Stuck solenoid in open position during dive?

Blomman · 9th October 2007, 09:58

In real life (and not on the internet), how common is it that a solenoid gets stuck in the open position during a dive?

// Blomman

KenStrickland · 9th October 2007, 10:22

Hi Blomman

I have been diving an Inspiration Vision for just under a year and have had the solenoid jam open once. Fortunately, it was not a deep dive and rather than try to control the ppO2 by opening and closing the cylinder, I bailed on OC.

decoweenie · 9th October 2007, 11:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Blomman)

In real life (and not on the internet), how common is it that a solenoid gets stuck in the open position during a dive?

Not often enough for me personally. None in the past 10 years...

AD_ward9 · 9th October 2007, 14:39

IMPO, this is the most probable explanation for what happened in the following fatal accident:

13/6/00 Ian Swift Hyperoxia Inspiration 41 year old. CNS hit at 43m. Diver tried but failed to bail out before convulsing. Unit had gone back to APD 5 times due to equipment faults.

Unit had no working brown out circuit, no watchdog circuit, handsets were prone to hang. Likely the master handset hung with O2 injector on.

It is a shame on all of us that sites like Diver Mole state his name and the cause as "User Stupidity", when they have not investigated enough exactly what that unit can do.

Alex

Mark Chase · 9th October 2007, 15:13

The group I dive with had two solenoids jammed open events in one year. both on the Meg. The unit was new that same year.

ATB

Mark

Mark Chase · 9th October 2007, 15:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

IMPO, this is the most probable explanation for what happened in the following fatal accident:

13/6/00 Ian Swift Hyperoxia Inspiration 41 year old. CNS hit at 43m. Diver tried but failed to bail out before convulsing. Unit had gone back to APD 5 times due to equipment faults.

Unit had no working brown out circuit, no watchdog circuit, handsets were prone to hang. Likely the master handset hung with O2 injector on.

It is a shame on all of us that sites like Diver Mole state his name and the cause as "User Stupidity", when they have not investigated enough exactly what that unit can do.

Alex

There is an element of diver error surely? A jammed open solenoid would have made a hell of a noise and massively altered buoyancy let alone over inflated the counter lungs.

The diver may not have noticed at first and may have taken a hit very quickly if he was deep, but if not, then I would have expected at least a 02 drill and a diluent flush.

I have had solenoid issues and mega spiking up to 3.0 PP02 on dives as deep as 65m but they were quickly identified and dealt with. I suppose thats the advantage of an independent HUD to compliment the hand sets.

ATB

Mark Chase

Peter M · 9th October 2007, 15:21

Right i dont really known enough but please explain as i am sitting in the wings to do mod 1

peter

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

IMPO, this is the most probable explanation for what happened in the following fatal accident:

13/6/00 Ian Swift Hyperoxia Inspiration 41 year old. CNS hit at 43m. Diver tried but failed to bail out before convulsing. Unit had gone back to APD 5 times due to equipment faults.

Unit had no working brown out circuit, no watchdog circuit, handsets were prone to hang. Likely the master handset hung with O2 injector on.

It is a shame on all of us that sites like Diver Mole state his name and the cause as "User Stupidity", when they have not investigated enough exactly what that unit can do.

Alex

AD_ward9 · 9th October 2007, 15:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by Peter M)

Right i dont really known enough but please explain as i am sitting in the wings to do mod 1

peter

So long as you do not buy a second hand unit, your handset has a very low probability of hanging, so do not worry (much). The issue affects Inspos without back lit handsets (pre Sept 2000).

Alex

Mark Chase · 9th October 2007, 15:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Peter M)

Right i dont really known enough but please explain as i am sitting in the wings to do mod 1

peter

I may be wrong Peter but i assume the master hand set stopped/froze/hung showing 1.3 and in the middle of firing the solenoid. So the hand sets don't register the problem as they are stuck on 1.3 and the solenoid fires in 02 continuously.

I also assume that with the master frozen on 1.3 no audible alarms will sound. Only the slave will be showing max pp02 but if it doesn't independently control the warning buzzers then its useless unless you happen to look at it.

Which of course, you should do every min or so.

Other units have better design like the Hammer Head where the warning s on the HUD and DIVA are controlled by an independently powered and calibrated secondary hand set and the master just controls the deco and the solenoid.

This sort of hanging problem is why i don't like the single hand set on the Vision.

ATB

Mark Chase

AD_ward9 · 9th October 2007, 15:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I may be wrong Peter but i assume the master hand set stopped/froze/hung showing 1.3 and in the middle of firing the solenoid. So the hand sets don't register the problem as they are stuck on 1.3 and the solenoid fires in 02 continuously.

I also assume that with the master frozen on 1.3 no audible alarms will sound. Only the slave will be showing max pp02 but if it doesn't independently control the warning buzzers then its useless unless you happen to look at it.

Your assumptions are all spot on.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

There is an element of diver error surely? A jammed open solenoid would have made a hell of a noise and massively altered buoyancy let alone over inflated the counter lungs.

You know what sounds are like underwater. It is your buddy's inflator!

On bouyancy, depends on the OPV settting. Remember there were no ADVs at the time (when I urged ADVs in 2000 and 2001, the number of people who told me it was dangerous on the Inspo list was overwhelming). Without an ADV, people do not optimise their loop so well in terms of volume.

Alex

9th October 2007, 09:58	#1 (permalink)
Blomman Helium is addictive! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 151	Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? In real life (and not on the internet), how common is it that a solenoid gets stuck in the open position during a dive? // Blomman
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9th October 2007, 10:22	#2 (permalink)
KenStrickland New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Ray Other Rebreather/s: Ray Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town Posts: 15	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? Hi Blomman I have been diving an Inspiration Vision for just under a year and have had the solenoid jam open once. Fortunately, it was not a deep dive and rather than try to control the ppO2 by opening and closing the cylinder, I bailed on OC.
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9th October 2007, 11:54	#3 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by Blomman) In real life (and not on the internet), how common is it that a solenoid gets stuck in the open position during a dive? Not often enough for me personally. None in the past 10 years...
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9th October 2007, 14:39	#4 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? IMPO, this is the most probable explanation for what happened in the following fatal accident: 13/6/00 Ian Swift Hyperoxia Inspiration 41 year old. CNS hit at 43m. Diver tried but failed to bail out before convulsing. Unit had gone back to APD 5 times due to equipment faults. Unit had no working brown out circuit, no watchdog circuit, handsets were prone to hang. Likely the master handset hung with O2 injector on. It is a shame on all of us that sites like Diver Mole state his name and the cause as "User Stupidity", when they have not investigated enough exactly what that unit can do. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 9th October 2007 at 15:01. Reason: Had a brown out circuit that did not work, so editted for accuracy
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9th October 2007, 15:13	#5 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,697	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? The group I dive with had two solenoids jammed open events in one year. both on the Meg. The unit was new that same year. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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9th October 2007, 15:19	#6 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,697	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) IMPO, this is the most probable explanation for what happened in the following fatal accident: 13/6/00 Ian Swift Hyperoxia Inspiration 41 year old. CNS hit at 43m. Diver tried but failed to bail out before convulsing. Unit had gone back to APD 5 times due to equipment faults. Unit had no working brown out circuit, no watchdog circuit, handsets were prone to hang. Likely the master handset hung with O2 injector on. It is a shame on all of us that sites like Diver Mole state his name and the cause as "User Stupidity", when they have not investigated enough exactly what that unit can do. Alex There is an element of diver error surely? A jammed open solenoid would have made a hell of a noise and massively altered buoyancy let alone over inflated the counter lungs. The diver may not have noticed at first and may have taken a hit very quickly if he was deep, but if not, then I would have expected at least a 02 drill and a diluent flush. I have had solenoid issues and mega spiking up to 3.0 PP02 on dives as deep as 65m but they were quickly identified and dealt with. I suppose thats the advantage of an independent HUD to compliment the hand sets. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

9th October 2007, 15:21	#7 (permalink)
Peter M New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 52	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? Right i dont really known enough but please explain as i am sitting in the wings to do mod 1 peter Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) IMPO, this is the most probable explanation for what happened in the following fatal accident: 13/6/00 Ian Swift Hyperoxia Inspiration 41 year old. CNS hit at 43m. Diver tried but failed to bail out before convulsing. Unit had gone back to APD 5 times due to equipment faults. Unit had no working brown out circuit, no watchdog circuit, handsets were prone to hang. Likely the master handset hung with O2 injector on. It is a shame on all of us that sites like Diver Mole state his name and the cause as "User Stupidity", when they have not investigated enough exactly what that unit can do. Alex
(Offline)

9th October 2007, 15:37	#8 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by Peter M) Right i dont really known enough but please explain as i am sitting in the wings to do mod 1 peter So long as you do not buy a second hand unit, your handset has a very low probability of hanging, so do not worry (much). The issue affects Inspos without back lit handsets (pre Sept 2000). Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 9th October 2007 at 17:00. Reason: Spelling
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9th October 2007, 15:38	#9 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,697	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by Peter M) Right i dont really known enough but please explain as i am sitting in the wings to do mod 1 peter I may be wrong Peter but i assume the master hand set stopped/froze/hung showing 1.3 and in the middle of firing the solenoid. So the hand sets don't register the problem as they are stuck on 1.3 and the solenoid fires in 02 continuously. I also assume that with the master frozen on 1.3 no audible alarms will sound. Only the slave will be showing max pp02 but if it doesn't independently control the warning buzzers then its useless unless you happen to look at it. Which of course, you should do every min or so. Other units have better design like the Hammer Head where the warning s on the HUD and DIVA are controlled by an independently powered and calibrated secondary hand set and the master just controls the deco and the solenoid. This sort of hanging problem is why i don't like the single hand set on the Vision. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

9th October 2007, 15:41	#10 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: Stuck solenoid in open position during dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I may be wrong Peter but i assume the master hand set stopped/froze/hung showing 1.3 and in the middle of firing the solenoid. So the hand sets don't register the problem as they are stuck on 1.3 and the solenoid fires in 02 continuously. I also assume that with the master frozen on 1.3 no audible alarms will sound. Only the slave will be showing max pp02 but if it doesn't independently control the warning buzzers then its useless unless you happen to look at it. Your assumptions are all spot on. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) There is an element of diver error surely? A jammed open solenoid would have made a hell of a noise and massively altered buoyancy let alone over inflated the counter lungs. You know what sounds are like underwater. It is your buddy's inflator! On bouyancy, depends on the OPV settting. Remember there were no ADVs at the time (when I urged ADVs in 2000 and 2001, the number of people who told me it was dangerous on the Inspo list was overwhelming). Without an ADV, people do not optimise their loop so well in terms of volume. Alex
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