Crossover Training

***jradomski*** · 15th March 2007, 17:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by dantheman)

Really?

Does he not teach SCR at all, or just teach it in a special way?

--dan

leon does not teach it to entry level ccr divers and is against it.. even though its part of the IANTD standards..

18. SCR mode of diving. (Recommended - 10 minutes) On one dive the diluent or the stage cylinder may be used for this drill.
personally I'm from the other camp and think its an extremely important skill and entry level divers are capable of learning it now rather than later..

I agree the usefullness for an ENTRY level ccr diver is limited, but I feel its better to teach the skill from the beginning and work on it during later classes, instead of introducing it in later classes..

***schford*** · 15th March 2007, 19:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by richie)

i treid that several times but even when the opv was full open i would not dump the gass quick enough to not effect bouyancy , unless i was pinned to the bottom or holding on to something , is mine not working right? i am wieghted correctly with the unit so i can not compinsate for the extra gass in the loop needed to activate opv buy dummping extra gas from say drysuit/wing??????

Difficult to say but when we did test bailouts from 80m took me a little bit to get hang of technique but then no real issues.

Going up I would perodically cross my right hand over crushing right o****er lung and give the left counter lung a push - when I wanted to speed it up I would role to the right and back a bit while doing it.

I did this maybe every 5 or 10 m I ascended (memory rusty this was 2 years ago) and I confess ot not having practised bailout form depth since.

Stuart

***Beanie*** · 15th March 2007, 21:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Difficult to say but when we did test bailouts from 80m took me a little bit to get hang of technique but then no real issues.

Going up I would periodically cross my right hand over crushing right counter lung and give the left counter lung a push - when I wanted to speed it up I would role to the right and back a bit while doing it.

I did this maybe every 5 or 10 m I ascended (memory rusty this was 2 years ago) and I confess to not having practiced bailout form depth since.

Stuart

need a bit of string on your dump

can't think of reason that you'd need to open the mouthpiece rather than use the dump valve - sounds a little scary to me

richie · 15th March 2007, 21:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Difficult to say but when we did test bailouts from 80m took me a little bit to get hang of technique but then no real issues.

Going up I would perodically cross my right hand over crushing right o****er lung and give the left counter lung a push - when I wanted to speed it up I would role to the right and back a bit while doing it.

I did this maybe every 5 or 10 m I ascended (memory rusty this was 2 years ago) and I confess ot not having practised bailout form depth since.

Stuart

i will give it another go on saturday, and see if i can squzze the gas out, i was looking/playing with the opv just now while washing the meg and it does seem to have loosend up more [more sensitive] since the course

**wedivebc** · 15th March 2007, 21:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

That's not specific to any unit skill set, and up to the instructor teaching idealogy. If Leon was teaching an Insp course, I am sure he would do the same (as in his MK-15 courses).
.

Yes but the "muscle memory" would be different for the particular unit due to placement of the parts

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Huh ? You lost me.

Doh! ADV

Nick uk. · 15th March 2007, 22:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by dantheman)

Really?

Does he not teach SCR at all, or just teach it in a special way?

--dan

I too only talked about SCR bailout in theory during my course, The school of thought being that it's a LAST resort when the sheet has really hit the fan and you've somehow managed to loose your 'adequate OC bailout' ..........

n2diving · 15th March 2007, 23:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Cross over to the HH was free. I just read the manual.

I just noticed this comment.

Would the implication be that crossover from one eCCR to another is as simple as reading the manual for the electronics and the manufacturer manual for the CCR? If so, why bother to issue type specific CCR ratings?

It's interesting, but seems like it would not be appropriate for any CCR student I ever had, crossover or not. I assume they have read the manuals before they come to the course. If not I send them away to read it. Then I teach the hammerhead electronics. I find I will usually spend several hours discussing stuff that's not in the HH manual, clarifying the information, pointing out the implications, discussing the options and helping them decide what values to set, long discussion of batteries, additional tips on handset care, some strategies to deal with problems....

While the exceptional CCR diver might not need crossover training, I would think it's needed for nearly all. I would also have to be very concerned if someone wanted to purchase an O2ptima from me and was insistent they did not need crossover training.

sensor330 · 16th March 2007, 01:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

I just noticed this comment.

Would the implication be that crossover from one eCCR to another is as simple as reading the manual for the electronics and the manufacturer manual for the CCR? If so, why bother to issue type specific CCR ratings?

It's interesting, but seems like it would not be appropriate for any CCR student I ever had, crossover or not. I assume they have read the manuals before they come to the course. If not I send them away to read it. Then I teach the hammerhead electronics. I find I will usually spend several hours discussing stuff that's not in the HH manual, clarifying the information, pointing out the implications, discussing the options and helping them decide what values to set, long discussion of batteries, additional tips on handset care, some strategies to deal with problems....

While the exceptional CCR diver might not need crossover training, I would think it's needed for nearly all. I would also have to be very concerned if someone wanted to purchase an O2ptima from me and was insistent they did not need crossover training.

All Inspiration divers that have converted to HH have been doing it years before the Optima was released without training and incident. I think that has a lot to say about the value one would get out of crossover training.

Scott

***caveseeker7*** · 16th March 2007, 01:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

All Inspiration divers that have converted to HH have been doing it years before the Optima was released without training and incident. I think that has a lot to say about the value one would get out of crossover training.

Scott

Most of them were also trained and experienced on their Inspirations, use of multi-mix/pO2 deco computers etc. It was the same with Classic Kiss units in the beginning, proof of CCR training on any unit was sufficient until a course was laid out.

With Alan Studley being my Kiss instructor I didn't even ask about cross training, I wanted the entire class. And it was worth every minute and dime I spend in and on it.

Crossover training is as good as the instructor, and what you make of it.

sensor330 · 16th March 2007, 01:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Most of them were also trained and experienced on their Inspirations, use of multi-mix/pO2 deco computers etc. It was the same with Classic Kiss units in the beginning, proof of CCR training on any unit was sufficient until a course was laid out.

With Alan Studley being my Kiss instructor I didn't even ask about cross training, I wanted the entire class. And it was worth every minute and dime I spend in and on it.

Crossover training is as good as the instructor, and what you make of it.

I guess like it was already said in previous posts. Some people defiantly need it while others could get by reading the manual. I think I could get by on the reading the manual. I've demonstrated that I could convert and dive a CCR Dolphin by doing just that. As well I did heavily modify my Inspiration and do some very amazing dives with it.

15th March 2007, 17:40	#31 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,126	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by dantheman) Really? Does he not teach SCR at all, or just teach it in a special way? --dan leon does not teach it to entry level ccr divers and is against it.. even though its part of the IANTD standards.. 18. SCR mode of diving. (Recommended - 10 minutes) On one dive the diluent or the stage cylinder may be used for this drill. personally I'm from the other camp and think its an extremely important skill and entry level divers are capable of learning it now rather than later.. I agree the usefullness for an ENTRY level ccr diver is limited, but I feel its better to teach the skill from the beginning and work on it during later classes, instead of introducing it in later classes.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 15th March 2007 at 17:44.
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15th March 2007, 19:43	#32 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by richie) i treid that several times but even when the opv was full open i would not dump the gass quick enough to not effect bouyancy , unless i was pinned to the bottom or holding on to something , is mine not working right? i am wieghted correctly with the unit so i can not compinsate for the extra gass in the loop needed to activate opv buy dummping extra gas from say drysuit/wing?????? Difficult to say but when we did test bailouts from 80m took me a little bit to get hang of technique but then no real issues. Going up I would perodically cross my right hand over crushing right o**er lung and give the left counter lung a push - when I wanted to speed it up I would role to the right and back a bit while doing it. I did this maybe every 5 or 10 m I ascended (memory rusty this was 2 years ago) and I confess ot not having practised bailout form depth since. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only** bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of RBW is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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15th March 2007, 21:10	#33 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,327	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Difficult to say but when we did test bailouts from 80m took me a little bit to get hang of technique but then no real issues. Going up I would periodically cross my right hand over crushing right counter lung and give the left counter lung a push - when I wanted to speed it up I would role to the right and back a bit while doing it. I did this maybe every 5 or 10 m I ascended (memory rusty this was 2 years ago) and I confess to not having practiced bailout form depth since. Stuart need a bit of string on your dump can't think of reason that you'd need to open the mouthpiece rather than use the dump valve - sounds a little scary to me __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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15th March 2007, 21:10	#34 (permalink)
richie New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ireland Posts: 86	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Difficult to say but when we did test bailouts from 80m took me a little bit to get hang of technique but then no real issues. Going up I would perodically cross my right hand over crushing right o**er lung and give the left counter lung a push - when I wanted to speed it up I would role to the right and back a bit while doing it. I did this maybe every 5 or 10 m I ascended (memory rusty this was 2 years ago) and I confess ot not having practised bailout form depth since. Stuart i will give it another go on saturday, and see if i can squzze the gas out, i was looking/playing with the opv just now while washing the meg and it does seem to have loosend up more [more sensitive] since the course __________________ assumption is mother of all ** ups
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15th March 2007, 21:23	#35 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,562	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) That's not specific to any unit skill set, and up to the instructor teaching idealogy. If Leon was teaching an Insp course, I am sure he would do the same (as in his MK-15 courses). . Yes but the "muscle memory" would be different for the particular unit due to placement of the parts Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Huh ? You lost me. Doh! ADV __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die Last edited by wedivebc : 15th March 2007 at 21:33.
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15th March 2007, 22:22	#36 (permalink)
Nick uk. Made in England. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Viale C.Colombo 75 Marina di Carrara. MS 54036 Italy Posts: 575	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by dantheman) Really? Does he not teach SCR at all, or just teach it in a special way? --dan I too only talked about SCR bailout in theory during my course, The school of thought being that it's a LAST resort when the sheet has really hit the fan and you've somehow managed to loose your 'adequate OC bailout' .......... __________________ If it aint broke....don't fix it, and if it is.............well......get another one! divechief2000@hotmail.com
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15th March 2007, 23:39	#37 (permalink)
n2diving www.RebreatherExpress.com Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 281	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Cross over to the HH was free. I just read the manual. I just noticed this comment. Would the implication be that crossover from one eCCR to another is as simple as reading the manual for the electronics and the manufacturer manual for the CCR? If so, why bother to issue type specific CCR ratings? It's interesting, but seems like it would not be appropriate for any CCR student I ever had, crossover or not. I assume they have read the manuals before they come to the course. If not I send them away to read it. Then I teach the hammerhead electronics. I find I will usually spend several hours discussing stuff that's not in the HH manual, clarifying the information, pointing out the implications, discussing the options and helping them decide what values to set, long discussion of batteries, additional tips on handset care, some strategies to deal with problems.... While the exceptional CCR diver might not need crossover training, I would think it's needed for nearly all. I would also have to be very concerned if someone wanted to purchase an O2ptima from me and was insistent they did not need crossover training. Last edited by n2diving : 15th March 2007 at 23:43.
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16th March 2007, 01:05	#38 (permalink)
sensor330 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 608	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) I just noticed this comment. Would the implication be that crossover from one eCCR to another is as simple as reading the manual for the electronics and the manufacturer manual for the CCR? If so, why bother to issue type specific CCR ratings? It's interesting, but seems like it would not be appropriate for any CCR student I ever had, crossover or not. I assume they have read the manuals before they come to the course. If not I send them away to read it. Then I teach the hammerhead electronics. I find I will usually spend several hours discussing stuff that's not in the HH manual, clarifying the information, pointing out the implications, discussing the options and helping them decide what values to set, long discussion of batteries, additional tips on handset care, some strategies to deal with problems.... While the exceptional CCR diver might not need crossover training, I would think it's needed for nearly all. I would also have to be very concerned if someone wanted to purchase an O2ptima from me and was insistent they did not need crossover training. All Inspiration divers that have converted to HH have been doing it years before the Optima was released without training and incident. I think that has a lot to say about the value one would get out of crossover training. Scott
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16th March 2007, 01:19	#39 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,577	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) All Inspiration divers that have converted to HH have been doing it years before the Optima was released without training and incident. I think that has a lot to say about the value one would get out of crossover training. Scott Most of them were also trained and experienced on their Inspirations, use of multi-mix/pO2 deco computers etc. It was the same with Classic Kiss units in the beginning, proof of CCR training on any unit was sufficient until a course was laid out. With Alan Studley being my Kiss instructor I didn't even ask about cross training, I wanted the entire class. And it was worth every minute and dime I spend in and on it. Crossover training is as good as the instructor, and what you make of it. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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16th March 2007, 01:35	#40 (permalink)
sensor330 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 608	Re: Crossover Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Most of them were also trained and experienced on their Inspirations, use of multi-mix/pO2 deco computers etc. It was the same with Classic Kiss units in the beginning, proof of CCR training on any unit was sufficient until a course was laid out. With Alan Studley being my Kiss instructor I didn't even ask about cross training, I wanted the entire class. And it was worth every minute and dime I spend in and on it. Crossover training is as good as the instructor, and what you make of it. I guess like it was already said in previous posts. Some people defiantly need it while others could get by reading the manual. I think I could get by on the reading the manual. I've demonstrated that I could convert and dive a CCR Dolphin by doing just that. As well I did heavily modify my Inspiration and do some very amazing dives with it.
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