Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall

paulraymaekers · 17th November 2007, 14:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Blomman)

Do you or anyone else perhaps know how AP test their cells?

// Blomman

What rEvo has started doing the last 2 weeks

open the bag, apply a 10k load to the cell from now on and till end of test, wait 1 hour, mesure output voltage in air

then in pressure pot: at 100% humidity, give each cell 5 consecutive dives to 40m with eanx 32, 2hours, time between dives 24 hours
after 5th dive, let the cell rest for 1 hour, mesure the voltage again

if voltage at the end is within 5% of original voltage, and still in spec (9-13mV), the cell is supposed to be ok

reseal in bag with air

regards

paul

dave t · 17th November 2007, 15:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Blomman)

Do you or anyone else perhaps know how AP test their cells?

// Blomman

Good question and to be honest I am not sure but I will find out on Monday and report back. They do have a full ANSTI machine so I guess they will have no problems sticking batches of cells in the chamber and "diving" them.

Dave

heyydude · 17th November 2007, 15:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

.....

In fact, there is at least one manufacturer here on Rebreather World that says that storing them in a sealed bag doesn't make any difference anyway in terms of overall lifetime. I forgot which one; I thought the guys from Innerspace..? Too lazy to find out.

Look at it this way: if you seal it in a small bag with air, and the cell uses up the remaining O2 in it, it is effectively stored in inert gas, called nitrogen....

ciao,

Tino.

I think that was me, from back in the 90's. (here with some modifications):

You get 1 Year from sensors if you store them in a pressure pot full of O2.
If you store them in a pressure pot full of Air, you get 12 months.
If you seal them in a bag full of Helium, you get 52 weeks.
If you seal them in a bag full of Helium, and store them in the fridge, you get 365 days.

Kevin.

webhead · 17th November 2007, 16:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

i would suggest a forum where mnf only could post - not a place where they could be pulled into time consuming or sometimes confrontational debates. just a notice board if you like

Got it - I agree and will set it up so only people in a group called Manufacturer can post into it.

So will the manufacturers be allowed to address individuals or provide their "opinions" on issues relating to their product in this forum?

I like the idea of a thread that I can read that is facts from the manufacturer that is not riddled with opinions and comments from every person with an internet connection. But I also think that thread would be useless if manfacturers have the ability to get on their own soapboxes with impunity.

webhead · 17th November 2007, 16:35

A couple of questions from reading these posts....

1) If there was a "recall" on the AI cells from DRE, why isn't there some notice on their web page?

2) If swapping cells individually is the best practice, why do the CCR manufacturers ship their new and overhauled units with cells from the same batch, usually sequential s/n's?

Mark Chase · 17th November 2007, 17:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I just spoke to Mark Gregus at AII to talk about this - apparantly there was a manufacturing issue with the last few batches that caused some sensors to fail early, he said that this does not affect every sensor but they are replacing all recent orders to their resellers in the next few days.

The affected AII sensor codes are:

PSR 11-39-MD
PSR 11-39-APD
PSR 11-39-JD

So if you have bought a recent AII sensor - then even if it appears ok - my advice woud be not to dive it and get it replaced from your reseller.

Yep thats me and Janos. We took them to 72m yesterday

atb

Mark

Gobfish1 · 17th November 2007, 17:34

lucky boys,

n2diving · 17th November 2007, 19:02

I'm the guy who wrote the Dive Rite Express e-mail to my customers and I would like to address a few of the issues raised here...

There was no foot dragging by us or by AI. Because Dive Rite Express sells by far the largest number of cells (according to AI) we naturally have the largest 'sample size'. The problem did not surface immediately (it is age related) but routinely as we get returns from customers we send them back to AI for evaluations. We have always gotten returns on cells regardless of what brand or model. Under normal circumstances this is of no particular concern... a certain number get damaged in shipment and most returns have no problem at all when later examined (the user has actually blamed the sensor for what should have been diagnosed as connectivity problem, wiring harness problem, moisture problem, yada yada), and a few actually have single instances of imperfections or contamination. Whenever we get returned sensors, we immediately overnight them to AI for immediate evaluation. In this case AI figured out the problem reasonably quickly and notified us as soon as they understood the problem. We notified our customers the same day we learned about it from AI.

It seems to me that AI has no obligation or responsibility to issue any kind of 'recall notice' to the general public. They directly contacted their customers who bought them and informed their customers of the life expectancy issue. AI left it to Dive Rite Express as to how we wished to handle the issue with OUR customers. The affected cells were described to us as being an unknown but probably small percentage of the cells. AI had not issued a 'recall', we simply decided the best course was to replace them all. It was OUR decision on behalf of OUR customers. In our case, we keep records that allowed us to communicate directly with our customers who purchased them and so that's how we did it. It's a bit of a stretch to assume posting a notice on rebreatherworld.com or on our own website would suffice or even be particularly effective and timely. Further, we have been cautioned by rebreatherworld staff we are not to post business related content or content that mentions or links to Dive Rite Express or Rebreather Express. We hope an exception will be made with this post.

We have no particular concerns regarding the quality of the AI cells, in fact we sell the AI cell because we feel it’s the best available and we still feel that way. Every cell manufacturer has had 'bad batches'; I recall that Teledyne a while back had the conformal coating issues with cells. Overall the return rate of the AI cells (even with this issue) is still less than the return rate I had when I sold the Teledyne cells. This was later supported when Alex published his independent testing in which the Teledyne’s faired so poorly the Teledyne results were redacted from the final report. Given that occasional bad lots of cells are going to occur regardless of brand, then it seems to me that AI's response and handling of the issue has been quite reasonable and very ethical.

Some might recall a post I made on Rebreather World in May of this year in reference to all brands of O2 sensors: "...these things are not precision devices, they are high failure items that have a long history of quality control issues with amazing variations from lot to lot... the really paranoid rebreather divers install three sensors from three different lots and stagger the installation over a period of time...". A more detailed version is even linked on the sensors ordering page at Dive Rite Express. This is why most rebreather designs include three sensors and some people even like having a fourth. It's why most instructors teach how to recognize, diagnose and respond to failing cells. Failing cells are a fact of life until someone is willing to pay for cells that won't fail. I suspect it's possible, just not very economical at the current time, to build a nearly failure proof cell (Alex?). Until then, we'll do the best we can with what we have.

Some of the recent discussion involves testing. The cells from this particular batch test just OK right up until the moment they don't test OK. AI tests each and every one of the cells they ship to us at several stages of assembly, and then tests the final cell for several days. In fact I'm told by AI that most of the time it takes for a production cycle to complete is consumed with testing. I've sold and used the cells locally in our store and they tested OK there too. I have a 'Cell Checker' to test with as well as several other ways of testing them. While more testing and more elaborate testing can't hurt, it won't solve the problem of the DOA cell because package delivery service pulled so many G's on the package that the cell was damaged in shipment. Also more testing prior to shipping won't uncover problems that only manifest over time, as was the situation here.

I hope this provides more information regarding the Dive Rite Express e-mail to our customers.

Sincerely,
Mark Derrick

Gobfish1 · 17th November 2007, 20:20

It seems to me that AI has no obligation or responsibility to issue any kind of 'recall notice' to the general public.

thats nice to know , THANKs .

n2diving · 17th November 2007, 20:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

It seems to me that AI has no obligation or responsibility to issue any kind of 'recall notice' to the general public.
thats nice to know , THANKs .

I did feel Dive Rite Express, (the name on the label of the cell) and who does deal with the retail public, did have a responsibility to it's customers, which is why I sent the e-mail. You are welcome.

17th November 2007, 14:41	#41 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,384	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by Blomman) Do you or anyone else perhaps know how AP test their cells? // Blomman What rEvo has started doing the last 2 weeks open the bag, apply a 10k load to the cell from now on and till end of test, wait 1 hour, mesure output voltage in air then in pressure pot: at 100% humidity, give each cell 5 consecutive dives to 40m with eanx 32, 2hours, time between dives 24 hours after 5th dive, let the cell rest for 1 hour, mesure the voltage again if voltage at the end is within 5% of original voltage, and still in spec (9-13mV), the cell is supposed to be ok reseal in bag with air regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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17th November 2007, 15:14	#42 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 621	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by Blomman) Do you or anyone else perhaps know how AP test their cells? // Blomman Good question and to be honest I am not sure but I will find out on Monday and report back. They do have a full ANSTI machine so I guess they will have no problems sticking batches of cells in the chamber and "diving" them. Dave
(Online)

17th November 2007, 15:21	#43 (permalink)
heyydude King of the Geeks Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Addison, Pennsylvania Posts: 331	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) ..... In fact, there is at least one manufacturer here on Rebreather World that says that storing them in a sealed bag doesn't make any difference anyway in terms of overall lifetime. I forgot which one; I thought the guys from Innerspace..? Too lazy to find out. Look at it this way: if you seal it in a small bag with air, and the cell uses up the remaining O2 in it, it is effectively stored in inert gas, called nitrogen.... ciao, Tino. I think that was me, from back in the 90's. (here with some modifications): You get 1 Year from sensors if you store them in a pressure pot full of O2. If you store them in a pressure pot full of Air, you get 12 months. If you seal them in a bag full of Helium, you get 52 weeks. If you seal them in a bag full of Helium, and store them in the fridge, you get 365 days. Kevin.
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17th November 2007, 16:32	#44 (permalink)
webhead Earning the green stuff.. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: East central Florida Posts: 283	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) i would suggest a forum where mnf only could post - not a place where they could be pulled into time consuming or sometimes confrontational debates. just a notice board if you like Got it - I agree and will set it up so only people in a group called Manufacturer can post into it. So will the manufacturers be allowed to address individuals or provide their "opinions" on issues relating to their product in this forum? I like the idea of a thread that I can read that is facts from the manufacturer that is not riddled with opinions and comments from every person with an internet connection. But I also think that thread would be useless if manfacturers have the ability to get on their own soapboxes with impunity. __________________ "These are not the droids you are looking for.... move along" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
(Offline)

17th November 2007, 16:35	#45 (permalink)
webhead Earning the green stuff.. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: East central Florida Posts: 283	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall A couple of questions from reading these posts.... 1) If there was a "recall" on the AI cells from DRE, why isn't there some notice on their web page? 2) If swapping cells individually is the best practice, why do the CCR manufacturers ship their new and overhauled units with cells from the same batch, usually sequential s/n's? __________________ "These are not the droids you are looking for.... move along" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
(Offline)

17th November 2007, 17:16	#46 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I just spoke to Mark Gregus at AII to talk about this - apparantly there was a manufacturing issue with the last few batches that caused some sensors to fail early, he said that this does not affect every sensor but they are replacing all recent orders to their resellers in the next few days. The affected AII sensor codes are: PSR 11-39-MD PSR 11-39-APD PSR 11-39-JD So if you have bought a recent AII sensor - then even if it appears ok - my advice woud be not to dive it and get it replaced from your reseller. Yep thats me and Janos. We took them to 72m yesterday atb Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

17th November 2007, 17:34	#47 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 352	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall lucky boys, __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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17th November 2007, 19:02	#48 (permalink)
n2diving Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 270	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall I'm the guy who wrote the Dive Rite Express e-mail to my customers and I would like to address a few of the issues raised here... There was no foot dragging by us or by AI. Because Dive Rite Express sells by far the largest number of cells (according to AI) we naturally have the largest 'sample size'. The problem did not surface immediately (it is age related) but routinely as we get returns from customers we send them back to AI for evaluations. We have always gotten returns on cells regardless of what brand or model. Under normal circumstances this is of no particular concern... a certain number get damaged in shipment and most returns have no problem at all when later examined (the user has actually blamed the sensor for what should have been diagnosed as connectivity problem, wiring harness problem, moisture problem, yada yada), and a few actually have single instances of imperfections or contamination. Whenever we get returned sensors, we immediately overnight them to AI for immediate evaluation. In this case AI figured out the problem reasonably quickly and notified us as soon as they understood the problem. We notified our customers the same day we learned about it from AI. It seems to me that AI has no obligation or responsibility to issue any kind of 'recall notice' to the general public. They directly contacted their customers who bought them and informed their customers of the life expectancy issue. AI left it to Dive Rite Express as to how we wished to handle the issue with OUR customers. The affected cells were described to us as being an unknown but probably small percentage of the cells. AI had not issued a 'recall', we simply decided the best course was to replace them all. It was OUR decision on behalf of OUR customers. In our case, we keep records that allowed us to communicate directly with our customers who purchased them and so that's how we did it. It's a bit of a stretch to assume posting a notice on rebreatherworld.com or on our own website would suffice or even be particularly effective and timely. Further, we have been cautioned by rebreatherworld staff we are not to post business related content or content that mentions or links to Dive Rite Express or Rebreather Express. We hope an exception will be made with this post. We have no particular concerns regarding the quality of the AI cells, in fact we sell the AI cell because we feel it’s the best available and we still feel that way. Every cell manufacturer has had 'bad batches'; I recall that Teledyne a while back had the conformal coating issues with cells. Overall the return rate of the AI cells (even with this issue) is still less than the return rate I had when I sold the Teledyne cells. This was later supported when Alex published his independent testing in which the Teledyne’s faired so poorly the Teledyne results were redacted from the final report. Given that occasional bad lots of cells are going to occur regardless of brand, then it seems to me that AI's response and handling of the issue has been quite reasonable and very ethical. Some might recall a post I made on Rebreather World in May of this year in reference to all brands of O2 sensors: "...these things are not precision devices, they are high failure items that have a long history of quality control issues with amazing variations from lot to lot... the really paranoid rebreather divers install three sensors from three different lots and stagger the installation over a period of time...". A more detailed version is even linked on the sensors ordering page at Dive Rite Express. This is why most rebreather designs include three sensors and some people even like having a fourth. It's why most instructors teach how to recognize, diagnose and respond to failing cells. Failing cells are a fact of life until someone is willing to pay for cells that won't fail. I suspect it's possible, just not very economical at the current time, to build a nearly failure proof cell (Alex?). Until then, we'll do the best we can with what we have. Some of the recent discussion involves testing. The cells from this particular batch test just OK right up until the moment they don't test OK. AI tests each and every one of the cells they ship to us at several stages of assembly, and then tests the final cell for several days. In fact I'm told by AI that most of the time it takes for a production cycle to complete is consumed with testing. I've sold and used the cells locally in our store and they tested OK there too. I have a 'Cell Checker' to test with as well as several other ways of testing them. While more testing and more elaborate testing can't hurt, it won't solve the problem of the DOA cell because package delivery service pulled so many G's on the package that the cell was damaged in shipment. Also more testing prior to shipping won't uncover problems that only manifest over time, as was the situation here. I hope this provides more information regarding the Dive Rite Express e-mail to our customers. Sincerely, Mark Derrick Last edited by n2diving : 17th November 2007 at 19:31.
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17th November 2007, 20:20	#49 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 352	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall It seems to me that AI has no obligation or responsibility to issue any kind of 'recall notice' to the general public. thats nice to know , THANKs . __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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17th November 2007, 20:31	#50 (permalink)
n2diving Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 270	Re: Attention!!! AI O2 Sensor Recall Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) It seems to me that AI has no obligation or responsibility to issue any kind of 'recall notice' to the general public. thats nice to know , THANKs . I did feel Dive Rite Express, (the name on the label of the cell) and who does deal with the retail public, did have a responsibility to it's customers, which is why I sent the e-mail. You are welcome. Last edited by n2diving : 17th November 2007 at 20:41.
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