BTS-saw new OMS/Grey Wolf

Dave Sutton

Really. Do tell.

Dave

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Dave Sutton

As is the build quality and all of the design details. The build quality is confidence inspiring. The build quality of the "other rig" is merely humor inspiring. Don't get me started.....

I was an early adapter to the Mark-15, back in the late 70's. Does that mean that all of the rigs that I do design work for now are "Mark-15 copies" because I use all of my prior knowlage when working on a new rig? Most rigs are nothing but a repackaging of prior art with some new features tossed in for good measure.

Maybe we should all just say that "every rebreather is a copy of the Mark-15 except for the: (fill in the differences here)".


Dave

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Dave Sutton

To me, as an engineer, I don't even see things like the physical layout as significant. I'm looking at deeper architectural design features. The Mark-15 v/s Prism electroncs design architecture is identical (and the Prism's pod was originally tested on CCR-1000 platform, which I happen to *own*, remember?). Direct reading secondary. The use of untimed solenoid injection to dump a bolus of 02 from an accumulator with upstream flow restrictor to control accumulator filling rate is identical. The pneumatic diagram is *identical*. Those are the architectural features that I see. I don't see the scrubber and counterlung designs to be anything other than design details.

Here's an example: The Prism and the Meg look a lot like each other. They have zero similarities. They look like each other because the "optical illusion" is dominated by the CL design and the scrubber placement. The Prism and the Mark-15 look *completely* different, but they share a virtually identical design architecure from a gas flow and electronics standpoint.

The rig is not, BTW, an OMS rig. OMS hosted the rig in it's booth.



Dave

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Dave Sutton

Quite agreed.

Guys, you all ought to remember this: What was shown is a prototype. All of the little design details are easy to rearrange. I didn't even look at anything other than the head. *That's* where the design is. The rest are just plug and play stuff that can be changed at the drop of a hat from a design standpoint. Who tore the head down to the last part other than me? If you were not impressed, I'd be surprised.


Dave

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trob09

I guess I was just confused by the half-dozen OMS logos on the unit, including the one cast into the top.

OceanOpportunity

aside from some perceived unit-bashing, I think in general there are some good points being made here, which are the roots of the never-ending design discussion...

1. that there is very little 'truly new' out there. While not clones of existing units per se, a rebreather is a rebreather is a rebreather for the most part, and the differences often times break down to build quality and configuration more than anything (with the exception of proprietary electronics, and truly new scrubber design features like the Boris)

2. that there is not, but perhaps should be an industry standard (backed with some research) for gas injection/flow through the loop to avoid any confusion from unit to unit

3. there is no such thing as the perfect rebreather because they are all intended to be mission-specific which is usually a reflection of designers' past experiences, so as we continue to see 'mix and match' "new units" (which they are not necessarily) from the homebuilders (myself included) there will forever be debates on what and why....our community and the rebreather market is WAY to small to accomodate so many small mfg's and arrive at any industry-wide accepted 'perfect unit'

4. this is all of course part of the fun in being in this little world

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caveseeker7

Well Dave, might just be my wrong due to the rebreather design OMS hosted on pages 2 and 3 of their current catalog. Or the title of this thread.

Maybe I just consider counterlung design and position, as well as scrubber design, gas flow path, gas injection points, sensor position, all those little design details just as important as the electronics layout on a rebreather. Shame on me for being so ignorant, should have become a jet piloting, test piloting, rebreather fiddling, condescenting engineer who knows it all so I can argue on a peer level.

Hope you marked your rig with a big 'X' so you don't accidentally jump into the water with one of those carbon copies on your back.

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Dave Sutton

Naah... no bashing: Just observing as an "educated consumer" and these are my observations from the show:

The Titan was a curiousity. I don't think that anyone would disagree that the no manual add valves idea is, err.... "different". The shell looked like it would last a few days before cracking. This is after physical examination. I was just not all that impressed overall, but there are some little clever parts there, like the small overpressure valve on the bottom of the lung. Nice part.

Ditto the Grey Wolf, it's a work in progress. Many similar "curiousities" but the thing is highly engineered and gets high points for that at least. It's a rugged thing, that's for sure. OMS is going to market, apparently at least. It's a LONG way from being a production rig. But it's heavy duty and that attracted. As for the OMS markins on the one displayed... if I were OMS and was displaying it Id have my logos plastered all over it too.

Never had anything bad to say about the YBOD, they are just so common that they we don't even see them any longer. Just another yellow box on the retailers show-stands. That's not a bad thing, is it? No controversy about them at all. I'd buy one if I needed a rig fast.

Prism? Nice rig, variable build quality, good architecture, essentially a low volume custom rig. This based on *experience* with the parts I have had here from them. Some are good, some terrible. Statement of fact. Evidence lives under my bench. Come and visit.

Optima? Nice rig. Clean integration. Liked it.


Take this in context too: My full time work involves analysis and study of complext techncial systems. I'm not paid to find out what is "good", but what needs improvement. There are lots of things "wrong" with the F/A-18. The F-16's flight control logic system is a curiousity: The difference between the flight laws of G-Rate controller on thre side stick in normal ops but rate controller once established in landing configuration (or air/air refuel mode) is *really* strange to me. There are *1000* problems with the MiG-15. The state of the art Falcon 900EX-EASy that I teach in has many software and hardware "non-optimals". Does identification of these tings comprise "bashing"? Or is it just a technical opinion to be engineered out of "the next closest to perfect thing we build"? Even withit's flaws the F-16 is awesome... the F/A-18 one of the best multirole aircraft ever built, and the MiG-15, with the 1000 things "wrong" is a ball to fly. Identifying areas that can be improved is not "bashing".

I do quite a bit of consulting to various manufacturers, much of it low key. Mainly I consult for manufacturers who's gear function set I *do not* like... meaning that I give advice on what need to be fixed, not what is working. Helps pay the billls. Nothing more, nothing less. Oceanic is going to (A) sell the military HUD mask to tec divers so we have a good gauge mode.and (B) likely change the software in the existing sport mask. Why? Because Dan Emke, President and CEO, who I have knows for 25 years as he used to be our Oceanic sales rep at the shop and I had a serious talk about it at BTS... . So, somebody is paying attention!


Best,

Dave

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Dave Sutton

Guys, OMS doesn't design or make rebreathers. They print catalogs...

They *would* have printed a catalog with the Topaz in it, if Pete had actually sent them some! Talk to John at OMS if you want to know more.


Best,

Dave

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onetime

Well, I didn't tear it down but watched as it was torn down. I was impressed. the four sensors, the locking ring holding them in, the covers separating the electronic pods all very nice. The build quality was quite impressive.