Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first

**RichClark** · 12th April 2006, 12:22

I think it has less to do with the standards, and more to do with personal ability and comfort levels - you'll know when you're ready to take the next step. Personally speaking, I plan to use normoxic Trimix in my CK just as soon as I get back to the same level of in water competence and comfort as OC Trimix. Right now my buoyancy and PPO2 generally control sucks

(only 15 hrs)

To me Normoxic is just an alternative to air. I generally didn't dive past 35m without mix (mainly because that's what I had in my tanks) so why should I with my KISS.

MOD3 is definitely on the agenda for me, but I'm anticipating early 2007 for this. When I bought my KISS in did so knowing that this year was dedicated to skills and drills and getting and building experience... the wrecks will still be there I hope!

Cheers

Rich

sannerman · 12th April 2006, 12:34

Yes that's right, to handle the upcoming problems. And in my point of viewing Rebreather diving and problems and how to handle them is quite the same, regardless of what you actually breathing, more of how long time before you can break the surface. Could be far in a cave or shallow dive say 40m but 1houer deco to obliged. And sure if you go deeper you need to adequate bailout gas/es en enough of it.
So the problem handling cant be much different, my Rebreather won't behave different because I´m at 80m and breathing He mix compared air at 35m? Or have I missed some major thing here?

But I don´t disagree that it´s good to take a class.

But do I have to go Mod2 before Mod3? or can i jump directly to Mod3 if the instructor think I could manage that level?

/Z

**RichClark** · 12th April 2006, 12:43

My understanding is that unless you're already Trimix trained, then you need to go through MOD2. If I'm wrong, someone will be along soon to let you know

Rich

Ben Field · 12th April 2006, 13:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

Regardless of course standards the over-riding standard rests with you. For trimix CCR you would need to have the same general in water experience/capability/knowledge and diving common sense that you would before approaching an OC trimix course plus the same level of equipment confidence and familiarity with the rebreather as an OC diver would with OC kit.
Anyway, good luck!

I've done OC Trimix but only CCR Mod 1.... however I pescribe the theory above....

IMO diving serious extended range/trimix requires a healthy sense of self preservation and good ear for your inner voice (you know, the one that says- "Now is the time to go up, hint hint"

)

If you are lucky enough to have good regular buddies they will most likely be a good guide for when you are ready to step up.

Remember this is a hobby/lifestyle NOT a sport!
Ticket collectors and competitors generally meet with incidents of some kind from what I've seen.

People often cite going over to CCR because- "Trimix will be cheaper" and I'd wager a few people have gone there too quickly, some got scared, backed off and learnt more- they where the smart ones.

Me? I'm taking my time, the wrecks aren't going anywhere.... better to get there in one piece and really be ready to enjoy them than rush and not enjoy it or worse get put off or hurt.

All IMVHO of course,
BEN

***jradomski*** · 12th April 2006, 13:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by sannerman)

So the problem handling cant be much different, my Rebreather won't behave different because I´m at 80m and breathing He mix compared air at 35m? Or have I missed some major thing here?

/Z

Problem handling IS different... going OC is not the solution of choice, in most cases its the LAST thing you want to do.....

FOr shallow do deco dives bailing ot OC is an OK choice, Bailing to OC when you have say.. 3 hours of deco is a different story..

Craig69 · 12th April 2006, 13:52

Thanks for all the advice.

I realise that Trimix will be a big step for me whether on OC or CCR, and it will be all the more difficult on CCR as in two years time it will still be a 'new' way of diving for me.

I just need to get my training plans straightened out now so that I know where I am going and the safest way of getting there.

Mike · 12th April 2006, 15:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

FOr shallow do deco dives bailing ot OC is an OK choice, Bailing to OC when you have say.. 3 hours of deco is a different story..

Ummm, why?

No argument that I would prefer to stay on the loop, but why is bailing to OC such a big deal?
You have access to the deco gasses, you have a plan, with appropriate gasses the runtime isn't that different etc. Sure, your options are now more limited as you are using your redundant system, but that's what it's there for. Hopefully if you are unlucky enough to have a second failure, buddies / support crew will sell you some of their spare gas.

Longest deco I've ever done was only a bit over an hour (OC) and around 40 minutes CC, so perhaps something really strange happens in the third hour? But somehow I doubt it, a lot more of the same is more likely.

I've heard the 'stay on the loop at all costs' mantra a few times, and don't really understand. I understand the 'I can, so I will' mentality, is there anything else?

Mike

***jradomski*** · 12th April 2006, 15:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

Ummm, why?

No argument that I would prefer to stay on the loop, but why is bailing to OC such a big deal?
You have access to the deco gasses, you have a plan, with appropriate gasses the runtime isn't that different etc. Sure, your options are now more limited as you are using your redundant system, but that's what it's there for. Hopefully if you are unlucky enough to have a second failure, buddies / support crew will sell you some of their spare gas.

Longest deco I've ever done was only a bit over an hour (OC) and around 40 minutes CC, so perhaps something really strange happens in the third hour? But somehow I doubt it, a lot more of the same is more likely.

I've heard the 'stay on the loop at all costs' mantra a few times, and don't really understand. I understand the 'I can, so I will' mentality, is there anything else?

Mike

Short dives.. OC works...

I usually have at least one 4 hour dive (conditions permitting) with my trimix students.. all other dives are usually at least 2 hours... with about 2.5 the average.. bottom times are usually 30mins to 1hr depending on depth

You plan a team bailout.. covering that much deco with oc is difficult for one person to carry (and its still alot even with team planning).. so Bailing to OC at the first sign of trouble increase the risks.. the longer you can stay on the loop the more options you have..

My longest CC dive is as long as most peoples workday

all but about 30 minutes of it was deco...

MHD · 12th April 2006, 15:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Problem handling IS different... going OC is not the solution of choice, in most cases its the LAST thing you want to do.....

FOr shallow do deco dives bailing ot OC is an OK choice, Bailing to OC when you have say.. 3 hours of deco is a different story..

OK as a self trained CCR diver i willl bite on this. CCR Dives 25. trimix dives 7 , the reality of this is pure logistics, if you can work out from your basic deco course what OC gas you need for bail out and what other options you need to understand, just go for it. Don't jump in and just go for it, work it through and understand the issues. Personally instructors promote solutions that result in you staying on the loop beyond the point where you should of have gone OC, and resulting increased complexity when you least want / need to get out. This whole issue of staying on the loop is a poor choice in most situations, yes if you put youself in the position where you exceed your capability to carry OC gas, you are in deep Shit, but good planning and fore thought will get you out of that. But the mentality of staying on the loop at all costs is what kills people. This is the whole underlying principal of the KISS system, basically if the Shit it's the fan, go to open circuit, and you have mininised your exit work load and problem solving requirements, and then can concentrate on getting to the surface safely.

This is the classic arguement, what is more safe, a twin engine aircraft with a single engine failure or a single engine aircraft with a engine failure? The truth is that the options and resulting work load of a twin engine failure results in poor decision making response that result in increases mortality in that case.

I have recently read a major training angency's latest offering in CCR training, their inherent pre-disposition for staying on the loop is amazing. While they talk about going OC at the first sign of trouble, their solutions are based on staying on the loop.

The truth is, that the simpler you make the solution the more effective it is.

let the war begin.

Note, I am off line for 3 weeks after this post, so don't expect a quick response from me, but I am happy to continue this debate
on my return

Matt

***jradomski*** · 12th April 2006, 15:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

OK as a self trained CCR diver i willl bite on this. CCR Dives 25. trimix dives 7 , the reality of this is pure logistics, if you can work out from your basic deco course what OC gas you need for bail out and what other options you need to understand, just go for it. Don't jump in and just go for it, work it through and understand the issues. Personally instructors promote solutions that result in you staying on the loop beyond the point where you should of have gone OC, and resulting increased complexity when you least want / need to get out. This whole issue of staying on the loop is a poor choice in most situations, yes if you put youself in the position where you exceed your capability to carry OC gas, you are in deep Shit, but good planning and fore thought will get you out of that. But the mentality of staying on the loop at all costs is what kills people. This is the whole underlying principal of the KISS principal, basically if the Shit it's the fan, go to open circuit, and you have mininised your exit work load and problem solving requirements, and then can concentrate on getting to the surface safely.

This is the classic arguement, what is more safe, a twin engine aircraft with a single engine failure or a single engine aircraft with a engine failure? the truth is that the options and resulting work load of a twin engine failure results in poor decision making response that result in increases mortality in that case.

I have recently read a major training angency's latest offering in CCR training, their inherent pre-disposition for staying on the loop is amazing. While they talk about going OC, their solutions are based on staying on the loop.

The truth is, that the simpler you make the solution the more effective it is.

let the war begin.

Note, I am off line for 3 weeks after this post, so don't expect a quick response from me, but I am happy to continue this debate
on my return

Matt

With proper training and PRACTICE, staying on the loop gives you alot more margin of error than bailing to OC, especially on deep dives..

The only two things that force me off the loop is scrubber failure or loss of loop integrity... Otherwise Staying on the loop IS keeping it simple..

12th April 2006, 12:22	#11 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 793	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first I think it has less to do with the standards, and more to do with personal ability and comfort levels - you'll know when you're ready to take the next step. Personally speaking, I plan to use normoxic Trimix in my CK just as soon as I get back to the same level of in water competence and comfort as OC Trimix. Right now my buoyancy and PPO2 generally control sucks (only 15 hrs) To me Normoxic is just an alternative to air. I generally didn't dive past 35m without mix (mainly because that's what I had in my tanks) so why should I with my KISS. MOD3 is definitely on the agenda for me, but I'm anticipating early 2007 for this. When I bought my KISS in did so knowing that this year was dedicated to skills and drills and getting and building experience... the wrecks will still be there I hope! Cheers Rich __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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12th April 2006, 12:34	#12 (permalink)
sannerman Let´s Go Down For a While Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 106	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first Yes that's right, to handle the upcoming problems. And in my point of viewing Rebreather diving and problems and how to handle them is quite the same, regardless of what you actually breathing, more of how long time before you can break the surface. Could be far in a cave or shallow dive say 40m but 1houer deco to obliged. And sure if you go deeper you need to adequate bailout gas/es en enough of it. So the problem handling cant be much different, my Rebreather won't behave different because I´m at 80m and breathing He mix compared air at 35m? Or have I missed some major thing here? But I don´t disagree that it´s good to take a class. But do I have to go Mod2 before Mod3? or can i jump directly to Mod3 if the instructor think I could manage that level? /Z __________________ Det är hårt på sjön, fast hårdare på land www.pagi.se
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12th April 2006, 12:43	#13 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 793	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first My understanding is that unless you're already Trimix trained, then you need to go through MOD2. If I'm wrong, someone will be along soon to let you know Rich __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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12th April 2006, 13:30	#14 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,822	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) Regardless of course standards the over-riding standard rests with you. For trimix CCR you would need to have the same general in water experience/capability/knowledge and diving common sense that you would before approaching an OC trimix course plus the same level of equipment confidence and familiarity with the rebreather as an OC diver would with OC kit. Anyway, good luck! I've done OC Trimix but only CCR Mod 1.... however I pescribe the theory above.... IMO diving serious extended range/trimix requires a healthy sense of self preservation and good ear for your inner voice (you know, the one that says- "Now is the time to go up, hint hint" ) If you are lucky enough to have good regular buddies they will most likely be a good guide for when you are ready to step up. Remember this is a hobby/lifestyle NOT a sport! Ticket collectors and competitors generally meet with incidents of some kind from what I've seen. People often cite going over to CCR because- "Trimix will be cheaper" and I'd wager a few people have gone there too quickly, some got scared, backed off and learnt more- they where the smart ones. Me? I'm taking my time, the wrecks aren't going anywhere.... better to get there in one piece and really be ready to enjoy them than rush and not enjoy it or worse get put off or hurt. All IMVHO of course, BEN __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer, don't listen to Puppeteers and RTFM!
(Online)

12th April 2006, 13:43	#15 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,126	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first Quote: (Originally Posted by sannerman) So the problem handling cant be much different, my Rebreather won't behave different because I´m at 80m and breathing He mix compared air at 35m? Or have I missed some major thing here? /Z Problem handling IS different... going OC is not the solution of choice, in most cases its the LAST thing you want to do..... FOr shallow do deco dives bailing ot OC is an OK choice, Bailing to OC when you have say.. 3 hours of deco is a different story.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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12th April 2006, 13:52	#16 (permalink)
Craig69 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire (Gods Own County), England. Posts: 123	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first Thanks for all the advice. I realise that Trimix will be a big step for me whether on OC or CCR, and it will be all the more difficult on CCR as in two years time it will still be a 'new' way of diving for me. I just need to get my training plans straightened out now so that I know where I am going and the safest way of getting there. __________________ Craig. www.thornebsac.co.uk
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12th April 2006, 15:16	#17 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 336	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) FOr shallow do deco dives bailing ot OC is an OK choice, Bailing to OC when you have say.. 3 hours of deco is a different story.. Ummm, why? No argument that I would prefer to stay on the loop, but why is bailing to OC such a big deal? You have access to the deco gasses, you have a plan, with appropriate gasses the runtime isn't that different etc. Sure, your options are now more limited as you are using your redundant system, but that's what it's there for. Hopefully if you are unlucky enough to have a second failure, buddies / support crew will sell you some of their spare gas. Longest deco I've ever done was only a bit over an hour (OC) and around 40 minutes CC, so perhaps something really strange happens in the third hour? But somehow I doubt it, a lot more of the same is more likely. I've heard the 'stay on the loop at all costs' mantra a few times, and don't really understand. I understand the 'I can, so I will' mentality, is there anything else? Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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12th April 2006, 15:27	#18 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,126	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC first Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) Ummm, why? No argument that I would prefer to stay on the loop, but why is bailing to OC such a big deal? You have access to the deco gasses, you have a plan, with appropriate gasses the runtime isn't that different etc. Sure, your options are now more limited as you are using your redundant system, but that's what it's there for. Hopefully if you are unlucky enough to have a second failure, buddies / support crew will sell you some of their spare gas. Longest deco I've ever done was only a bit over an hour (OC) and around 40 minutes CC, so perhaps something really strange happens in the third hour? But somehow I doubt it, a lot more of the same is more likely. I've heard the 'stay on the loop at all costs' mantra a few times, and don't really understand. I understand the 'I can, so I will' mentality, is there anything else? Mike Short dives.. OC works... I usually have at least one 4 hour dive (conditions permitting) with my trimix students.. all other dives are usually at least 2 hours... with about 2.5 the average.. bottom times are usually 30mins to 1hr depending on depth You plan a team bailout.. covering that much deco with oc is difficult for one person to carry (and its still alot even with team planning).. so Bailing to OC at the first sign of trouble increase the risks.. the longer you can stay on the loop the more options you have.. My longest CC dive is as long as most peoples workday all but about 30 minutes of it was deco... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 12th April 2006 at 15:30.
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12th April 2006, 15:30	#19 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC f Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Problem handling IS different... going OC is not the solution of choice, in most cases its the LAST thing you want to do..... FOr shallow do deco dives bailing ot OC is an OK choice, Bailing to OC when you have say.. 3 hours of deco is a different story.. OK as a self trained CCR diver i willl bite on this. CCR Dives 25. trimix dives 7 , the reality of this is pure logistics, if you can work out from your basic deco course what OC gas you need for bail out and what other options you need to understand, just go for it. Don't jump in and just go for it, work it through and understand the issues. Personally instructors promote solutions that result in you staying on the loop beyond the point where you should of have gone OC, and resulting increased complexity when you least want / need to get out. This whole issue of staying on the loop is a poor choice in most situations, yes if you put youself in the position where you exceed your capability to carry OC gas, you are in deep Shit, but good planning and fore thought will get you out of that. But the mentality of staying on the loop at all costs is what kills people. This is the whole underlying principal of the KISS system, basically if the Shit it's the fan, go to open circuit, and you have mininised your exit work load and problem solving requirements, and then can concentrate on getting to the surface safely. This is the classic arguement, what is more safe, a twin engine aircraft with a single engine failure or a single engine aircraft with a engine failure? The truth is that the options and resulting work load of a twin engine failure results in poor decision making response that result in increases mortality in that case. I have recently read a major training angency's latest offering in CCR training, their inherent pre-disposition for staying on the loop is amazing. While they talk about going OC at the first sign of trouble, their solutions are based on staying on the loop. The truth is, that the simpler you make the solution the more effective it is. let the war begin. Note, I am off line for 3 weeks after this post, so don't expect a quick response from me, but I am happy to continue this debate on my return Matt Last edited by MHD : 12th April 2006 at 15:39.
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12th April 2006, 15:34	#20 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,126	Re: Kiss Classic - hour many hours before trimix training and do I need to do it OC f Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) OK as a self trained CCR diver i willl bite on this. CCR Dives 25. trimix dives 7 , the reality of this is pure logistics, if you can work out from your basic deco course what OC gas you need for bail out and what other options you need to understand, just go for it. Don't jump in and just go for it, work it through and understand the issues. Personally instructors promote solutions that result in you staying on the loop beyond the point where you should of have gone OC, and resulting increased complexity when you least want / need to get out. This whole issue of staying on the loop is a poor choice in most situations, yes if you put youself in the position where you exceed your capability to carry OC gas, you are in deep Shit, but good planning and fore thought will get you out of that. But the mentality of staying on the loop at all costs is what kills people. This is the whole underlying principal of the KISS principal, basically if the Shit it's the fan, go to open circuit, and you have mininised your exit work load and problem solving requirements, and then can concentrate on getting to the surface safely. This is the classic arguement, what is more safe, a twin engine aircraft with a single engine failure or a single engine aircraft with a engine failure? the truth is that the options and resulting work load of a twin engine failure results in poor decision making response that result in increases mortality in that case. I have recently read a major training angency's latest offering in CCR training, their inherent pre-disposition for staying on the loop is amazing. While they talk about going OC, their solutions are based on staying on the loop. The truth is, that the simpler you make the solution the more effective it is. let the war begin. Note, I am off line for 3 weeks after this post, so don't expect a quick response from me, but I am happy to continue this debate on my return Matt With proper training and PRACTICE, staying on the loop gives you alot more margin of error than bailing to OC, especially on deep dives.. The only two things that force me off the loop is scrubber failure or loss of loop integrity... Otherwise Staying on the loop IS keeping it simple.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 12th April 2006 at 16:56.
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