Colkan Eagle

decoweenie · 21st March 2007, 08:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

have posted some shots of the Eagle in the gallery

Thanks.

Glad to see that the upper-tank valve is pointed down instead of sideway like the BMR-500. That explains why the reach wasn't hard.

When someone got a chance to dive it, please update about its natural trim tendency (i.e. is it butt-heavy). Yes, I understand that weight could be added to adjust, but I rather not wear/carry/lift extra weight if/when I don't have to...

marekm · 21st March 2007, 10:43

Hi Ron,

Thankyou for raising some important questions about this unit that are worth addressing. I've considered the issues you pointed out and found a few workaround modifications to overcome them:

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

also they had not provided a place for a 4th cell, but alluded they may be doing that. Are you or are you not? simple question.

I could probably install a 4th cell holder in a CL or some other part othe rig if I need to and if the the unit does not come with one.

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

again, according to Colin, the backlight sucks juice and will significantly deplete the battery, I asked why it was set up so that you couldnt turn the BL on during the dive, he retorted with "dont you carry a dive torch?" Sorry that was a salesman talking around the poor design features and you, dave, are defending a poor design. Question, if this was something alien to you and not your best remembered design from the warm fuzzy past, would you be defending it quite so much? There should be a way to turn the BL on During a dive, not have to decide it Prior to the dive, that is just plain lazy design and stupid. How about a tap sensor? Colin said they didnt want any switches to pierce the hull of the PO2 meter, but then they put this silly hole in the back for calibration that REQUIRES the diver to break the seal into a unit that is NOT potted (I asked) every dive that either needs calibration, or you decide to change the state of the Backlight.

The KISS PO2 displays have also have switch inside them to turn the back light on or off when changing the battery, not something you do often. I agree that it is not the best design (for example, my PO2 meters use a magnet free mechanical switch that does not break the seal and allows the BL to be turned on or off underwater), but it is a minor issue really that teh KISS divers seem to accept and can probably be modified with a magnetic reed switch if it gets too annoying. The lack of potting for the electronics might be overcome if they are filled with parafin oil.

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

this is however a bad thing for the oxygen side, with 200 bar on the manual inject valve, how much oxygen do you think is going to flow into the rig when one hits the button at depth....hmmm, Im dont have the flow rates or hose diameters, but Im going to hazzard a guess and say more than I would like, a lot more..

To overcome this I could try installing a high pressure snubber just upstream of the manual O2 injection valve.

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

I have pointed out quite a few problems with this unit, I was the red headed stepchild in the crowd, Colin was not happy with the questions I asked and tried very hard to brush them off, rather than explain with logic and design principles, he weaved and dodged like Bill Clinton at an inquiry. I wasnt tryin to shoot this down, honest, but I tend to ask questions and when I dont get good answers, I tend to start digging deeper.

As much as manufactureres don't like it, I still think it is a good idea to ask the tough questions, if only to find things that can be improved upon. Furthermore, I have yet to find a commercial rebreather unit that has everthing I'm looking for in a rebreather. Howeverm I am willing to buy an off the shelf unit and if possible, modify it to be closer to what I want.

Cheers.
-Marek

jmhardingjr · 21st March 2007, 15:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm)

To overcome this I could try installing a high pressure snubber just upstream of the manual O2 injection valve.

Then your flows slows to a mere trickle when you are working with the proper intermediate pressure.

marekm · 21st March 2007, 16:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmhardingjr)

Then your flows slows to a mere trickle when you are working with the proper intermediate pressure.

I just received some snubbers today, so I'll test this theory out and get some solid data. Perhaps a trickle of O2 (assuming it will be enough of a trickle) when using a snubber during normal operation in the shallows is better than a torrent of O2 at depth when the O2 regulator fails without an inline snubber.

**Dave Sutton** · 21st March 2007, 16:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm)

I just received some snubbers today, so I'll test this theory out and get some solid data. Perhaps a trickle of O2 (assuming it will be enough of a trickle) when using a snubber during normal operation in the shallows is better than a torrent of O2 at depth when the O2 regulator fails without an inline snubber.

On a Schreader valve, what we are discussing here, there is no "torrent" of gas even at 3000 PSI. It's just a basic manual flow.... you can only get gas thru that orifice at sonic velocity....

Dave

koputai · 21st March 2007, 23:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm)

I could probably install a 4th cell holder in a CL or some other part othe rig if I need to and if the the unit does not come with one.

You can't add anything to the counterlung in this set up, just like the Mk series. The counterlung is an integral part of the ADV and OPV system and must be able to move as it's designed to.

Quote:

can probably be modified with a magnetic reed switch if it gets too annoying.

Nope, magnetic reed switches are too unreliable. Just ask any PRISM owner or many classic Inspo owners. These switches break or fail to operate. There are better solutions, and they are being trialed.

Quote:

The lack of potting for the electronics might be overcome if they are filled with parafin oil.

Fill that display with parafin oil and it's ruined. Parafin oil is only put inside housings that are a bit suspect as to their ability to cope with the pressure at depth. The displays in question are tested to over 600 metres in a wet chamber, there is no need for parafin filling.

Quote:

To overcome this I could try installing a high pressure snubber just upstream of the manual O2 injection valve.

As per Dave above. Schareder valves are very controllable, even under high pressure.

Quote:

As much as manufacturers don't like it, I still think it is a good idea to ask the tough questions, if only to find things that can be improved upon.

Absolutey, I agree 100%. Most manufacturers agree too, and take comments on board. Hey, if it has the potential to make their product better, why wouldn't they.

Cheers,
Jason.

**Dave Sutton** · 21st March 2007, 23:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai)

Most manufacturers agree too, and take comments on board. Hey, if it has the potential to make their product better, why wouldn't they.

You just don't do it in an adversarial way at a public gathering. Based on a few comments I got from guys who were listening to Col, a certain "Rebreather World Member not from Oz" didn't score any points at the presentation for public courtesy. Praise in public, and criticize in private. If there are constructive comments to make, especially on a trials rig, it's probably best to note them, and send a letter or email to discuss. Just a little plain courtesy goes a long way.

Dave

SteveL · 22nd March 2007, 03:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm)

Furthermore, I have yet to find a commercial rebreather unit that has everthing I'm looking for in a rebreather. Howeverm I am willing to buy an off the shelf unit and if possible, modify it to be closer to what I want.

Cheers.
-Marek

Mark - I agree (spot on) I dont think it is possible to produce a Rebreather that will suit ALL of the people ALL of the time - Heck even one person might dive 30m alot but want to do some 150m excursions - one RB setup might be serious overkill on one hand and dangerously underkill on the other.

So I agree if a unit is close as possible to what you are looking for than probably it is the best unit for you. It can then be adapted for your style.

Its the one eye approach - the my unit is better than yours ad nausum BS that really is pathetic.

I and I'm sure most people can shoot holes in most Rebreather's on the market. But there are many good and capable units on the market - so there is no "best" in my view.

Will keep the board posted as to the developments

Regards,

S

SteveL · 22nd March 2007, 03:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

You just don't do it in an adversarial way at a public gathering. Based on a few comments I got from guys who were listening to Col, a certain "Rebreather World Member not from Oz" didn't score any points at the presentation for public courtesy. Praise in public, and criticize in private. If there are constructive comments to make, especially on a trials rig, it's probably best to note them, and send a letter or email to discuss. Just a little plain courtesy goes a long way.

Dave

Well said Dave

S

acanthaster · 22nd March 2007, 06:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by SteveL)

Yes - It is loosely based around a biopak 60 - although the scrubber has been changed (increased) so it has an assumed 4 hrs duration - so more the size of a biopak 240- but it's not one.

There is a new scrubber and lid on the drawing board that will allow just under 4kg sorb about 8.5lbs but getting the unit as seen right first is the priority.

Now for the muppet questions. What is the current size of the scrubber to assume a 4hr life?? And if the 4kg scrubber does materialise, what kind of duration would you expect from something of that size??

I haven't seen a pic of the primary display, or is it assumed that you will plug a VR3 in as the primary?? (talking the mCCR version here)

Not happy with my efforts last weekend. I looked at the eagle and thought it looked very MK15'ish, so assumed it would cost a small fortune. Ended up at the KISS stand instead. Ooops

21st March 2007, 08:40	#41 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) have posted some shots of the Eagle in the gallery Thanks. Glad to see that the upper-tank valve is pointed down instead of sideway like the BMR-500. That explains why the reach wasn't hard. When someone got a chance to dive it, please update about its natural trim tendency (i.e. is it butt-heavy). Yes, I understand that weight could be added to adjust, but I rather not wear/carry/lift extra weight if/when I don't have to... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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21st March 2007, 10:43	#42 (permalink)
marekm Banned Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 196	Re: Colkan Eagle Hi Ron, Thankyou for raising some important questions about this unit that are worth addressing. I've considered the issues you pointed out and found a few workaround modifications to overcome them: Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) also they had not provided a place for a 4th cell, but alluded they may be doing that. Are you or are you not? simple question. I could probably install a 4th cell holder in a CL or some other part othe rig if I need to and if the the unit does not come with one. Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) again, according to Colin, the backlight sucks juice and will significantly deplete the battery, I asked why it was set up so that you couldnt turn the BL on during the dive, he retorted with "dont you carry a dive torch?" Sorry that was a salesman talking around the poor design features and you, dave, are defending a poor design. Question, if this was something alien to you and not your best remembered design from the warm fuzzy past, would you be defending it quite so much? There should be a way to turn the BL on During a dive, not have to decide it Prior to the dive, that is just plain lazy design and stupid. How about a tap sensor? Colin said they didnt want any switches to pierce the hull of the PO2 meter, but then they put this silly hole in the back for calibration that REQUIRES the diver to break the seal into a unit that is NOT potted (I asked) every dive that either needs calibration, or you decide to change the state of the Backlight. The KISS PO2 displays have also have switch inside them to turn the back light on or off when changing the battery, not something you do often. I agree that it is not the best design (for example, my PO2 meters use a magnet free mechanical switch that does not break the seal and allows the BL to be turned on or off underwater), but it is a minor issue really that teh KISS divers seem to accept and can probably be modified with a magnetic reed switch if it gets too annoying. The lack of potting for the electronics might be overcome if they are filled with parafin oil. Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) this is however a bad thing for the oxygen side, with 200 bar on the manual inject valve, how much oxygen do you think is going to flow into the rig when one hits the button at depth....hmmm, Im dont have the flow rates or hose diameters, but Im going to hazzard a guess and say more than I would like, a lot more.. To overcome this I could try installing a high pressure snubber just upstream of the manual O2 injection valve. Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) I have pointed out quite a few problems with this unit, I was the red headed stepchild in the crowd, Colin was not happy with the questions I asked and tried very hard to brush them off, rather than explain with logic and design principles, he weaved and dodged like Bill Clinton at an inquiry. I wasnt tryin to shoot this down, honest, but I tend to ask questions and when I dont get good answers, I tend to start digging deeper. As much as manufactureres don't like it, I still think it is a good idea to ask the tough questions, if only to find things that can be improved upon. Furthermore, I have yet to find a commercial rebreather unit that has everthing I'm looking for in a rebreather. Howeverm I am willing to buy an off the shelf unit and if possible, modify it to be closer to what I want. Cheers. -Marek Last edited by marekm : 21st March 2007 at 10:44. Reason: fixed some spelling errors
(Offline)

21st March 2007, 15:11	#43 (permalink)
jmhardingjr Son of a Sailor Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: . . . this one particular harbor . . . Posts: 196	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm) To overcome this I could try installing a high pressure snubber just upstream of the manual O2 injection valve. Then your flows slows to a mere trickle when you are working with the proper intermediate pressure. __________________ ". . . the sea's in my veins, my tradition remains, I'm just glad I don't live in a trailer . . ."
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21st March 2007, 16:06	#44 (permalink)
marekm Banned Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 196	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by jmhardingjr) Then your flows slows to a mere trickle when you are working with the proper intermediate pressure. I just received some snubbers today, so I'll test this theory out and get some solid data. Perhaps a trickle of O2 (assuming it will be enough of a trickle) when using a snubber during normal operation in the shallows is better than a torrent of O2 at depth when the O2 regulator fails without an inline snubber.
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21st March 2007, 16:48	#45 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Living on Animal Farm Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,464	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm) I just received some snubbers today, so I'll test this theory out and get some solid data. Perhaps a trickle of O2 (assuming it will be enough of a trickle) when using a snubber during normal operation in the shallows is better than a torrent of O2 at depth when the O2 regulator fails without an inline snubber. On a Schreader valve, what we are discussing here, there is no "torrent" of gas even at 3000 PSI. It's just a basic manual flow.... you can only get gas thru that orifice at sonic velocity.... Dave __________________ . "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" Professional Small Boy: Never Successfully Cubicled.
(Online)

21st March 2007, 23:10	#46 (permalink)
koputai Subsea Systems Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 300	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm) I could probably install a 4th cell holder in a CL or some other part othe rig if I need to and if the the unit does not come with one. You can't add anything to the counterlung in this set up, just like the Mk series. The counterlung is an integral part of the ADV and OPV system and must be able to move as it's designed to. Quote: can probably be modified with a magnetic reed switch if it gets too annoying. Nope, magnetic reed switches are too unreliable. Just ask any PRISM owner or many classic Inspo owners. These switches break or fail to operate. There are better solutions, and they are being trialed. Quote: The lack of potting for the electronics might be overcome if they are filled with parafin oil. Fill that display with parafin oil and it's ruined. Parafin oil is only put inside housings that are a bit suspect as to their ability to cope with the pressure at depth. The displays in question are tested to over 600 metres in a wet chamber, there is no need for parafin filling. Quote: To overcome this I could try installing a high pressure snubber just upstream of the manual O2 injection valve. As per Dave above. Schareder valves are very controllable, even under high pressure. Quote: As much as manufacturers don't like it, I still think it is a good idea to ask the tough questions, if only to find things that can be improved upon. Absolutey, I agree 100%. Most manufacturers agree too, and take comments on board. Hey, if it has the potential to make their product better, why wouldn't they. Cheers, Jason.
(Online)

21st March 2007, 23:16	#47 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Living on Animal Farm Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,464	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai) Most manufacturers agree too, and take comments on board. Hey, if it has the potential to make their product better, why wouldn't they. You just don't do it in an adversarial way at a public gathering. Based on a few comments I got from guys who were listening to Col, a certain "Rebreather World Member not from Oz" didn't score any points at the presentation for public courtesy. Praise in public, and criticize in private. If there are constructive comments to make, especially on a trials rig, it's probably best to note them, and send a letter or email to discuss. Just a little plain courtesy goes a long way. Dave __________________ . "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" Professional Small Boy: Never Successfully Cubicled.
(Online)

22nd March 2007, 03:22	#48 (permalink)
SteveL Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 221	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by marekm) Furthermore, I have yet to find a commercial rebreather unit that has everthing I'm looking for in a rebreather. Howeverm I am willing to buy an off the shelf unit and if possible, modify it to be closer to what I want. Cheers. -Marek Mark - I agree (spot on) I dont think it is possible to produce a Rebreather that will suit ALL of the people ALL of the time - Heck even one person might dive 30m alot but want to do some 150m excursions - one RB setup might be serious overkill on one hand and dangerously underkill on the other. So I agree if a unit is close as possible to what you are looking for than probably it is the best unit for you. It can then be adapted for your style. Its the one eye approach - the my unit is better than yours ad nausum BS that really is pathetic. I and I'm sure most people can shoot holes in most Rebreather's on the market. But there are many good and capable units on the market - so there is no "best" in my view. Will keep the board posted as to the developments Regards, S
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22nd March 2007, 03:25	#49 (permalink)
SteveL Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 221	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) You just don't do it in an adversarial way at a public gathering. Based on a few comments I got from guys who were listening to Col, a certain "Rebreather World Member not from Oz" didn't score any points at the presentation for public courtesy. Praise in public, and criticize in private. If there are constructive comments to make, especially on a trials rig, it's probably best to note them, and send a letter or email to discuss. Just a little plain courtesy goes a long way. Dave Well said Dave S
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22nd March 2007, 06:00	#50 (permalink)
acanthaster New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Oz Posts: 5	Re: Colkan Eagle Quote: (Originally Posted by SteveL) Yes - It is loosely based around a biopak 60 - although the scrubber has been changed (increased) so it has an assumed 4 hrs duration - so more the size of a biopak 240- but it's not one. There is a new scrubber and lid on the drawing board that will allow just under 4kg sorb about 8.5lbs but getting the unit as seen right first is the priority. Now for the muppet questions. What is the current size of the scrubber to assume a 4hr life?? And if the 4kg scrubber does materialise, what kind of duration would you expect from something of that size?? I haven't seen a pic of the primary display, or is it assumed that you will plug a VR3 in as the primary?? (talking the mCCR version here) Not happy with my efforts last weekend. I looked at the eagle and thought it looked very MK15'ish, so assumed it would cost a small fortune. Ended up at the KISS stand instead. Ooops
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