Vision vs. Optima

**Gill Envy** · 12th July 2007, 21:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Gil, from looking at the pictures and reading Kevin's description of the new HH functions, it seems like the handsets don't "talk" to one another or "hand off", so the 2dry with the deco option would be suitable as a primary as long as a bad solenoid can be disabled, which if I remember correctly the HH allows for. For me, if I were going to go the integrated deco route, I would want absolutely no "talking" or "handing off" btw handsets/controllers-keep it as simple as possible, no added complexity, no fancy computer functions making decisions for me beyond SP control and deco.

Well, there certainly are ECCRs out there which have enough built in redundancy to complete a trip as an MCCR-Mks, Prism, probably Boris, maybe new HH. The problem comes from insisting on integrated deco, which adds complexity for what IMHO, provides little benefit over a stand alone deco comp.

hey Andy, when I say redundancy for continued diving, my comfort zone dictates having two functioning systems at all times, except to end a dive/bail out, if one goes down, it would need repair or another back up. the Optima with the new HH is a good start. The Copis meg, configured with a shearwater GF and independent HUD with the stock handset in place but inactive, allows this, and required very little modification to install since the Copis comes with extra ports already in the head.

to get this on a Vision or Optima (and a Prism too...not sure about a Boris) would require add ons, that was my point. neither comes stock with enough redundancy for me to feel cool about continuing to dive with a malfunctioning primary.

I would happily dive with two po2 only computers and tables...not really keen on using even a passive po2 only system like the meter on the Prism as my only source of po2 for extensive diving.

time will tell if this level of redundancy has exceeded the point of diminishing return. so far, i'm lovin' it! Simple, relatively affordable and truly customizable on into the future.

***jradomski*** · 12th July 2007, 22:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

to get this on a Vision or Optima (and a Prism too...not sure about a Boris) would require add ons, that was my point. neither comes stock with enough redundancy for me to feel cool about continuing to dive with a malfunctioning primary.

a shearwater installed on a COPIS would hardly be stock and the shearwate is an additional purchase.. out of the box (standard copis) the optima would already have more redundancy.. a primary and an independent secondary.. to add a additional level is the simple addition of an intergrated DC (explorer, vr3 or even a shearwater if you wanted).. the port is already there as is the mount for an additional cell which is lacking on the copis as is any way for a 4th cell to sample the same gas (it would have to be in a different location) as the other cells..

**Gill Envy** · 12th July 2007, 22:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

a shearwater installed on a COPIS would hardly be stock and the shearwate is an additional purchase.. out of the box (standard copis) the optima would already have more redundancy.. a primary and an independent secondary.. to add a additional level is the simple addition of an intergrated DC (explorer, vr3 or even a shearwater if you wanted).. the port is already there as is the mount for an additional cell which is lacking on the copis as is any way for a 4th cell to sample the same gas (it would have to be in a different location) as the other cells..

I was not in any way suggesting what I've done was stock...not sure where you got that.

For lack of evidence that sharing cells really can lead to problems i've opted to create a system that has shared cells and can be easily swapped out rather than adding a 4th cell... Joe, it seems that the level of redundancy you focus on is specific to the purposes of ending a dive safely, right? Stock, the Optima and the Vision have that level of redundancy. My current line of thinking is geared toward expeditions and the level of redundancy requisite of such huge investments in time and energy, beyond safety, to provide in-field options for continued safe diving in the event of a malfunction. From what I can tell, a life threatening malfunction is a lot less common than a malfunction that can render the typical rebreather un-divable...at least safely. I've focussed on training and vigilance and style of rebreather to deal with the safety side of things and focussed on design configuration to address the issues of reliability.

Don't mean to diss the Optima, just explaining why I went the direction I have and that there is no way to get the level of redundancy I prefer on any stock unit currently available. If a 4th cell is enough redundancy for your purposes, then yes, the Optima is more suited to that out of the box, than the vision. If you can remove one hand set and replace it with a back up mCCR version, then for sure the optima/hammerhead has the Vision beat in terms of in-field servicability.

ryvor · 12th July 2007, 23:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

Buy a Meg and be done with it.

Sorry had to do it.

Scott

Exactly. Or get the best of both worlds. A HammerMeg. When I originally got my Meg I didn't like the APECs 2 so I sent the Head to Kevin and he fixed me up good. I love the Hammerhead. Leon is going to have to pull out all the stops on the APECs 3 to get me to move over to it when it finally comes out.

***jradomski*** · 13th July 2007, 04:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

I was not in any way suggesting what I've done was stock...not sure where you got that.

For lack of evidence that sharing cells really can lead to problems i've opted to create a system that has shared cells and can be easily swapped out rather than adding a 4th cell... Joe, it seems that the level of redundancy you focus on is specific to the purposes of ending a dive safely, right? Stock, the Optima and the Vision have that level of redundancy. My current line of thinking is geared toward expeditions and the level of redundancy requisite of such huge investments in time and energy, beyond safety, to provide in-field options for continued safe diving in the event of a malfunction. From what I can tell, a life threatening malfunction is a lot less common than a malfunction that can render the typical rebreather un-divable...at least safely. I've focussed on training and vigilance and style of rebreather to deal with the safety side of things and focussed on design configuration to address the issues of reliability.

Don't mean to diss the Optima, just explaining why I went the direction I have and that there is no way to get the level of redundancy I prefer on any stock unit currently available. If a 4th cell is enough redundancy for your purposes, then yes, the Optima is more suited to that out of the box, than the vision. If you can remove one hand set and replace it with a back up mCCR version, then for sure the optima/hammerhead has the Vision beat in terms of in-field servicability.

An Optima or HH insp with an integrated DC has more redundancy than a stock copis (a primary, a 3 cell display plus a single cell display ) as well as a stock KISS, If one of the main electronics fail you still have a 3 cell display plus a DC.. Its only missing a constant injection, which is easy enough to add in.. It only takes a few minutes to disconnect the solenoid from the gas supply and add in an orifice if you wanted (personally for recreational dives I wouldn't, longer planned deco dive I probably would).. I used to cary an "mccr kit" but usually no longer carry one since I usually carry a second set of electronics for trips I think it might be warranted, even though I have never needed to use them..

mriopel · 13th July 2007, 04:48

I think the optima is a very good unit for the type of diving you want to do. I also live in Jacksonville fl, so I know most of the optima divers in this area. You have a good Inst. over in Lake City, (John Jones) for the Optima and Kiss rebreathers or John Conway for the Vision, he is in St Augustine. If you are dealing with James over @ jacksonville scuba, James has JP Jones # Or you can Get my # from Meridian divers. We can get together and you can check out my optima. Sorry you CAN NOT test drive it. I am not a Optima Instr yet. But I may be able to help you ,and can put you in touch with some good Instr's close by.

Mike R

mlrleasing@hotmail.com

**Gill Envy** · 13th July 2007, 05:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

If one of the main electronics fail you still have a 3 cell display plus a DC.

in this scenario you still only have one primary po2 display right? I'm not comparing either the vision or the Optima to a stock Copis...not sure why you keep bringing that up. I want to always have access to two independent forms of po2 monitoring. If one went down, i'd want to have a third to plug in...you cover that scenario by taking a second set of electronics on trips that warrent it... wondering if you mean you take an entire second HH set or just a simple po2 computer.

cool to hear the HH lends itself so well to modification when the chips are down. Definitely not something AP or SDS encourages with the vision. Any brand of rebreather can break, it's really in the best interest of the manufacturer to just admit that and make provisions for such occurences rather than try and act like it never happens.

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Its only missing a constant injection, which is easy enough to add in.. It only takes a few minutes to disconnect the solenoid from the gas supply and add in an orifice if you wanted (personally for recreational dives I wouldn't, longer planned deco dive I probably would).. I used to cary an "mccr kit" but usually no longer carry one since I usually carry a second set of electronics for trips I think it might be warranted, even though I have never needed to use them..

***jradomski*** · 13th July 2007, 05:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

in this scenario you still only have one primary po2 display right? I'm not comparing either the vision or the Optima to a stock Copis...not sure why you keep bringing that up. I want to always have access to two independent forms of po2 monitoring. If one went down, i'd want to have a third to plug in...you cover that scenario by taking a second set of electronics on trips that warrent it... wondering if you mean you take an entire second HH set or just a simple po2 computer.

cool to hear the HH lends itself so well to modification when the chips are down. Definitely not something AP or SDS encourages with the vision. Any brand of rebreather can break, it's really in the best interest of the manufacturer to just admit that and make provisions for such occurences rather than try and act like it never happens.

g

no
the secondary and integrated DC is 2 already forms of po2 monitoring.. the second set would be a complete replacement head if I wanted all 3 po2 independent monitors back with solenoid control..

if someone really wanted the DC could be replaced with another double or triple monitor.. there are several choices available...

silent running · 13th July 2007, 06:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

hey Andy, when I say redundancy for continued diving, my comfort zone dictates having two functioning systems at all times, except to end a dive/bail out, if one goes down, it would need repair or another back up. the Optima with the new HH is a good start. The Copis meg, configured with a shearwater GF and independent HUD with the stock handset in place but inactive, allows this, and required very little modification to install since the Copis comes with extra ports already in the head.

OK Gill, but either 3 cells is enough or it's not. I guess I don't understand why you place so much value on having powered displays. As a back up, I'd much rather have a simpler signal path btw my sensors and my eyes rather than one which always requires batteries, amplifiers, computers and digital displays. Being able to isolate the cells from the high current side of the unit-SP controller, comp, solenoid, HUD-is the only way to properly troubleshoot all the way back to the sensors and sensor harness, and this can be done underwater, during the dive, by turning off the power and checking the needle gage. Having this ability makes me more confident that what I'm seeing on that 2dry gage is accurate, not less confident. Dig it.

I'm fine with using the needle gage to finish a trip, many people dive the Prism and MKs as MCCRs with the "primary" HUD functioning as a 2dry/alarm. Why not? The needle gage has the shortest path to the sensors and all the primary is doing is SP contrrol and powering the HUD, it's "primarily" a convenience. And in an actual electronics failure, I'd much prefer the slightly low res, yet direct info of the needle gage to 9 flickering digits with a bunch of high current powered hardware btw the sensors and my eyes. But to each his own.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

to get this on a Vision or Optima (and a Prism too...not sure about a Boris) would require add ons, that was my point. neither comes stock with enough redundancy for me to feel cool about continuing to dive with a malfunctioning primary.

I would happily dive with two po2 only computers and tables...not really keen on using even a passive po2 only system like the meter on the Prism as my only source of po2 for extensive diving.

We all know that water and electricity don't mix well, so my philosophy is to keep the main high current components of CCR diving isolated from each other-deco computer on my wrist and the SP controller potted in the head-if one floods, it's impossible to cause bad info in the other. Not only is this a bone simple system, it's been totally reliable with no dives missed in hundreds of hrs on 12 overseas "expeditions".

"Primary" and "secondary" are flexable ideas in simple SP only ECCRs such as MKs and the Prism. Once you really understand the way such a system works, your problem solving also becomes simplified. And "simple" and "flexable" are 2 ideas I like more than any others when diving CCR...

**Gill Envy** · 13th July 2007, 15:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

no
the secondary and integrated DC is 2 already forms of po2 monitoring..

Didn't realize you can loose one set of electronics and still have two forms of po2 monitoring... maybe you missed my point or maybe i'm confused about the configuration. In any case, having to take a whole extra head is something i've worked to avoid with the set up I've gone with. if one handset of the HH can be removed and replaced with some kind of simple back up then i'm very impressed. If you have gotten around the issue of tripple redundancy in po2 monitoring by taking an extra head, then great, it's just more of an investment than I was looking to make. I can certainly say that with the vision, that is 60% of the cost of the whole reabreather. Adding a 4th cell adapter would allow for electronics swap without a whole knew head for a much more reasonable outlay than replacing the head. maybe the Optima head is not that expensive.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

if someone really wanted the DC could be replaced with another double or triple monitor.. there are several choices available...

having a flexibility is what it's all about, sounds like the HH/optima provides options out of the box...that's a good thing... while the Vision requires some after market modification. for those who place a high value on the amenities of the vision, moderate after market modification is not that big a deal.

So the moral of the story for me is sh*t happens with any brand of rebreather eventually, you can either prepare for it (in a variety of ways) and hope it never happens or not be prepared and experience significant inconvenience.

Joe, you said something like that to me on a post many moons ago... it took a while to gain the requisite experience to be able to see the wisdom in it.

12th July 2007, 21:42	#21 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Gil, from looking at the pictures and reading Kevin's description of the new HH functions, it seems like the handsets don't "talk" to one another or "hand off", so the 2dry with the deco option would be suitable as a primary as long as a bad solenoid can be disabled, which if I remember correctly the HH allows for. For me, if I were going to go the integrated deco route, I would want absolutely no "talking" or "handing off" btw handsets/controllers-keep it as simple as possible, no added complexity, no fancy computer functions making decisions for me beyond SP control and deco. Well, there certainly are ECCRs out there which have enough built in redundancy to complete a trip as an MCCR-Mks, Prism, probably Boris, maybe new HH. The problem comes from insisting on integrated deco, which adds complexity for what IMHO, provides little benefit over a stand alone deco comp. hey Andy, when I say redundancy for continued diving, my comfort zone dictates having two functioning systems at all times, except to end a dive/bail out, if one goes down, it would need repair or another back up. the Optima with the new HH is a good start. The Copis meg, configured with a shearwater GF and independent HUD with the stock handset in place but inactive, allows this, and required very little modification to install since the Copis comes with extra ports already in the head. to get this on a Vision or Optima (and a Prism too...not sure about a Boris) would require add ons, that was my point. neither comes stock with enough redundancy for me to feel cool about continuing to dive with a malfunctioning primary. I would happily dive with two po2 only computers and tables...not really keen on using even a passive po2 only system like the meter on the Prism as my only source of po2 for extensive diving. time will tell if this level of redundancy has exceeded the point of diminishing return. so far, i'm lovin' it! Simple, relatively affordable and truly customizable on into the future. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 12th July 2007 at 21:47.
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12th July 2007, 22:25	#22 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,010	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) to get this on a Vision or Optima (and a Prism too...not sure about a Boris) would require add ons, that was my point. neither comes stock with enough redundancy for me to feel cool about continuing to dive with a malfunctioning primary. a shearwater installed on a COPIS would hardly be stock and the shearwate is an additional purchase.. out of the box (standard copis) the optima would already have more redundancy.. a primary and an independent secondary.. to add a additional level is the simple addition of an intergrated DC (explorer, vr3 or even a shearwater if you wanted).. the port is already there as is the mount for an additional cell which is lacking on the copis as is any way for a 4th cell to sample the same gas (it would have to be in a different location) as the other cells.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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12th July 2007, 22:59	#23 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) a shearwater installed on a COPIS would hardly be stock and the shearwate is an additional purchase.. out of the box (standard copis) the optima would already have more redundancy.. a primary and an independent secondary.. to add a additional level is the simple addition of an intergrated DC (explorer, vr3 or even a shearwater if you wanted).. the port is already there as is the mount for an additional cell which is lacking on the copis as is any way for a 4th cell to sample the same gas (it would have to be in a different location) as the other cells.. I was not in any way suggesting what I've done was stock...not sure where you got that. For lack of evidence that sharing cells really can lead to problems i've opted to create a system that has shared cells and can be easily swapped out rather than adding a 4th cell... Joe, it seems that the level of redundancy you focus on is specific to the purposes of ending a dive safely, right? Stock, the Optima and the Vision have that level of redundancy. My current line of thinking is geared toward expeditions and the level of redundancy requisite of such huge investments in time and energy, beyond safety, to provide in-field options for continued safe diving in the event of a malfunction. From what I can tell, a life threatening malfunction is a lot less common than a malfunction that can render the typical rebreather un-divable...at least safely. I've focussed on training and vigilance and style of rebreather to deal with the safety side of things and focussed on design configuration to address the issues of reliability. Don't mean to diss the Optima, just explaining why I went the direction I have and that there is no way to get the level of redundancy I prefer on any stock unit currently available. If a 4th cell is enough redundancy for your purposes, then yes, the Optima is more suited to that out of the box, than the vision. If you can remove one hand set and replace it with a back up mCCR version, then for sure the optima/hammerhead has the Vision beat in terms of in-field servicability. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 13th July 2007 at 00:20.
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12th July 2007, 23:28	#24 (permalink)
ryvor Meg Diver Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pompano Beach, FL Posts: 47	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) Buy a Meg and be done with it. Sorry had to do it. Scott Exactly. Or get the best of both worlds. A HammerMeg. When I originally got my Meg I didn't like the APECs 2 so I sent the Head to Kevin and he fixed me up good. I love the Hammerhead. Leon is going to have to pull out all the stops on the APECs 3 to get me to move over to it when it finally comes out.
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13th July 2007, 04:28	#25 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,010	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) I was not in any way suggesting what I've done was stock...not sure where you got that. For lack of evidence that sharing cells really can lead to problems i've opted to create a system that has shared cells and can be easily swapped out rather than adding a 4th cell... Joe, it seems that the level of redundancy you focus on is specific to the purposes of ending a dive safely, right? Stock, the Optima and the Vision have that level of redundancy. My current line of thinking is geared toward expeditions and the level of redundancy requisite of such huge investments in time and energy, beyond safety, to provide in-field options for continued safe diving in the event of a malfunction. From what I can tell, a life threatening malfunction is a lot less common than a malfunction that can render the typical rebreather un-divable...at least safely. I've focussed on training and vigilance and style of rebreather to deal with the safety side of things and focussed on design configuration to address the issues of reliability. Don't mean to diss the Optima, just explaining why I went the direction I have and that there is no way to get the level of redundancy I prefer on any stock unit currently available. If a 4th cell is enough redundancy for your purposes, then yes, the Optima is more suited to that out of the box, than the vision. If you can remove one hand set and replace it with a back up mCCR version, then for sure the optima/hammerhead has the Vision beat in terms of in-field servicability. An Optima or HH insp with an integrated DC has more redundancy than a stock copis (a primary, a 3 cell display plus a single cell display ) as well as a stock KISS, If one of the main electronics fail you still have a 3 cell display plus a DC.. Its only missing a constant injection, which is easy enough to add in.. It only takes a few minutes to disconnect the solenoid from the gas supply and add in an orifice if you wanted (personally for recreational dives I wouldn't, longer planned deco dive I probably would).. I used to cary an "mccr kit" but usually no longer carry one since I usually carry a second set of electronics for trips I think it might be warranted, even though I have never needed to use them.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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13th July 2007, 04:48	#26 (permalink)
mriopel Sadly Missed (RIP) Current Rebreather/s: Optima Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: usa Posts: 167	Re: Vision vs. Optima I think the optima is a very good unit for the type of diving you want to do. I also live in Jacksonville fl, so I know most of the optima divers in this area. You have a good Inst. over in Lake City, (John Jones) for the Optima and Kiss rebreathers or John Conway for the Vision, he is in St Augustine. If you are dealing with James over @ jacksonville scuba, James has JP Jones # Or you can Get my # from Meridian divers. We can get together and you can check out my optima. Sorry you CAN NOT test drive it. I am not a Optima Instr yet. But I may be able to help you ,and can put you in touch with some good Instr's close by. Mike R mlrleasing@hotmail.com
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13th July 2007, 05:33	#27 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) If one of the main electronics fail you still have a 3 cell display plus a DC. in this scenario you still only have one primary po2 display right? I'm not comparing either the vision or the Optima to a stock Copis...not sure why you keep bringing that up. I want to always have access to two independent forms of po2 monitoring. If one went down, i'd want to have a third to plug in...you cover that scenario by taking a second set of electronics on trips that warrent it... wondering if you mean you take an entire second HH set or just a simple po2 computer. cool to hear the HH lends itself so well to modification when the chips are down. Definitely not something AP or SDS encourages with the vision. Any brand of rebreather can break, it's really in the best interest of the manufacturer to just admit that and make provisions for such occurences rather than try and act like it never happens. g Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Its only missing a constant injection, which is easy enough to add in.. It only takes a few minutes to disconnect the solenoid from the gas supply and add in an orifice if you wanted (personally for recreational dives I wouldn't, longer planned deco dive I probably would).. I used to cary an "mccr kit" but usually no longer carry one since I usually carry a second set of electronics for trips I think it might be warranted, even though I have never needed to use them.. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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13th July 2007, 05:53	#28 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,010	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) in this scenario you still only have one primary po2 display right? I'm not comparing either the vision or the Optima to a stock Copis...not sure why you keep bringing that up. I want to always have access to two independent forms of po2 monitoring. If one went down, i'd want to have a third to plug in...you cover that scenario by taking a second set of electronics on trips that warrent it... wondering if you mean you take an entire second HH set or just a simple po2 computer. cool to hear the HH lends itself so well to modification when the chips are down. Definitely not something AP or SDS encourages with the vision. Any brand of rebreather can break, it's really in the best interest of the manufacturer to just admit that and make provisions for such occurences rather than try and act like it never happens. g no the secondary and integrated DC is 2 already forms of po2 monitoring.. the second set would be a complete replacement head if I wanted all 3 po2 independent monitors back with solenoid control.. if someone really wanted the DC could be replaced with another double or triple monitor.. there are several choices available... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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13th July 2007, 06:53	#29 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) hey Andy, when I say redundancy for continued diving, my comfort zone dictates having two functioning systems at all times, except to end a dive/bail out, if one goes down, it would need repair or another back up. the Optima with the new HH is a good start. The Copis meg, configured with a shearwater GF and independent HUD with the stock handset in place but inactive, allows this, and required very little modification to install since the Copis comes with extra ports already in the head. OK Gill, but either 3 cells is enough or it's not. I guess I don't understand why you place so much value on having powered displays. As a back up, I'd much rather have a simpler signal path btw my sensors and my eyes rather than one which always requires batteries, amplifiers, computers and digital displays. Being able to isolate the cells from the high current side of the unit-SP controller, comp, solenoid, HUD-is the only way to properly troubleshoot all the way back to the sensors and sensor harness, and this can be done underwater, during the dive, by turning off the power and checking the needle gage. Having this ability makes me more confident that what I'm seeing on that 2dry gage is accurate, not less confident. Dig it. I'm fine with using the needle gage to finish a trip, many people dive the Prism and MKs as MCCRs with the "primary" HUD functioning as a 2dry/alarm. Why not? The needle gage has the shortest path to the sensors and all the primary is doing is SP contrrol and powering the HUD, it's "primarily" a convenience. And in an actual electronics failure, I'd much prefer the slightly low res, yet direct info of the needle gage to 9 flickering digits with a bunch of high current powered hardware btw the sensors and my eyes. But to each his own. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) to get this on a Vision or Optima (and a Prism too...not sure about a Boris) would require add ons, that was my point. neither comes stock with enough redundancy for me to feel cool about continuing to dive with a malfunctioning primary. I would happily dive with two po2 only computers and tables...not really keen on using even a passive po2 only system like the meter on the Prism as my only source of po2 for extensive diving. We all know that water and electricity don't mix well, so my philosophy is to keep the main high current components of CCR diving isolated from each other-deco computer on my wrist and the SP controller potted in the head-if one floods, it's impossible to cause bad info in the other. Not only is this a bone simple system, it's been totally reliable with no dives missed in hundreds of hrs on 12 overseas "expeditions". "Primary" and "secondary" are flexable ideas in simple SP only ECCRs such as MKs and the Prism. Once you really understand the way such a system works, your problem solving also becomes simplified. And "simple" and "flexable" are 2 ideas I like more than any others when diving CCR... Last edited by silent running : 13th July 2007 at 09:36.
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13th July 2007, 15:36	#30 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Vision vs. Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) no the secondary and integrated DC is 2 already forms of po2 monitoring.. Didn't realize you can loose one set of electronics and still have two forms of po2 monitoring... maybe you missed my point or maybe i'm confused about the configuration. In any case, having to take a whole extra head is something i've worked to avoid with the set up I've gone with. if one handset of the HH can be removed and replaced with some kind of simple back up then i'm very impressed. If you have gotten around the issue of tripple redundancy in po2 monitoring by taking an extra head, then great, it's just more of an investment than I was looking to make. I can certainly say that with the vision, that is 60% of the cost of the whole reabreather. Adding a 4th cell adapter would allow for electronics swap without a whole knew head for a much more reasonable outlay than replacing the head. maybe the Optima head is not that expensive. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) if someone really wanted the DC could be replaced with another double or triple monitor.. there are several choices available... having a flexibility is what it's all about, sounds like the HH/optima provides options out of the box...that's a good thing... while the Vision requires some after market modification. for those who place a high value on the amenities of the vision, moderate after market modification is not that big a deal. So the moral of the story for me is sht happens with any brand of rebreather eventually, you can either prepare for it (in a variety of ways) and hope it never happens or not be prepared and experience significant inconvenience. Joe, you said something like that to me on a post many moons ago... it took a while to gain the requisite experience to be able to see the wisdom in it. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 13th July 2007 at 17:38.*
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