Submatix CCR 100 SMS

michael hearn · 26th November 2006, 12:21

hi there
i have to agree with paul on this on, as far as i know you cant get a CE on aCMF unit as it is not a life sustaining unit if it is not manualy opperated at some point to keep po2 at a breathable level. i tried to push this point at the dive show and always had evasive answers, surley somone out there can confirm if this unit is CE or not.if so then why is it so difficult for other RBs to get it ,like the rEVO or kiss which i believe have no CE, please correct me if i am wrong

***caveseeker7*** · 26th November 2006, 15:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by various people)

... you cant get a CE on aCMF unit ...

WHO GIVES A F*CK?!

The stupid CE certification obviously has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the unit certified. AP, Dräger, OMG have had it from the beginning, yet there have been plenty of accidents on them, including fatalities.

All that the damn stamp means is that the unit can be legally sold in Europe.
So good for anyone getting the darn thing and their units into shops. The one good thing, testing of scrubber and WOB performance (and setpoint accuracy for eCCRs), nets results that don't have to be published (unless they fall below the standard) and are thus worthless to me.

When talking to Gordon, before Aquatec and Submatix certified their mCCRs, he said he'd been pouring over the standards and while a pita the Sport Kiss should be certifiable with some minor changes.

Just about everyone I talked to said the MK15.5 couldn't be certified, yet they're still among the best rigs ever made. Megs, Optimas, PRISMs, all not CEed. Does anyone here actually think an Aquatec (or YBOD for that matter

) is actually better performing or safer than any of those?

The Jetsams are as good as any certified unit, the rEvo probably too.
Most likely even better than some.

Good for Submatix to get the CE ticket, good for for shops that can sell them, for customers who can go there and for instructors who can dive them.

Hope other manufacturers follow that lead.

**jmurba** · 26th November 2006, 15:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino Corp.)

I think that the Aquatek Voyager is CE approved in the SCR version.

This is what EN14143 states regarding the PpO2:
«The apparatus shall under all conditions of use specified by the manufacturer automatically maintain an inspired partial pressure of oxygen greater than 0,20 bar. The inspired partial pressure of oxygen shall remain within the limits specified by the manufacturer. The inspired partial pressure of oxygen shall also be maintained at a partial pressure of less than or equal to 1,6 bar; except during the descent phase(s) of a dive for a period not greater than 1 min where it may increase to a maximum of 2,0 bar. In the event of a failure of the automatic system provision may be made for the addition of respirable gas by the diver. If fitted this shall also be able to satisfy the inspired partial pressure of oxygen requirements of this clause. Testing shall be done in accordance with 6.2, 6.7 and 6.15.»

How can this be done in a KISS system?

I fully agree with you,
In france the submatix adverts are not clear at all as for the system, they let folks know that it is an 'evolutive' scr.....
anyway EC certification or not.....
regards
jean mi

**jmurba** · 26th November 2006, 15:21

[quote=caveseeker7;80258]WHO GIVES A F*CK?!

The stupid CE certification obviously has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the unit certified. AP, Dräger, OMG have had it from the beginning, yet there have been plenty of accidents on them, including fatalities.

jean mi : worth then that my friend , drger and ap had the certification for their units before EU issued the rebreather norm !!!!!

regards

***schford*** · 26th November 2006, 18:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

WHO GIVES A F*CK?!

Insurance Companies, A Court of Law, The Heath and Safety Executive....

I am not convinced that the submatix is CE certified in CCR mode and it would appear they have not provided any evidence either.

***caveseeker7*** · 27th November 2006, 05:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I am not convinced that the submatix is CE certified in CCR mode and it would appear they have not provided any evidence either.

From their website. What "evidence" would you consider appropriate?
I rather doubt they would advertise it as CE certified if it wasn't as that would be illegal.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Submatix website)

From 1st August 2006 CCR 100 SMS with CE

At the 1st August 2006 our CCR 100 SMS has passed successfully all needed CE tests for closed rebreathers.

As of now the delivery of CE units is possible.

Stephane · 27th November 2006, 05:50

Hi STuart,

Have a look at the two PDF files attached.

silent running · 27th November 2006, 06:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

WHO GIVES A F*CK?!

The stupid CE certification obviously has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the unit certified. AP, Dräger, OMG have had it from the beginning, yet there have been plenty of accidents on them, including fatalities.

All that the damn stamp means is that the unit can be legally sold in Europe.

Am I imagining things, or are "CE" units being self-certified by the manufacturers?

True or not, the CE mark seems way too broad as I understand it to be of use to a self-respecting CCR diver. Anybody for additional government law making, instead of finishing their vacation? -Andy

Stephane · 27th November 2006, 07:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Am I imagining things, or are "CE" units being self-certified by the manufacturers?

No, this is not the case for this type of equipment. It has to be certified on a qualified bench test.

But it is true that some equipment don't have to be certified by independant labs, and is "self-qualified" by the manucaturer (he takes liability of his equipment).

paulraymaekers · 27th November 2006, 11:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino Corp.)

Hi STuart,

Have a look at the two PDF files attached.

did no-one notice that the 2 pages not necessarily belong together??? :-)

I tried to contact mr Guinderi several times, but not possible!

anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143

paul

26th November 2006, 12:21	#21 (permalink)
michael hearn Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: belgium Posts: 114	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS hi there i have to agree with paul on this on, as far as i know you cant get a CE on aCMF unit as it is not a life sustaining unit if it is not manualy opperated at some point to keep po2 at a breathable level. i tried to push this point at the dive show and always had evasive answers, surley somone out there can confirm if this unit is CE or not.if so then why is it so difficult for other RBs to get it ,like the rEVO or kiss which i believe have no CE, please correct me if i am wrong
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26th November 2006, 15:06	#22 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,496	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by various people) ... you cant get a CE on aCMF unit ... WHO GIVES A F*CK?! The stupid CE certification obviously has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the unit certified. AP, Dräger, OMG have had it from the beginning, yet there have been plenty of accidents on them, including fatalities. All that the damn stamp means is that the unit can be legally sold in Europe. So good for anyone getting the darn thing and their units into shops. The one good thing, testing of scrubber and WOB performance (and setpoint accuracy for eCCRs), nets results that don't have to be published (unless they fall below the standard) and are thus worthless to me. When talking to Gordon, before Aquatec and Submatix certified their mCCRs, he said he'd been pouring over the standards and while a pita the Sport Kiss should be certifiable with some minor changes. Just about everyone I talked to said the MK15.5 couldn't be certified, yet they're still among the best rigs ever made. Megs, Optimas, PRISMs, all not CEed. Does anyone here actually think an Aquatec (or YBOD for that matter ) is actually better performing or safer than any of those? The Jetsams are as good as any certified unit, the rEvo probably too. Most likely even better than some. Good for Submatix to get the CE ticket, good for for shops that can sell them, for customers who can go there and for instructors who can dive them. Hope other manufacturers follow that lead. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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26th November 2006, 15:15	#23 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino Corp.) I think that the Aquatek Voyager is CE approved in the SCR version. This is what EN14143 states regarding the PpO2: «The apparatus shall under all conditions of use specified by the manufacturer automatically maintain an inspired partial pressure of oxygen greater than 0,20 bar. The inspired partial pressure of oxygen shall remain within the limits specified by the manufacturer. The inspired partial pressure of oxygen shall also be maintained at a partial pressure of less than or equal to 1,6 bar; except during the descent phase(s) of a dive for a period not greater than 1 min where it may increase to a maximum of 2,0 bar. In the event of a failure of the automatic system provision may be made for the addition of respirable gas by the diver. If fitted this shall also be able to satisfy the inspired partial pressure of oxygen requirements of this clause. Testing shall be done in accordance with 6.2, 6.7 and 6.15.» How can this be done in a KISS system? I fully agree with you, In france the submatix adverts are not clear at all as for the system, they let folks know that it is an 'evolutive' scr..... anyway EC certification or not..... regards jean mi
(Online)

26th November 2006, 15:21	#24 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS [quote=caveseeker7;80258]WHO GIVES A F*CK?! The stupid CE certification obviously has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the unit certified. AP, Dräger, OMG have had it from the beginning, yet there have been plenty of accidents on them, including fatalities. jean mi : worth then that my friend , drger and ap had the certification for their units before EU issued the rebreather norm !!!!! regards
(Online)

26th November 2006, 18:45	#25 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) WHO GIVES A FCK?! Insurance Companies, A Court of Law, The Heath and Safety Executive.... I am not convinced that the submatix is CE certified in CCR mode and it would appear they have not provided any evidence either. __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law* The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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27th November 2006, 05:42	#26 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,496	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I am not convinced that the submatix is CE certified in CCR mode and it would appear they have not provided any evidence either. From their website. What "evidence" would you consider appropriate? I rather doubt they would advertise it as CE certified if it wasn't as that would be illegal. Quote: (Originally Posted by Submatix website) From 1st August 2006 CCR 100 SMS with CE At the 1st August 2006 our CCR 100 SMS has passed successfully all needed CE tests for closed rebreathers. As of now the delivery of CE units is possible. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

27th November 2006, 06:52	#28 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) WHO GIVES A F*CK?! The stupid CE certification obviously has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the unit certified. AP, Dräger, OMG have had it from the beginning, yet there have been plenty of accidents on them, including fatalities. All that the damn stamp means is that the unit can be legally sold in Europe. Am I imagining things, or are "CE" units being self-certified by the manufacturers? True or not, the CE mark seems way too broad as I understand it to be of use to a self-respecting CCR diver. Anybody for additional government law making, instead of finishing their vacation? -Andy
(Offline)

27th November 2006, 07:30	#29 (permalink)
Stephane Stéphane Acounis Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Nantes - France Posts: 773	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Am I imagining things, or are "CE" units being self-certified by the manufacturers? No, this is not the case for this type of equipment. It has to be certified on a qualified bench test. But it is true that some equipment don't have to be certified by independant labs, and is "self-qualified" by the manucaturer (he takes liability of his equipment). __________________ Stéphane
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27th November 2006, 11:36	#30 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,498	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino Corp.) Hi STuart, Have a look at the two PDF files attached. did no-one notice that the 2 pages not necessarily belong together??? :-) I tried to contact mr Guinderi several times, but not possible! anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143 paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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