ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear

Andy M · 21st November 2006, 06:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

The ESD issue is an interesting one but let me posit something - how do you get ESD in a condensing humidity environment?

Can we keep the thread on topic? The ESD issue should be discussed in the original thread as it will get lost here. perhaps time for this to be closed?

mstroeck · 21st November 2006, 07:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M)

Can we keep the thread on topic? The ESD issue should be discussed in the original thread as it will get lost here. perhaps time for this to be closed?

<sarcasm>What was the very important topic of this thread again? </sarcasm>

CharlieT · 21st November 2006, 09:26

I wouldn't wish anyone to feel inhibited about posting on Rebreather World as this would surely be counter-productive so we should welcome Rick's straightforward approach with the exception of that F word.

Again, like many others I suspect, I don't begin to understand whether Alex Deas is a brilliant guy or just full of crap.

I understand from this post that he's developing a CCR unit? Good for him if this is the case and if it's an uber unit that is greatly superior to the Inspiration, Boris and the Meg, fantastic.

But when will this unit or the head that was meant to be at the Birmingham dive show (Mark Chase's post) be available to us CCR users?

It's always much easier to "slam into everyone else's gear" than produce a viable commercially available alternative that is markedly superior whilst still being available at a price that is accessible to most of us.

I paid £5,400 for a fully specced Inspiration Vision, I would have gone to an a max of £6,500 for a really superior unit but at £15,000+ I (and many others) cannot (or will not) afford the step to CCR. There are plenty of CCR users still safely and enjoyably diving their 2nd hand Inspiration Classics who would never have gotten into CCR if the purchase price hadn't been reasonable. Mark, does this include you?

At £5,400, I could then afford 3 1:1 IANTD courses with Rich Stevenson and Martin Robson. I could also afford to buy a single piece harness and an Agir backplate losing the AP padding, weightpockets, harness and various assorted straps. All great improvements after I had become a more competent user.

Without a plentiful supply of sensibly priced units, how would CCR use have developed in the way it has? Would Rebreather World exist?

It is good that we actively criticise the manufacturers of CCR units as this will keep them on their toes, improve quality and encourage development. But we also need units in the marketplace NOW not a "best of the best " unit that might never appear.

Charlie

**PhilSiswick** · 21st November 2006, 10:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

I wouldn't wish anyone to feel inhibited about posting on Rebreather World as this would surely be counter-productive so we should welcome Rick's straightforward approach with the exception of that F word.

Again, like many others I suspect, I don't begin to understand whether Alex Deas is a brilliant guy or just full of crap.

I understand from this post that he's developing a CCR unit? Good for him if this is the case and if it's an uber unit that is greatly superior to the Inspiration, Boris and the Meg, fantastic.

But when will this unit or the head that was meant to be at the Birmingham dive show (Mark Chase's post) be available to us CCR users?

It's always much easier to "slam into everyone else's gear" than produce a viable commercially available alternative that is markedly superior whilst still being available at a price that is accessible to most of us.

Alex has put himself into a difficult position, trying to play the role of Cassandra about the kit that we are diving and at the same time being a manufacturer aiming to be in direct competition with the incumbents. That devalues his message and opens him up to the criticisms in this post. To be really effective in either, he's going to have to decide to be one or the other

Quote:

Without a plentiful supply of sensibly priced units, how would CCR use have developed in the way it has? Would Rebreather World exist?

It is good that we actively criticise the manufacturers of CCR units as this will keep them on their toes, improve quality and encourage development. But we also need units in the marketplace NOW not a "best of the best " unit that might never appear.

Agree entirely.

Cheers,

Genesis · 21st November 2006, 13:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

Alex has put himself into a difficult position, trying to play the role of Cassandra about the kit that we are diving and at the same time being a manufacturer aiming to be in direct competition with the incumbents. That devalues his message and opens him up to the criticisms in this post. To be really effective in either, he's going to have to decide to be one or the other

I don't really agree with that.

There's nothing wrong with being critical of your competition - so long as you have something to show for it!

Its like a political argument - you can say "that person sucks" all you want, and that's easy. The hard part is putting forward a workable plan to make things better, and then figuring out how to execute it without getting all the undesirable (and unintended) consequences!

THAT's hard.

I like what Alex is working on, but if the boxes they're working to produce end up being $30,000+, then it is completely irrelavent to the sport-diving marketplace. Kit designed and sold to either the commercial deep-diving (e.g. offshore oil companies) or military (we have unlimited money we can steal from our citizens) markets has almost zero relavence to the sport marketplace (we have limited funds and when the kit costs more than a car, it doesn't sell - at all.)

Now if he can figure out how to do this and get them on the market for $5,000 (for real, instead of the nonsense that at least one manufacturer spewed for a year before actually marketing their unit at $8500 - the final "as sold" price being seventy percent over the original claim) then he's got something for sure.

Somewhere in the middle there's probably a market as well - just not as big a one as he might think.

The real issue is total cost of ownership. Many classic inspiration owners are finding out that the TCO is a lot higher than they thought due to what looks a LOT like intentional breakdown caused by certain design decisions (e.g. untinned copper wiring exposed to the loop, handset "cracks", etc)

All these sensors and complexity is very nice, but it can radically raise the TCO of the unit, because many of these items have either a service life or the potential to fail on their own. Anything that is proprietary can be priced however the single-source seller wishes. This is one of my issues with essentially all of the current factory builds, as the Inspiration folks are discovering (too late) as well - suddenly a routine annual service ends up being a $1500 unplanned adventure, because you're charged $500 for a couple of pieces of plastic that had a cost of production of $10. Why? Because they can.

One of the reasons I built the K1 was to get rid of the hidden TCO issues. I built it, I can fix it - and I know what it costs to fix since I built it in the first place!

Chris · 21st November 2006, 14:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

If you want to tell somebody they are doing it wrong, tell them how to do it right. if the gear is broken, how is it broken and how should i fix it?

rick

Ohh how very DIR of you

Did you do lunch with JJ and GI ?

Cheers
Chriso

Ben Field · 21st November 2006, 14:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

There's nothing wrong with being critical of your competition - so long as you have something to show for it!

Maybe, maybe... but how often do Kevin (either of them), Martin, Kim (formerly Gordon), and Peter chip in to point out the faults (as they see them) in their competitors?

By "commenting" on other manufacturers maybe you can chisel out a niche for yourself but at what cost?

I'd rather read test reports and make my own conclusions than be told things are "bad" from a potentially biased position.

**PhilSiswick** · 21st November 2006, 15:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

Maybe, maybe... but how often do Kevin (either of them), Martin, Kim (formerly Gordon), and Peter chip in to point out the faults (as they see them) in their competitors?

By "commenting" on other manufacturers maybe you can chisel out a niche for yourself but at what cost?

I'd rather read test reports and make my own conclusions than be told things are "bad" from a potentially biased position.

There's also the issue that 'comparative advertising' (i.e. making your products look better by slagging off other the competitor's) is not as accepted as a business practice in Europe as it is in the US. It certainly was illegal in some countries as recently as a few years ago, but that may well have changed.

He may want to watch out - a European manufacturer may have good protection, quite aside from the fact that this somewhat dilutes the value of his message. I certainly think that the workarounds and/or safeguards for the problems he has identified are much simpler and cheaper than he indicates.

Cheers,

Faceless · 21st November 2006, 16:52

Personal insults are good for childish fighting, but not for scientific discussion.

To the topic: here is the link to the official document regarding evaluation being made against PSR-11-33-NM sensor model from Navies.

Read it carefully, i hope it will make things more clear.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTR...c=GetTRDoc.pdf

Andy M · 21st November 2006, 17:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless)

To the topic: here is the link to the official document regarding evaluation being made against PSR-11-33-NM sensor model from Navies.

Read it carefully, i hope it will make things more clear.

Well, I read it, and it says that the sensors have exactly the same performance.

Your point is?

Andy

21st November 2006, 06:40	#31 (permalink)
Andy M Dude Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 415	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) The ESD issue is an interesting one but let me posit something - how do you get ESD in a condensing humidity environment? Can we keep the thread on topic? The ESD issue should be discussed in the original thread as it will get lost here. perhaps time for this to be closed? __________________ Know your PO2 at all times
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21st November 2006, 07:05	#32 (permalink)
mstroeck New Member Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 32	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M) Can we keep the thread on topic? The ESD issue should be discussed in the original thread as it will get lost here. perhaps time for this to be closed? <sarcasm>What was the very important topic of this thread again? </sarcasm> Last edited by mstroeck : 21st November 2006 at 07:18.
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21st November 2006, 09:26	#33 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear I wouldn't wish anyone to feel inhibited about posting on Rebreather World as this would surely be counter-productive so we should welcome Rick's straightforward approach with the exception of that F word. Again, like many others I suspect, I don't begin to understand whether Alex Deas is a brilliant guy or just full of crap. I understand from this post that he's developing a CCR unit? Good for him if this is the case and if it's an uber unit that is greatly superior to the Inspiration, Boris and the Meg, fantastic. But when will this unit or the head that was meant to be at the Birmingham dive show (Mark Chase's post) be available to us CCR users? It's always much easier to "slam into everyone else's gear" than produce a viable commercially available alternative that is markedly superior whilst still being available at a price that is accessible to most of us. I paid £5,400 for a fully specced Inspiration Vision, I would have gone to an a max of £6,500 for a really superior unit but at £15,000+ I (and many others) cannot (or will not) afford the step to CCR. There are plenty of CCR users still safely and enjoyably diving their 2nd hand Inspiration Classics who would never have gotten into CCR if the purchase price hadn't been reasonable. Mark, does this include you? At £5,400, I could then afford 3 1:1 IANTD courses with Rich Stevenson and Martin Robson. I could also afford to buy a single piece harness and an Agir backplate losing the AP padding, weightpockets, harness and various assorted straps. All great improvements after I had become a more competent user. Without a plentiful supply of sensibly priced units, how would CCR use have developed in the way it has? Would Rebreather World exist? It is good that we actively criticise the manufacturers of CCR units as this will keep them on their toes, improve quality and encourage development. But we also need units in the marketplace NOW not a "best of the best " unit that might never appear. Charlie
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21st November 2006, 10:32	#34 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 921	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) I wouldn't wish anyone to feel inhibited about posting on Rebreather World as this would surely be counter-productive so we should welcome Rick's straightforward approach with the exception of that F word. Again, like many others I suspect, I don't begin to understand whether Alex Deas is a brilliant guy or just full of crap. I understand from this post that he's developing a CCR unit? Good for him if this is the case and if it's an uber unit that is greatly superior to the Inspiration, Boris and the Meg, fantastic. But when will this unit or the head that was meant to be at the Birmingham dive show (Mark Chase's post) be available to us CCR users? It's always much easier to "slam into everyone else's gear" than produce a viable commercially available alternative that is markedly superior whilst still being available at a price that is accessible to most of us. Alex has put himself into a difficult position, trying to play the role of Cassandra about the kit that we are diving and at the same time being a manufacturer aiming to be in direct competition with the incumbents. That devalues his message and opens him up to the criticisms in this post. To be really effective in either, he's going to have to decide to be one or the other Quote: Without a plentiful supply of sensibly priced units, how would CCR use have developed in the way it has? Would Rebreather World exist? It is good that we actively criticise the manufacturers of CCR units as this will keep them on their toes, improve quality and encourage development. But we also need units in the marketplace NOW not a "best of the best " unit that might never appear. Agree entirely. Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

21st November 2006, 13:49	#35 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) Alex has put himself into a difficult position, trying to play the role of Cassandra about the kit that we are diving and at the same time being a manufacturer aiming to be in direct competition with the incumbents. That devalues his message and opens him up to the criticisms in this post. To be really effective in either, he's going to have to decide to be one or the other I don't really agree with that. There's nothing wrong with being critical of your competition - so long as you have something to show for it! Its like a political argument - you can say "that person sucks" all you want, and that's easy. The hard part is putting forward a workable plan to make things better, and then figuring out how to execute it without getting all the undesirable (and unintended) consequences! THAT's hard. I like what Alex is working on, but if the boxes they're working to produce end up being $30,000+, then it is completely irrelavent to the sport-diving marketplace. Kit designed and sold to either the commercial deep-diving (e.g. offshore oil companies) or military (we have unlimited money we can steal from our citizens) markets has almost zero relavence to the sport marketplace (we have limited funds and when the kit costs more than a car, it doesn't sell - at all.) Now if he can figure out how to do this and get them on the market for $5,000 (for real, instead of the nonsense that at least one manufacturer spewed for a year before actually marketing their unit at $8500 - the final "as sold" price being seventy percent over the original claim) then he's got something for sure. Somewhere in the middle there's probably a market as well - just not as big a one as he might think. The real issue is total cost of ownership. Many classic inspiration owners are finding out that the TCO is a lot higher than they thought due to what looks a LOT like intentional breakdown caused by certain design decisions (e.g. untinned copper wiring exposed to the loop, handset "cracks", etc) All these sensors and complexity is very nice, but it can radically raise the TCO of the unit, because many of these items have either a service life or the potential to fail on their own. Anything that is proprietary can be priced however the single-source seller wishes. This is one of my issues with essentially all of the current factory builds, as the Inspiration folks are discovering (too late) as well - suddenly a routine annual service ends up being a $1500 unplanned adventure, because you're charged $500 for a couple of pieces of plastic that had a cost of production of $10. Why? Because they can. One of the reasons I built the K1 was to get rid of the hidden TCO issues. I built it, I can fix it - and I know what it costs to fix since I built it in the first place! __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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21st November 2006, 14:24	#36 (permalink)
Chris Go Nude Or Go Home Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 607	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr) If you want to tell somebody they are doing it wrong, tell them how to do it right. if the gear is broken, how is it broken and how should i fix it? rick Ohh how very DIR of you Did you do lunch with JJ and GI ? Cheers Chriso __________________ Megalodon Sorb and Sensors whilst in Australia www.divetub.com.au Diving & Photography @ www.uwphotog.com
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21st November 2006, 14:39	#37 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,569	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) There's nothing wrong with being critical of your competition - so long as you have something to show for it! Maybe, maybe... but how often do Kevin (either of them), Martin, Kim (formerly Gordon), and Peter chip in to point out the faults (as they see them) in their competitors? By "commenting" on other manufacturers maybe you can chisel out a niche for yourself but at what cost? I'd rather read test reports and make my own conclusions than be told things are "bad" from a potentially biased position. __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
(Online)

21st November 2006, 15:19	#38 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 921	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) Maybe, maybe... but how often do Kevin (either of them), Martin, Kim (formerly Gordon), and Peter chip in to point out the faults (as they see them) in their competitors? By "commenting" on other manufacturers maybe you can chisel out a niche for yourself but at what cost? I'd rather read test reports and make my own conclusions than be told things are "bad" from a potentially biased position. There's also the issue that 'comparative advertising' (i.e. making your products look better by slagging off other the competitor's) is not as accepted as a business practice in Europe as it is in the US. It certainly was illegal in some countries as recently as a few years ago, but that may well have changed. He may want to watch out - a European manufacturer may have good protection, quite aside from the fact that this somewhat dilutes the value of his message. I certainly think that the workarounds and/or safeguards for the problems he has identified are much simpler and cheaper than he indicates. Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

21st November 2006, 16:52	#39 (permalink)
Faceless alone lurking in wrecks Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: France, Montpellier Posts: 92	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Personal insults are good for childish fighting, but not for scientific discussion. To the topic: here is the link to the official document regarding evaluation being made against PSR-11-33-NM sensor model from Navies. Read it carefully, i hope it will make things more clear. http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTR...c=GetTRDoc.pdf __________________ Peoples risk perception is almost always focused on the most dramatic rather than the most probable. (c) Gordon Smith
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21st November 2006, 17:19	#40 (permalink)
Andy M Dude Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 415	Re: ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless) To the topic: here is the link to the official document regarding evaluation being made against PSR-11-33-NM sensor model from Navies. Read it carefully, i hope it will make things more clear. Well, I read it, and it says that the sensors have exactly the same performance. Your point is? Andy __________________ Know your PO2 at all times
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