Self-teaching Vs Agency Training

**wedivebc** · 3rd May 2005, 04:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook)

(ie I think the longest semi-closed run I did on either course was 15 or 20 minutes). Mostly as a result of this, I have done a lot of training dives on my own over the last year. The result is that I've been able to do more combinations of drills (something that's typically only touched on the final dive of the formal course), extended drills (ie about 75 or 80 minutes on SCR, compare with above) and practised some stuff I've found out about since the course.

The point of training is to teach you how to do something, the point of experience is to put that training into practice. You really want to pay an instructor to watch you run your unit in scr mode for 80 minutes?

***jradomski*** · 3rd May 2005, 04:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook)

Personally, I think I got great value out of both the CCR courses (YBOD & Meg) that I've done. I was very selective about instructors - as with Phi, I flew halfway around the world on one occasion (& will be doing so again in October for my CCR trimix course). The training has also been shown to work as regards the basics - I had a solenoid fail open on the second dive after the Meg course - closed the O2 valve and ddid a 40 minute swim back to the entry point with ZERO stress.

Unfortunatlely CCR courses are made way too short to fit everything in, or to keep drills running for long enough (ie I think the longest semi-closed run I did on either course was 15 or 20 minutes). Mostly as a result of this, I have done a lot of training dives on my own over the last year. The result is that I've been able to do more combinations of drills (something that's typically only touched on the final dive of the formal course), extended drills (ie about 75 or 80 minutes on SCR, compare with above) and practised some stuff I've found out about since the course. I've also come up with some stuff on my own (ie semi closed dumping a fraction of each breath) and worked on that. Also, the two instructors I've used had a number of areas they did differently, so although I can do things either way, I have my preferred method.

You can't fit all of the above into a 6 or 8 dive course. The result of spending a heap of time on it is that I'm much more proficient now than when I came out of the course. Therefore I see the use of an instructor as the start of learning how to do something, not the complete process,

Thanks,
Robert

The initial class should teach you the basic skills.. Running SCR for a short period in the pool, then on a few seperate training divesfor 15 mins or so each is enough to have the students LEARN the technique... It is up to them to parctice, practice,practice until it becomes second nature.. On more advanced classes it should be expected the techniuqe be somewahat reefined so that it can be done for longer periods of time at deeper depths.. On the Second ANDI class we do 30 minutes SCR (or more), while doing additional tasks (including shooting a bag) to simulate real world task loading..(more than 1 scr dive may be required, based on students performance at a consistent loop) We also do these drills with a deco gas starting at 21m and do a simulated decompression profile and judge how close they would be to their real schedule (based on loop po2) ..

ANDI's second class is almost TOTALLY manual.. the electronics are just there for a safety net.. If the divers screw up, their decompression schedules will be wrong so contant evaulation is down by the instructor and if need beadditional dives and instruction are mnadated..

By the end, the diver is fully competent at diving without the electronics.. This level of expertese can't me expected by a new CCR diver, they don't have the time on the unit for this type of mastery..

Duncan Price · 3rd May 2005, 10:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie)

Right - as most people are aware, I am a strong proponent of self-teaching in my own personal diving....

I have had excellent value for money from my instructors over the years. I have had tailormade courses from some of the finest divers in the world who were themselves educated by experts in their field. The training was concise, clear and relevant. The people who gave it were my friends. The cost was nothing.

Self-teaching is not for everyone and unfortunately qualifications from the "Dive School of Life" aren't recognised widely.

As far as homebuild "instruction" goes - I'm afraid that you are largely on your own - it comes with the terratory. I would take it as a personal affront if someone thought they could teach me about my rebreather. However, I have had plenty of constructive advice on the way which has always been welcome...

I think that even if I were to buy a commercial rebreather, I'd probably read the manual and go off and dive the unit. I guess I'm that sort of person.

Duncan

Robert Cook · 4th May 2005, 03:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

It is up to them to parctice, practice,practice until it becomes second nature..

This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with,

Thanks,
Robert

***jradomski*** · 4th May 2005, 04:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook)

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

It is up to them to parctice, practice,practice until it becomes second nature..

This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with,

Thanks,
Robert

The only people you can blame is the instructors for not stressing it enough.. I do plenty of instructor crossover (or attempted crossovers ;0 ) so I get to see alot of instructors attitudes.. Too many of them just don't get it...
I know I hound my students to no end stressing I am just giving them the toolsand that they need to practice and refine the skills until everything becomes second nature. A week at the basic class is just enough to get them going.. I find most realize the importance of skills like SCR once they start doing deco profiles, the person doing recreational profiles doesn't always see the value of this skill since they can usually just go to open circuit bailout..

I try and get my students to treat all their dives as technical dives and not bail to OC at tfe first sign of trouble and I push learning to make due with any electronics..

I try my part in not signing off a xover or making an instructor for ANDI that doesn't meet my expectations regardless how much money they are spending (I make my guys sign learning agreements ahead of time, stating the training DOES NOT guarantee certification)

***Decodiver*** · 4th May 2005, 05:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook)

This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with,

Thanks,
Robert

I normally pair up a just qualified student with an experienced CCR diver who I have also taught.

I then encourage them to perform skills together on the initial subsequent dives and I speak to them regularly afterwards.

By conversing with them and asking pointed questions I can ascertain if they have been doing their skills.

Also, it is down to the way you sell the skills to them on the course. If you explain why they should be done, and more importantly why they should be practised then people are generally willing to see them not as chores, rather as mandatory life-support skills.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

***jradomski*** · 4th May 2005, 08:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

Also, it is down to the way you sell the skills to them on the course. If you explain why they should be done, and more importantly why they should be practised then people are generally willing to see them not as chores, rather as mandatory life-support skills.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

exactly...

***EBT*** · 4th May 2005, 10:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook)

This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with,

Thanks,
Robert

Its a mix of instructor and student efforts. Some people just dont like doing drills whatever the motivation. Thats their call, although I'd argue that the only person they're kidding is themselves.

Personally I find deco dull..... to distract myself from the urge to piss around, I'll do drills. Ditto on noddy dives/winter training dives.

lizardland · 4th May 2005, 10:59

From some of the comments that get posted on various forums, you have to wonder exactly what does get taught on some courses. Or maybe wonder why the instructor passed them.

A course is only as good as the instructor and if there are instructors passing muppets then it is no wonder that they aren't going to be practicing basic skills.

Drmike · 4th May 2005, 12:06

Ive just been talking to a guy who did a YBOD course then imediately after (on the same trip)did an YBOD instructor course. He bought a unit but didnt dive it for nearly a year. Then he does a dozen or so shallow reef dives on it (During a 3 month period) and sells it. A year later hes in a position 'politically' within his agency to sign over a student to trimix ccr!!.

This guy has never even dived any rebreather beyond 30m!!. And he hasnt done more than 50 dives on a Rebreather - ever and as far as I am aware never even a single Trimix RB dive

What a frigging joke.

I have lost whatever minute respect I ever had for this particular training agency.

in case your wondering = TDI (Two Dollar Instructor)

3rd May 2005, 04:13	#61 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,562	Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook) (ie I think the longest semi-closed run I did on either course was 15 or 20 minutes). Mostly as a result of this, I have done a lot of training dives on my own over the last year. The result is that I've been able to do more combinations of drills (something that's typically only touched on the final dive of the formal course), extended drills (ie about 75 or 80 minutes on SCR, compare with above) and practised some stuff I've found out about since the course. The point of training is to teach you how to do something, the point of experience is to put that training into practice. You really want to pay an instructor to watch you run your unit in scr mode for 80 minutes? __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
(Offline)

3rd May 2005, 04:38	#62 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,126	Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook) Personally, I think I got great value out of both the CCR courses (YBOD & Meg) that I've done. I was very selective about instructors - as with Phi, I flew halfway around the world on one occasion (& will be doing so again in October for my CCR trimix course). The training has also been shown to work as regards the basics - I had a solenoid fail open on the second dive after the Meg course - closed the O2 valve and ddid a 40 minute swim back to the entry point with ZERO stress. Unfortunatlely CCR courses are made way too short to fit everything in, or to keep drills running for long enough (ie I think the longest semi-closed run I did on either course was 15 or 20 minutes). Mostly as a result of this, I have done a lot of training dives on my own over the last year. The result is that I've been able to do more combinations of drills (something that's typically only touched on the final dive of the formal course), extended drills (ie about 75 or 80 minutes on SCR, compare with above) and practised some stuff I've found out about since the course. I've also come up with some stuff on my own (ie semi closed dumping a fraction of each breath) and worked on that. Also, the two instructors I've used had a number of areas they did differently, so although I can do things either way, I have my preferred method. You can't fit all of the above into a 6 or 8 dive course. The result of spending a heap of time on it is that I'm much more proficient now than when I came out of the course. Therefore I see the use of an instructor as the start of learning how to do something, not the complete process, Thanks, Robert The initial class should teach you the basic skills.. Running SCR for a short period in the pool, then on a few seperate training divesfor 15 mins or so each is enough to have the students LEARN the technique... It is up to them to parctice, practice,practice until it becomes second nature.. On more advanced classes it should be expected the techniuqe be somewahat reefined so that it can be done for longer periods of time at deeper depths.. On the Second ANDI class we do 30 minutes SCR (or more), while doing additional tasks (including shooting a bag) to simulate real world task loading..(more than 1 scr dive may be required, based on students performance at a consistent loop) We also do these drills with a deco gas starting at 21m and do a simulated decompression profile and judge how close they would be to their real schedule (based on loop po2) .. ANDI's second class is almost TOTALLY manual.. the electronics are just there for a safety net.. If the divers screw up, their decompression schedules will be wrong so contant evaulation is down by the instructor and if need beadditional dives and instruction are mnadated.. By the end, the diver is fully competent at diving without the electronics.. This level of expertese can't me expected by a new CCR diver, they don't have the time on the unit for this type of mastery.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

3rd May 2005, 10:42	#63 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 335	Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie) Right - as most people are aware, I am a strong proponent of self-teaching in my own personal diving.... I have had excellent value for money from my instructors over the years. I have had tailormade courses from some of the finest divers in the world who were themselves educated by experts in their field. The training was concise, clear and relevant. The people who gave it were my friends. The cost was nothing. Self-teaching is not for everyone and unfortunately qualifications from the "Dive School of Life" aren't recognised widely. As far as homebuild "instruction" goes - I'm afraid that you are largely on your own - it comes with the terratory. I would take it as a personal affront if someone thought they could teach me about my rebreather. However, I have had plenty of constructive advice on the way which has always been welcome... I think that even if I were to buy a commercial rebreather, I'd probably read the manual and go off and dive the unit. I guess I'm that sort of person. Duncan
(Offline)

4th May 2005, 03:30	#64 (permalink)
Robert Cook Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 107	Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) It is up to them to parctice, practice,practice until it becomes second nature.. This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with, Thanks, Robert
(Offline)

4th May 2005, 04:07	#65 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,126	Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook) Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) It is up to them to parctice, practice,practice until it becomes second nature.. This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with, Thanks, Robert The only people you can blame is the instructors for not stressing it enough.. I do plenty of instructor crossover (or attempted crossovers ;0 ) so I get to see alot of instructors attitudes.. Too many of them just don't get it... I know I hound my students to no end stressing I am just giving them the toolsand that they need to practice and refine the skills until everything becomes second nature. A week at the basic class is just enough to get them going.. I find most realize the importance of skills like SCR once they start doing deco profiles, the person doing recreational profiles doesn't always see the value of this skill since they can usually just go to open circuit bailout.. I try and get my students to treat all their dives as technical dives and not bail to OC at tfe first sign of trouble and I push learning to make due with any electronics.. I try my part in not signing off a xover or making an instructor for ANDI that doesn't meet my expectations regardless how much money they are spending (I make my guys sign learning agreements ahead of time, stating the training DOES NOT guarantee certification) __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

4th May 2005, 05:48	#66 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,200	Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook) This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with, Thanks, Robert I normally pair up a just qualified student with an experienced CCR diver who I have also taught. I then encourage them to perform skills together on the initial subsequent dives and I speak to them regularly afterwards. By conversing with them and asking pointed questions I can ascertain if they have been doing their skills. Also, it is down to the way you sell the skills to them on the course. If you explain why they should be done, and more importantly why they should be practised then people are generally willing to see them not as chores, rather as mandatory life-support skills. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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4th May 2005, 08:27	#67 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,126	Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) Also, it is down to the way you sell the skills to them on the course. If you explain why they should be done, and more importantly why they should be practised then people are generally willing to see them not as chores, rather as mandatory life-support skills. Cheers, Dave Cooper. exactly... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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4th May 2005, 10:12	#68 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,147	Quote: (Originally Posted by Robert Cook) This is a problem - quite a high percentage of the CCR divers I've seen do little if any skill practise after the course, and just don't seem to understand the need for it. I'm not sure what the solution is - any ideas?? I'm now getting more and more paranoid about who I dive with, Thanks, Robert Its a mix of instructor and student efforts. Some people just dont like doing drills whatever the motivation. Thats their call, although I'd argue that the only person they're kidding is themselves. Personally I find deco dull..... to distract myself from the urge to piss around, I'll do drills. Ditto on noddy dives/winter training dives. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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4th May 2005, 10:59	#69 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,412	From some of the comments that get posted on various forums, you have to wonder exactly what does get taught on some courses. Or maybe wonder why the instructor passed them. A course is only as good as the instructor and if there are instructors passing muppets then it is no wonder that they aren't going to be practicing basic skills.
(Offline)

4th May 2005, 12:06	#70 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,379	Ive just been talking to a guy who did a YBOD course then imediately after (on the same trip)did an YBOD instructor course. He bought a unit but didnt dive it for nearly a year. Then he does a dozen or so shallow reef dives on it (During a 3 month period) and sells it. A year later hes in a position 'politically' within his agency to sign over a student to trimix ccr!!. This guy has never even dived any rebreather beyond 30m!!. And he hasnt done more than 50 dives on a Rebreather - ever and as far as I am aware never even a single Trimix RB dive What a frigging joke. I have lost whatever minute respect I ever had for this particular training agency. in case your wondering = TDI (Two Dollar Instructor)
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