Open Revolution vs. Cis-Lunar MK-6 Discovery

caveseeker7

Now that the Poseidon has unveiled the Mk-6 Discovery the design goal of the unit as I see it seems to be to be:
- build a safe and easy to use CCR
- get it to the market at a price below that of other manufacturers

Both of those, if I understand it correctly, are also major goals for the Open Revolution.

The main difference seems to be that Deeplife is developing the OR somewhat in the open, while Poseidon has done it under the veil of secrecy (Secret Revolution?), and that the Disco is limited to Nitrox whereas the OR should have trimix capabilities.

Both seem to rely on "revolutionizing" safety with plenty of features, taking control away from the fallible diver.

Many of the critical points raised in the two Disco threads may well apply to the OR, too, hard to say and just a guess as that unit hasn't been introduced yet.

Am I wrong, or did "the revolution" just catch us by suprise?
What are you expecting, aside from MOD, to be different with that other Revolution?

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Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

AD_ward9

We are very pleased with the goals that Poseidon have with Cis-Lunar, and apart from the secrecy, it does take on board much of the Open Revolution objectives - and some of the solutions. We have been aware of certain aspects of the Mark VI for some time, - we have a good relatiionship with Poseidon, and wish them every success.

We would hope that all eCCRs rise to this challenge, as it will mean safer diving.

The only major objective not addressed by Cis Lunar, and it is a very important one, is the EN61508 requirements. This is very far reaching.

However, Poseidon are not resting and a Mark VII meeting EN61508 or moving in that direction further would be an obvious next step. The Mark VI is a step towards Open Revolution, but not there yet. It is a good market entry.

Alex

David Pye

Personally, I am absolutely horrified by the MK-6 marketing blurb.

For example:

Hmm. So much for 'Always know your PO2'.

Oh well, as I mentioned on YD yesterday when I first read Poseidon's blurb, I will keep an eye out on eBay for all the units that are being sold to pay for funeral expenses

dave t

So are you happy that their method of po2 monitoring and the fact there are only two galvanic cells is ok? and are you happy that there is no manual intervention of the loop? Has it been CE tested?

thanks

Dave

caveseeker7

Well, to be honest, it seems way too many people forget about pO2, scrubber life, oxygen cells and just about everything else they (should have) learned in class.

Just the first time people are encouraged to do it.

Now that I have heard before, from most manufacturers, actually.

Always know your PO2 so you have something to forget.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

caveseeker7

Thanks for the comment Alex. Good questions, Dave.
Looking forward to the answers.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

silent running

Hi Stefan, lots to think about, good thread idea. It is a bit of a suprise, but I think it's inevitable that more non tech oriented divers will move into CCRs. Will there be enough of them to drive all the inovation needed to make CCRs truly safe enough for the rec market, or will some mnfs go bankrupt chasing a market that is too small? Most people I've met who did their openwater go on a few trips and then don't dive anymore. So it's hard to believe there will be a large number who will move into CCRs, much less continue diving for more than a few years.

Will all the new safety features and added complication of designs like the Cis6 and OR have any down sides that might interfere with the freedom that we CCR divers now enjoy? Will I be forced off the loop onto OC if the controller doesn't like my hot dil spiking to 1.7 at depth for a few minutes, despite the fact that I have planned the dive that way?

Don't get me wrong, I think there's lots of room for improvement in CCR safety and I would be glad to see more CCR divers in the water if only because I hate the OC buddies scaring away all the big stuff. But I do worry some about the potential for too much conformity and the loss of freedom to manage risk in our own individual ways...

caveseeker7

Given the history of electronics, power supplies and water it'll take an aweful long time for me to believe that any eCCR is failsafe ... by the time I actually feel that way I'm probably too old to do it in the first place.

Maybe if Doc Pyle trades in his MK-5p for a Disco it'll happen a decade earlier ...

To be honest, I'd take a 30 year old MK15 over either of these rigs, simple electronics, physical power disconnect, separate gauge to monitor pO2 and separate valves to control it. Make sure the electronics have a HUD and there's a BOV installed. I doubt it'll get better than that for quite some time to come.

But I am worried about these claims regarding safety of the units, and the active pursuit of divers that not only lack the CCR state of mind, but are supposed to stay like that.

The more I think about it, the less my earlier remark seems like a joke ...
I can see a PADI Resort CCR ticket coming.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

Crazyduck

Stephen,
Nice start to the thread.
I can see this as an entry level CCR unit driven towards the public.



Alex if you may be so kind; may I ask a question?

The unit is using a cartridge filter in the vertical position.
What if the diver rolls and water comes out of the counterlung and into the canister?
I worry that the gas volume being pushed through the canister will fall and the loop will not able to process enough gas.
To my feeble understanding cartridges must have a constant gas flow at a particular rate. What happens when water stops that gas flow through certain channels- do you loose them?


(This is not meant to be an attack on cartridges, instead a concern on gas flow through the cartridge in the vertical position.)

Thanks, Andrew

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Rob Davie April 2005-

Presently in a state of transition from Open Circuit to Closed Circuit.

"You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by it." - Buddha.

AD_ward9

The method using injectors to test cells is excellent in concept (we would say that, because it is what we have described the O.R. as doing for some time), but we use 4 cells. The use of 2 cells is has a very simple to calculate MTBCF: it does not meet SIL 1.

As I said, Poseidon's engineering is good, concept is the same as for Open Revolution units, but the electronics and programming, as well as the rest of the system should meet SIL 3 if one is going down this path. I think Brent's unit with a KISS 3 cell monitor is closer to the SIL requirements than the Poseidon, but would welcome the publication of data to prove me wrong.

Alex