July 2008, 00:20	#4 (permalink)
Lancer4545 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 892	Re: Medical or industrial Be careful with using baloon gas here in Oz. BOC told me they add O2 so the gas is not hypoxic. Apparently there had been many cases of kids passing out from playing with it making "Donald Duck" voices so they added 16% O2. I haven't analyzed it as I have always only used Breathing He. As for "Welding O2....I randomly analyzed 6 cylinders at work one day to see for myself and came up with 99.9% on all tanks tested. I still use "Aviator's Dry Breathing O2" and it comes conveniently at 250 Bar. Regards, Lance
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20th July 2008, 05:57	#5 (permalink)
gkndivebum PRISM diver Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kona, HI Posts: 80	Re: Medical or industrial Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545) Be careful with using baloon gas here in Oz. BOC told me they add O2 so the gas is not hypoxic. Apparently there had been many cases of kids passing out from playing with it making "Donald Duck" voices so they added 16% O2. [...] As an aside, I got one of those party balloon fillers for a birthday party for my spouse a couple of years ago - you know the kind with the built-in distendable rubber nozzle. I figured I'd go ahead and analyze the gas in it, just to see what was there. It came out to 92% He and 2% O2. Both numbers really surprised me. Wonder what the other 6% was? I figured there would be more O2 and way less He... Back on topic, I get ABO from Airgas and 99.999 He from Air Liquide here in Kona. My $0.02, FWIW (which is apparently less and less every day ) __________________ Best regards - gkn -- Gerard K. Newman - Kona, HI
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20th July 2008, 10:20	#6 (permalink)
Lancer4545 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 892	Re: Medical or industrial Quote: (Originally Posted by gkndivebum) As an aside, I got one of those party balloon fillers for a birthday party for my spouse a couple of years ago - you know the kind with the built-in distendable rubber nozzle. I figured I'd go ahead and analyze the gas in it, just to see what was there. It came out to 92% He and 2% O2. Both numbers really surprised me. Wonder what the other 6% was? I figured there would be more O2 and way less He... Back on topic, I get ABO from Airgas and 99.999 He from Air Liquide here in Kona. My $0.02, FWIW (which is apparently less and less every day ) One might hazard to guess Nitrogen from residual air in the tank before filling, but who knows.....I wouldn't breathe it!!! You have to love the value of the US dollar.........We Ozzies have never had it so good!!! :D:D Lance
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20th July 2008, 10:41	#7 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,166	Re: Medical or industrial Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545) . I still use "Aviator's Dry Breathing O2" and it comes conveniently at 250 Bar. Regards, Lance I bought it for a while around 2000 and my repair bills were getting to be a pain. The complete lack of moisture in it was buggering first stage seats and o rings. This was on a KISS so no solenoid. It may adversely affect it as well. I'd recommend keeping an eye on things. As for the OP. Balloon gas can be very rough, I've analysed it as low as 94%. No idea what the rest was but it wasn't O2. Personally I wouldn't use it. Don't get too caught up about the term 'Industrial" though, You can get Industrial helium at 99.9999% if you want. When purchasing He in Aus it may be useful to omit the bit about diving in your request. You may get diving grade He which has a small % of O2 added for "safety". Last edited by Steve : 20th July 2008 at 10:45. Reason: added a bit.
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20th July 2008, 11:48	#8 (permalink)
Lancer4545 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 892	Re: Medical or industrial Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) I bought it for a while around 2000 and my repair bills were getting to be a pain. The complete lack of moisture in it was buggering first stage seats and o rings. WHAT!!!! The LACK of moisture was stuffing the seats and O'Rings....... Come on Steve.......Have a think about what you've written Lance
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20th July 2008, 16:58	#9 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,699	Re: Medical or industrial Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) I bought it for a while around 2000 and my repair bills were getting to be a pain. The complete lack of moisture in it was buggering first stage seats and o rings. This was on a KISS so no solenoid. It may adversely affect it as well. I'd recommend keeping an eye on things. As for the OP. Balloon gas can be very rough, I've analysed it as low as 94%. No idea what the rest was but it wasn't O2. Personally I wouldn't use it. Don't get too caught up about the term 'Industrial" though, You can get Industrial helium at 99.9999% if you want. When purchasing He in Aus it may be useful to omit the bit about diving in your request. You may get diving grade He which has a small % of O2 added for "safety". I asked my gas supplier (praxair) and he said aviators, medical and technical all come from the same source and all cylinders are treated the same way. The only difference is the tests they perform to certify a certain dewpoint in aviators and a certain purity for medical. Technical is untested but exactly the same. Praxair even evacs the cylinders for technical. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... www.wedivebc.com
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20th July 2008, 20:56	#10 (permalink)
divelermentov Nutty dentist - uwdriller Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Auckland Posts: 683	Re: Medical or industrial aviation o2 is cheap anyway - so not much of a saving going for welding o2, the only problem with the breathing grade stuff is that BOC is sometimes a pain and doesn't want to supply when they know that you want to transfill. Thats why i get my sruff through work - plus now it is tax-deductable . Helium - well big price difference obviously - however dil consumption is low, so shouldn't be a biggy either
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