Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall

paulraymaekers · 19th November 2007, 17:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by fireman)

Dr Mike--There is always a free beer for you here in Chicago, don't change.
If anybody involved in the supply chain for a life support product has knowledge of a flaw that subsiquently lead to an injury and fails to notify, this is criminal negligence. If any one has a strong suspicion that a flaw exists in a life support product, I would think there is a moral obligation to pass it on asap.
I have little rebreather experience--100 dives/hours--I have had 4 k1's that have performed great and 3 AI's in rEvo that have been a pain in the ass.

hi Kevin,
just send them back, as was mentioned in the mail you got :-)

regards
paul

n2diving · 19th November 2007, 18:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I am very glad that AI have done this.

We became aware of a quality issue with cells leaking, and discussed with AI the extent.

A recall is the absolutely right thing to do.

These cells are different to those we use, but a recall in rebreather parts is a good step forward!

It gives me a lot of confidence in AI's customer management.

Alex

Alex,
AI has not issued a recall. Dive Rite Express made this decision, not AI. It's my understanding this has nothing to do with 'leaking' cells and we have not had any cells returned for leaking. The issue had to do with expected cell life time.

-- Mark

n2diving · 19th November 2007, 23:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Nah Mark is tugging my plonker as we can not agree on a rate for advertising and as you know we don't let commercial posts on without being a site sponsor.

I am sure he is well aware that we certainly would not object to any sort of recall notice but as a good business man isn't letting the opportunity pass him by to tug my tail.

Rebreather World will always be my baby and the community comes first and is a totally seperate entity from the store (My company which owns RBW, owns a minority share in the store).

Stuart

Hey, no ‘plonker’ tugging was intended on my part! I barely have enough time to tug my own plonker, let alone somebody else’s! My only intent was to explain why I didn’t post the Dive Rite Express sensor exchange offer on Rebreather World.

I personally would not have brought a business issue like this to the forum, but since Stuart had brought it up, I would like to clarify. Recently, Stuart and a Dive Rite Express staff member had discussed buying advertising on Rebreather World. Our staff was quoted a rate that seemed too high, and upon communication with several other RBW advertisers it was indeed several times more than what they were paying. I brought this up with Stuart, he stood firm, and the budget was spent in other venues. No hard feelings, it’s just business.

To the issue of ‘community comes first’, it seems to me that the community is best served by allowing all the manufacturers and retailers a voice too. If Stuart wishes to continue to exercise editorial control over my posts, the posts of other members mentioning Dive Rite Express, and exclude non-advertisers this is certainly his right. However, Rebreather World is no longer serving the community in an unbiased manner. There are conflicts of interest when the owner/operator has editorial and policy control of content, accepts paid advertising and has part ownership with a financial stake in the success of a for-profit retail store serving members. If RBW wishes to present itself as something other than a for-profit business then it seems like RBW should abide by generally accepted practices for non-profit organizations. This is particularly appropriate since RBW solicits and accepts 'donations'.

I'm not trying to make a fuss, and I regret the off topic post. However a response seemed appropriate in this case, since Stuart raised the issues here.

ccr_ada · 19th November 2007, 23:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

Hey, no ‘plonker’ tugging was intended on my part! I barely have enough time to tug my own plonker, let alone somebody else’s! My only intent was to explain why I didn’t post the Dive Rite Express sensor exchange offer on Rebreather World.

I personally would not have brought a business issue like this to the forum, but since Stuart had brought it up, I would like to clarify. Recently, Stuart and a Dive Rite Express staff member had discussed buying advertising on Rebreather World. Our staff was quoted a rate that seemed too high, and upon communication with several other RBW advertisers it was indeed several times more than what they were paying. I brought this up with Stuart, he stood firm, and the budget was spent in other venues. No hard feelings, it’s just business.

To the issue of ‘community comes first’, it seems to me that the community is best served by allowing all the manufacturers and retailers a voice too. If Stuart wishes to continue to exercise editorial control over my posts, the posts of other members mentioning Dive Rite Express, and exclude non-advertisers this is certainly his right. However, Rebreather World is no longer serving the community in an unbiased manner. There are conflicts of interest when the owner/operator has editorial and policy control of content, accepts paid advertising and has part ownership with a financial stake in the success of a for-profit retail store serving members. If RBW wishes to present itself as something other than a for-profit business then it seems like RBW should abide by generally accepted practices for non-profit organizations. This is particularly appropriate since RBW solicits and accepts 'donations'.

I'm not trying to make a fuss, and I regret the off topic post. However a response seemed appropriate in this case, since Stuart raised the issues here.

is this forum going to a forget about lives just give us your cash site

would this of been for the good for the community?

Drmike · 20th November 2007, 02:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

Yep, agree, but that takes good skills control (=lots of regular practice, WITH your electronics on during that practicing, to properly assess the actual PO2 you are maintaining), which unfortunately not everybody has.
It also gives you less reliable deco-info as you're not really sure what PO2 your're breathing.
But as a "get out of jail" option at depth to e.g. reach the anchorline at the other side of the wreck, and do the first part of your ascent, it surely is a good option.

ciao,

Tino.

mmmm, I think many over look how stable and reliable semiclosed ppo2 can be and dismiss it as 'too hard to do' or 'inaccurate' when in fact it is neither.

If you vent every few breaths your gonna more than double your availble oc gas time and all you have to do is set your vr3 to a slightly lower FO2 OC gas. You dont need sensors - it doesnt give you less reliable deco info (if you use VR3 or your unit has built in deco) you know what the FO2 of the gas is and with a high vent frequency (hell you could vent ever 2nd breath if you wanted) you would know to a very high relaibility what you effective FO2 would be. Just plug that effective FO2 into your OC deco comp. I dont even worry too much about determining excatly what the small drop in FO2 is so as to accurately set my VR3 - I just set it at an extra conservative fo2 drop knowing that that will be conservative.

Drmike · 20th November 2007, 02:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

Hey, no ‘plonker’ tugging was intended on my part! I barely have enough time to tug my own plonker, let alone somebody else’s! .

lol

Drmike · 20th November 2007, 02:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

To the issue of ‘community comes first’, it seems to me that the community is best served by allowing all the manufacturers and retailers a voice too. If Stuart wishes to continue to exercise editorial control over my posts, the posts of other members mentioning Dive Rite Express, and exclude non-advertisers this is certainly his right. However, Rebreather World is no longer serving the community in an unbiased manner. There are conflicts of interest when the owner/operator has editorial and policy control of content, accepts paid advertising and has part ownership with a financial stake in the success of a for-profit retail store serving members. If RBW wishes to present itself as something other than a for-profit business then it seems like RBW should abide by generally accepted practices for non-profit organizations. This is particularly appropriate since RBW solicits and accepts 'donations'.

I am also concerned about this. I hope Stuart manages to find a way to balance everything for the benefit of all. its not going to be easy I suspect.

AD_ward9 · 20th November 2007, 06:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

Alex,
AI has not issued a recall. Dive Rite Express made this decision, not AI. It's my understanding this has nothing to do with 'leaking' cells and we have not had any cells returned for leaking. The issue had to do with expected cell life time.

-- Mark

Interesting. I understood AI are recalling and replacing certain batches of cells, due to leakage. This is likely the cell lifetime issue you mention, but if the cause is something else, please PM me as I would like to follow up.

Dive Rite Express does seem to have taken the initiative first, so the credit to them as doing the first rebreather part "almost a recall". We will donate a prize for the next Rebreather World party if it goes to them for Integrity in Business. This episode really shows how much internet sales has matured, surpassing service levels from direct factory sales (I am not aware of any rebreather factory sales ever being recalled, or "recall by another name").

A recall notice, which the Dive Rite Express statement is to all useful purposes, is not commercial advertising on any other major forum I know. Go to the IMCA site for example, and you see the recalls for commercial dive products. If Rebreather World were to charge companies for posting recall notices, this would be a severely retrograde step: the opposite of the Integrity in Business award. The RBW staff probably just need a bit of a break to think this issue over.

Alex

***EBT*** · 20th November 2007, 07:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I am also concerned about this. I hope Stuart manages to find a way to balance everything for the benefit of all. its not going to be easy I suspect.

Storm in a tea cup guys (shame its bloody liptons in phuket!)

Firstly, no-one of the staff would do anything other than PROMOTE safety related information. We dive breathers and so do many friends and acquaintances.

Secondly, commercial advertising is Stuarts domain, us mere admins will merely isolate posts of a commercial nature (or edit out the commercial content ie remove hyperlinks). This is commonly done, as Im sure many can attest too.

Now lets get back to focusing on the important info, the performance of our sensors and how safety related information is propogated..... or in my case, the shocking price of beer here and how quickly I can get my ass out of tourist central and onto a small island

/Z

PS. Good on DRE for announcing and executing their recall policy!

Drmike · 20th November 2007, 08:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Storm in a tea cup guys (shame its bloody liptons in phuket!)

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

I don't think you can or should dismiss this concern so lightly. Its a reasonable and legitimate concern as to the 'potential' challenges that anyone is likely to face when having to balance their considerable and growing commercial considerations with the 'independence of the public forum. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that this could be a real challenge for them.

Quote:

Firstly, no-one of the staff would do anything other than PROMOTE safety related information. We dive breathers and so do many friends and acquaintances.

Er nobody ever suggested otherwise. Where did you get that from? The promotion of safety related info isn't the only concern and one could be selective on how that info is related and what angle its given.

Quote:

Secondly, commercial advertising is Stuarts domain, us mere admins will merely isolate posts of a commercial nature (or edit out the commercial content ie remove hyperlinks). This is commonly done, as I'm sure many can attest too.

and Stuart as board owner has the power to influence the content of the site at all levels. He could for example over charge a competing supplier who wishes to advertise here thus putting them off advertising - effectively creating a monopoly (and note: I'm talking hypothetically and not saying he would - just highlighting that he could if he so wished) Clearly such an action wouldn't be good for us - it creates a monopoly - and again im not saying he has or ever would do such a thing I'm just highlighting why the independence of the board is a legitimate concern

At the end of the day I wasn't pointing fingers or making accusations I simply stated that its going to be a challenge for him not to let the growing commercial interest effect the boards 'pseudo' independence. I think that's obvious to all.

At the end of the day its in Stuarts interest to make sure the board is seen to be as independant as possible - hes a clever guy, he knows that

19th November 2007, 17:18	#81 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,495	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by fireman) Dr Mike--There is always a free beer for you here in Chicago, don't change. If anybody involved in the supply chain for a life support product has knowledge of a flaw that subsiquently lead to an injury and fails to notify, this is criminal negligence. If any one has a strong suspicion that a flaw exists in a life support product, I would think there is a moral obligation to pass it on asap. I have little rebreather experience--100 dives/hours--I have had 4 k1's that have performed great and 3 AI's in rEvo that have been a pain in the ass. hi Kevin, just send them back, as was mentioned in the mail you got :-) regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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19th November 2007, 18:00	#82 (permalink)
n2diving Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 272	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I am very glad that AI have done this. We became aware of a quality issue with cells leaking, and discussed with AI the extent. A recall is the absolutely right thing to do. These cells are different to those we use, but a recall in rebreather parts is a good step forward! It gives me a lot of confidence in AI's customer management. Alex Alex, AI has not issued a recall. Dive Rite Express made this decision, not AI. It's my understanding this has nothing to do with 'leaking' cells and we have not had any cells returned for leaking. The issue had to do with expected cell life time. -- Mark
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19th November 2007, 23:16	#83 (permalink)
n2diving Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 272	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Nah Mark is tugging my plonker as we can not agree on a rate for advertising and as you know we don't let commercial posts on without being a site sponsor. I am sure he is well aware that we certainly would not object to any sort of recall notice but as a good business man isn't letting the opportunity pass him by to tug my tail. Rebreather World will always be my baby and the community comes first and is a totally seperate entity from the store (My company which owns RBW, owns a minority share in the store). Stuart Hey, no ‘plonker’ tugging was intended on my part! I barely have enough time to tug my own plonker, let alone somebody else’s! My only intent was to explain why I didn’t post the Dive Rite Express sensor exchange offer on Rebreather World. I personally would not have brought a business issue like this to the forum, but since Stuart had brought it up, I would like to clarify. Recently, Stuart and a Dive Rite Express staff member had discussed buying advertising on Rebreather World. Our staff was quoted a rate that seemed too high, and upon communication with several other RBW advertisers it was indeed several times more than what they were paying. I brought this up with Stuart, he stood firm, and the budget was spent in other venues. No hard feelings, it’s just business. To the issue of ‘community comes first’, it seems to me that the community is best served by allowing all the manufacturers and retailers a voice too. If Stuart wishes to continue to exercise editorial control over my posts, the posts of other members mentioning Dive Rite Express, and exclude non-advertisers this is certainly his right. However, Rebreather World is no longer serving the community in an unbiased manner. There are conflicts of interest when the owner/operator has editorial and policy control of content, accepts paid advertising and has part ownership with a financial stake in the success of a for-profit retail store serving members. If RBW wishes to present itself as something other than a for-profit business then it seems like RBW should abide by generally accepted practices for non-profit organizations. This is particularly appropriate since RBW solicits and accepts 'donations'. I'm not trying to make a fuss, and I regret the off topic post. However a response seemed appropriate in this case, since Stuart raised the issues here.
(Offline)

19th November 2007, 23:43	#84 (permalink)
ccr_ada 07971475781 Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: uk sorry G.B. Posts: 221	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) Hey, no ‘plonker’ tugging was intended on my part! I barely have enough time to tug my own plonker, let alone somebody else’s! My only intent was to explain why I didn’t post the Dive Rite Express sensor exchange offer on Rebreather World. I personally would not have brought a business issue like this to the forum, but since Stuart had brought it up, I would like to clarify. Recently, Stuart and a Dive Rite Express staff member had discussed buying advertising on Rebreather World. Our staff was quoted a rate that seemed too high, and upon communication with several other RBW advertisers it was indeed several times more than what they were paying. I brought this up with Stuart, he stood firm, and the budget was spent in other venues. No hard feelings, it’s just business. To the issue of ‘community comes first’, it seems to me that the community is best served by allowing all the manufacturers and retailers a voice too. If Stuart wishes to continue to exercise editorial control over my posts, the posts of other members mentioning Dive Rite Express, and exclude non-advertisers this is certainly his right. However, Rebreather World is no longer serving the community in an unbiased manner. There are conflicts of interest when the owner/operator has editorial and policy control of content, accepts paid advertising and has part ownership with a financial stake in the success of a for-profit retail store serving members. If RBW wishes to present itself as something other than a for-profit business then it seems like RBW should abide by generally accepted practices for non-profit organizations. This is particularly appropriate since RBW solicits and accepts 'donations'. I'm not trying to make a fuss, and I regret the off topic post. However a response seemed appropriate in this case, since Stuart raised the issues here. is this forum going to a forget about lives just give us your cash site would this of been for the good for the community?
(Offline)

20th November 2007, 02:22	#85 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) Yep, agree, but that takes good skills control (=lots of regular practice, WITH your electronics on during that practicing, to properly assess the actual PO2 you are maintaining), which unfortunately not everybody has. It also gives you less reliable deco-info as you're not really sure what PO2 your're breathing. But as a "get out of jail" option at depth to e.g. reach the anchorline at the other side of the wreck, and do the first part of your ascent, it surely is a good option. ciao, Tino. mmmm, I think many over look how stable and reliable semiclosed ppo2 can be and dismiss it as 'too hard to do' or 'inaccurate' when in fact it is neither. If you vent every few breaths your gonna more than double your availble oc gas time and all you have to do is set your vr3 to a slightly lower FO2 OC gas. You dont need sensors - it doesnt give you less reliable deco info (if you use VR3 or your unit has built in deco) you know what the FO2 of the gas is and with a high vent frequency (hell you could vent ever 2nd breath if you wanted) you would know to a very high relaibility what you effective FO2 would be. Just plug that effective FO2 into your OC deco comp. I dont even worry too much about determining excatly what the small drop in FO2 is so as to accurately set my VR3 - I just set it at an extra conservative fo2 drop knowing that that will be conservative. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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20th November 2007, 02:25	#86 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) Hey, no ‘plonker’ tugging was intended on my part! I barely have enough time to tug my own plonker, let alone somebody else’s! . lol __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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20th November 2007, 02:29	#87 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) To the issue of ‘community comes first’, it seems to me that the community is best served by allowing all the manufacturers and retailers a voice too. If Stuart wishes to continue to exercise editorial control over my posts, the posts of other members mentioning Dive Rite Express, and exclude non-advertisers this is certainly his right. However, Rebreather World is no longer serving the community in an unbiased manner. There are conflicts of interest when the owner/operator has editorial and policy control of content, accepts paid advertising and has part ownership with a financial stake in the success of a for-profit retail store serving members. If RBW wishes to present itself as something other than a for-profit business then it seems like RBW should abide by generally accepted practices for non-profit organizations. This is particularly appropriate since RBW solicits and accepts 'donations'. I am also concerned about this. I hope Stuart manages to find a way to balance everything for the benefit of all. its not going to be easy I suspect. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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20th November 2007, 06:16	#88 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) Alex, AI has not issued a recall. Dive Rite Express made this decision, not AI. It's my understanding this has nothing to do with 'leaking' cells and we have not had any cells returned for leaking. The issue had to do with expected cell life time. -- Mark Interesting. I understood AI are recalling and replacing certain batches of cells, due to leakage. This is likely the cell lifetime issue you mention, but if the cause is something else, please PM me as I would like to follow up. Dive Rite Express does seem to have taken the initiative first, so the credit to them as doing the first rebreather part "almost a recall". We will donate a prize for the next Rebreather World party if it goes to them for Integrity in Business. This episode really shows how much internet sales has matured, surpassing service levels from direct factory sales (I am not aware of any rebreather factory sales ever being recalled, or "recall by another name"). A recall notice, which the Dive Rite Express statement is to all useful purposes, is not commercial advertising on any other major forum I know. Go to the IMCA site for example, and you see the recalls for commercial dive products. If Rebreather World were to charge companies for posting recall notices, this would be a severely retrograde step: the opposite of the Integrity in Business award. The RBW staff probably just need a bit of a break to think this issue over. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 20th November 2007 at 06:29.
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20th November 2007, 07:57	#89 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,970	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I am also concerned about this. I hope Stuart manages to find a way to balance everything for the benefit of all. its not going to be easy I suspect. Storm in a tea cup guys (shame its bloody liptons in phuket!) Firstly, no-one of the staff would do anything other than PROMOTE safety related information. We dive breathers and so do many friends and acquaintances. Secondly, commercial advertising is Stuarts domain, us mere admins will merely isolate posts of a commercial nature (or edit out the commercial content ie remove hyperlinks). This is commonly done, as Im sure many can attest too. Now lets get back to focusing on the important info, the performance of our sensors and how safety related information is propogated..... or in my case, the shocking price of beer here and how quickly I can get my ass out of tourist central and onto a small island /Z PS. Good on DRE for announcing and executing their recall policy! __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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20th November 2007, 08:39	#90 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Storm in a tea cup guys (shame its bloody liptons in phuket!) Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) I don't think you can or should dismiss this concern so lightly. Its a reasonable and legitimate concern as to the 'potential' challenges that anyone is likely to face when having to balance their considerable and growing commercial considerations with the 'independence of the public forum. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that this could be a real challenge for them. Quote: Firstly, no-one of the staff would do anything other than PROMOTE safety related information. We dive breathers and so do many friends and acquaintances. Er nobody ever suggested otherwise. Where did you get that from? The promotion of safety related info isn't the only concern and one could be selective on how that info is related and what angle its given. Quote: Secondly, commercial advertising is Stuarts domain, us mere admins will merely isolate posts of a commercial nature (or edit out the commercial content ie remove hyperlinks). This is commonly done, as I'm sure many can attest too. and Stuart as board owner has the power to influence the content of the site at all levels. He could for example over charge a competing supplier who wishes to advertise here thus putting them off advertising - effectively creating a monopoly (and note: I'm talking hypothetically and not saying he would - just highlighting that he could if he so wished) Clearly such an action wouldn't be good for us - it creates a monopoly - and again im not saying he has or ever would do such a thing I'm just highlighting why the independence of the board is a legitimate concern At the end of the day I wasn't pointing fingers or making accusations I simply stated that its going to be a challenge for him not to let the growing commercial interest effect the boards 'pseudo' independence. I think that's obvious to all. At the end of the day its in Stuarts interest to make sure the board is seen to be as independant as possible - hes a clever guy, he knows that __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 20th November 2007 at 08:50.
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