ad_ward9 slamming everyone elses gear

rdmmdr

dave
i will remove any questionable content but the main post will stay. untill alex can prove his claims in public, he should not make them. put up or shut up.
rick

Genesis

I think Alex has a lot of really neat ideas.

Of course I think a Mk15 is a really neat piece of kit too, but that doens't mean that I think its a reasonable piece of kit when one looks at the total cost of ownership!

It appears to me that there are two basic approaches to designing and building a rebreather:

1. "This thing may not kill anyone." This design decision (the 1 billion hours MTBCF, etc) drives everything else and overrides all other considerations, as it miust once it shows up. The results in "save the looney" sorts of nonsense (which ironically may end up killing somebody), etc.

2. "This thing is a homicidal spawn of Satan and will kill anyone who turns their back on it, even for a moment." This design decision puts the responsiblity for survival directly in the big computer and eschews any attempt to relieve it of duty.

Problems arise IMHO when one attempts to find some "happy medium" between the two. Then design decisions are taken that don't make any sense.

What follows complacency, especially on a CCR? Death.

I'm not going to hold my breath for Alex's technology to show up in a commercially available, user-purchasable kit. I suspect the TCO will be stratospheric, not to mention that he's already said that he doesn't really believe the unit is incapable of killing someone ordinarily skilled in diving (since he fully expects that the "usual nonsense" regarding classes and such will be a part of buying the gear!)

I mean, really - if you're so sure your design won't kill anyone, then why shouldn't I be able to buy it off an Internet web site, with the only requirement being a (very high) credit limit on my Master Card?

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

SINUS

Sure we do! but starting it off with 'F' word is a no,no.. Oooops, didnt sound like TECHNICAL debate to me.


Cheers

Wei Lan

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"Silence Is Always Beautiful"

Steve

A personal issue should be taken up in person or directly via a PM, not via a web post. Very poor form that just lowers the tone of Rebreather World.

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WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.

rdmmdr

is it personal to challenge some one to post the data that they claim to have when they slam a component builder, i don't think so.
rick

Janos

It depends how you ask the question.

I follow Alex's posts. I must confess that sometimes they go a little bit detailed for me and I don't have the time to read and reread them but some people are clearly more brainer than me as they understand them, even if they disagree with him.

I'm also not sure whether a truly fool-proof rebreather will ever exist. And if it's worth working towards one, but Alex clearly thinks so and he seems to enjoy developing one so good on him say I.

Alex does criticise Teledyne cells, however I can only see this as being a good thing. If you disgaree with what he is saying then argue like-for-like and use hard facts and science to prove him wrong.

However the one thing I have taken out of this is to be 100% paranoid about my cells and to check them carefully. I check for limiting on descent, (and the current 11 month old batch are working luvverly) and now with the Shearwater I've started tracking the mV readings in air to watch them decay over time.

If it wasn't for Alex's posts (and similar from other Rebreather World members) then perhaps I might be a little more complacent? Who knows? But personally I could do with having the shit scared out of me a little more often to stop me falling into the complacency trap, and RBW is very much A Good Thing when it comes to this.

Janos

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decoweenie

IMHO, it is useless.

I have done that when I started diving CCR 8 years ago. And after a few years, I gave up since there wasn't any correlation at all of when the cells will go.

And I was diving a lot more active than I do now (i.e. 3-4 dives/week on average) so it is not like a matter of not tracking in fine-enough increments.

However, cell technology changes so it could be different now...

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"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

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rdmmdr

in the last two days Alex has slammed Karl on his design, and recommended a circuit design that the manufacture does not support or recommend , he has continued his tirade on the Teledyne sensor, and has slammed the inspro electronics as defective. and that is only 2 days. if i have miss spoke please correct me.

rick

decoweenie

Correction, Alex has done since he first joined Rebreather World...

__________________
"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

Genesis

Actually, I think Alex was trying to argue from a different perspective than I was - that tends to lead to misunderstandings, but you gotta read first.

What I find curious is people who argue that their design is "flood proof" and thus dismiss what happens WHEN their electronics get wet. Notice that I said when - not if. I find laudable the goal of designing a system that won't fail in a safety-critical way for 1 billion hours, but I remain firmly skeptical that such a goal can be achieved even in military-cost-acceptable systems.

This sort of thing is why the K1 only has one handset, as I have described. By including a second one I believe you're actually reducing safety since you can't trust the sensors after the first one fails unless you know why exactly why it failed - an impossibility while submerged. So to have two could lead you to believe something that is false, and THAT could easily end up being the proximate cause of your demise. With one handset that option does not exist - if the one malfunctions you are forced to shut it off (which is also provided for, unlike some other units) and fly using your completely independent backup for PO2 monitoring and manual control. If you do not have that for some reason (you didn't bring it with you, its broken, etc), then you are forced to bail until you reach 20' and can safely use the system as an electronic-less O2 rebreather.

You look at things like the Space Shuttle, which had a predicted "critical failure" rate of 1 in 100 missions. They were wrong, of course, in their prediction.

Like I said, its a different mindset - there's the "we can build one that won't kill you", and then there's the "it is inherent in this sort of device that it is the spawn of Satan and its mission in life IS to kill you" point of view.

Gordon Smith seemed to adopt the latter (going so far as to spraypaint that very warning on the MSR bags he used for counterlungs in the original KISS.) Nobody has cack'd themselves on a KISS to date as far as I know.

There appears to be a lesson in there somewhere....

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket