BOV: From design to implementation

Drmike · 23rd April 2007, 04:04

If your lugging gas around seems to me it ought to be somehow accessible in OC mode

If your using on-board for some/all of your bail out gas needs the downside is a common failure point OC/CC of dil/or O2 loss.

If you lose all your 'common' O2 you still have a breathable loop so your not going to drown - but you may have a shed load of deco

If you lose your 'common' dil you still have a breathable loop so your not going to drown - but you may have a problem if a) you have to descend in order to ascend (cave/wreck) or b) you exhale too much of the loop during ascent. (but you, [cough] have your full wing if you need extra dil on ascent

)

Personally I have access to my onboard gas - but its 'plug -in' (via QCs) when needed and I regard it as 'extra' to my bailout. I never used to, but try having to take your unit off your back remove the o2 tank connecting an oc regulator to it all whilst keeping your 6m depth and whilst keeping hold of your unit and the tank

....not fun.

dive2dive2000 · 23rd April 2007, 04:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866)

Dave I have a lot of respect for your experience, but to say that having bailout for dives to 130ft is a dumbed down method, is a little harsh, from your other post you say you dive your MK-15 with no external bailout to 130ft because this rig is the best to you, but some may read this and think that you make sense and apply this to say an IDA, a kiss ect... but a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble. My point is because of the respect you and others recieve because of your experience may lead a new Rebreather diver to apply some of your much more advanced methods, so maybe mentioning (IN BOLD) that what you do is not for the beginner, because this site has a lot of members, so we have to think about who might be reading. Dave.

Come on dude are you really serious

Any diver that trains from the internet... I refuse to go there you almost got me

**dz3866** · 23rd April 2007, 04:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Come on dude are you really serious

Any diver that trains from the internet... I refuse to go there you almost got me

Ah....make sense!!!

**dz3866** · 23rd April 2007, 04:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

I'm tired. Give me a break. One subject has nothing to do with another.

OFF TOPIC, but to answer...

Bailout: Divers ought to be able to access *all* of their gas open circuit. This includes their onboard gas. Why not? This is a no brainer. AP Valves sets up their rigs with an auto-air for this reason, for the diluent anyhow. It takes one quick-connect hose to make that true for the 02 also. I dunno why anyone could disagree. Want to disagree? Next subject.

Training: Much of the "industry" training is dumbed down. Everyone knows this. It has to be, otherwise it would exclude a number of people who, if trained under a simple system, will perform adequately. Making it too complex and too expert weeds out too many folks. This is the same in many other areas, not just diving. The basics need to be the main part of the training, the rig-specific stuff is second.

Expert techniques: You suggested that I keep expert techniques to myself as use of these methods by others is irresponsible. I disagree. folks are going to figure it out one way or another. So be it.

Rebreather specific training: There is NO REASON that each rebreather course needs to cover the core modules of PPO2 theory, etc. There is NO REASON why a simple crossover coure from one mCCR to another shuld take more than half a day *if the diver is WELL TRAINED in the basics to begin with*. I suspect that the latter is often not true.

rEvo: Great rig. Dunno why folks are more worried about how I got mine as compared to how I find it to dive. The subject of "how I got mine" is of no value to anyone else... the subjct of "what is it like" is of interest to many. It's hard to be polite when you're being given shit. I always try....

Any controversy here? Don't mean to make one up.

Gonna crash....

Dave

Dave, dont mis-quote me, I never said that you should keep your expert techniques to yourself, come on! I just said maybe state that it is expert because someone newly trained may want to do it because "you" metioned it, and yes newly trained could mean dumbed down training (but its the only training) I think an "expert" forum is a good idea. last I will post on it. Dave Z.

Drmike · 23rd April 2007, 05:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866)

I just said maybe state that it is expert because someone newly trained may want to do it because "you" metioned it,

snip

I think an "expert" forum is a good idea. .

If we really need to have a 'this is the opinion of an expert and protocals disclosed should only be used by an expert' notification in posts

Then we certainly need to have a 'this is the opinion of a know nothing newbie' disclosure too

Otherwise you may get people for eg deliberately calibrating with wet cells because someone with less dives than posts said it was a good idea

decoweenie · 23rd April 2007, 05:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

If we really need to have a 'this is the opinion of an expert and protocals disclosed should only be used by an expert' notification in posts...

Will this "expert forum" consist only the "100 top divers in the world" ?

Plus all of the "NDA dive consultants" ?

Drmike · 23rd April 2007, 05:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Will this "expert forum" consist only the "100 top divers in the world" ?

Plus all of the "NDA dive consultants" ?

Now we both know that the best divers;

1) Never post anything
2) Never talk about what they do
3) Have never made any mistakes
4) Are most likely female (alegedly)

so me and you are screwed on all 4 counts

decoweenie · 23rd April 2007, 06:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

4) Are most likely female (alegedly)

so me and you are screwed on all 4 counts

Number 4) is rectifiable...

We will discuss the details in OT next month while reviewing the "specimens"...

Drmike · 23rd April 2007, 06:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Number 4) is rectifiable...

We will discuss the details in OT next month while reviewing the "specimens"...

Recent cave diving trip to South Thailand:

US Diver: "Do you mind if my girlfriend joins us for dinner tonight?"

>sure why not

US Diver: "if your sure its ok - shes special"

>sure its fine

US Diver: "um, shes a ladyboy - but shes a very nice girl"

[....stunned silence]

>er, ok

[later that evening in comes 6'6" tall big boobed ladyboy hand in hand with diver]

I kid you not

Gilles · 23rd April 2007, 06:39

Before this thread gets too wonky...

I'd like to extend my thanks to all who have contributed technical input and opinion. I have learned much and leave this thread with a degree of enlightenment previously unanticipated.

I will now further research the archives on switchblock and other arrangements. I encourage any/all who are willing to add their own sketches/photos/ideas/etc on this thread for mine and others convenience. I am usually generous with green blobs

.

For any with interest in the original topic of this thread, the main short-coming of the above photographed set up is the lack of access to both the onboard dil and O2 (in the case of unrecoverable loop loss). I'm currently considering a switchblock set-up to provide onboard dil access. For onboard O2, switch the BOV feed to the right side, add another QD at the BOV feed, an extra female QD on a length of hose connected to the O2 to be manually connected to the BOV when needed (assuming this is easy to do). Something like that anyway...

Kind regards
Gilles

23rd April 2007, 04:04	#31 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: BOV: From design to implementation If your lugging gas around seems to me it ought to be somehow accessible in OC mode If your using on-board for some/all of your bail out gas needs the downside is a common failure point OC/CC of dil/or O2 loss. If you lose all your 'common' O2 you still have a breathable loop so your not going to drown - but you may have a shed load of deco If you lose your 'common' dil you still have a breathable loop so your not going to drown - but you may have a problem if a) you have to descend in order to ascend (cave/wreck) or b) you exhale too much of the loop during ascent. (but you, [cough] have your full wing if you need extra dil on ascent ) Personally I have access to my onboard gas - but its 'plug -in' (via QCs) when needed and I regard it as 'extra' to my bailout. I never used to, but try having to take your unit off your back remove the o2 tank connecting an oc regulator to it all whilst keeping your 6m depth and whilst keeping hold of your unit and the tank ....not fun. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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23rd April 2007, 04:28	#32 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866) Dave I have a lot of respect for your experience, but to say that having bailout for dives to 130ft is a dumbed down method, is a little harsh, from your other post you say you dive your MK-15 with no external bailout to 130ft because this rig is the best to you, but some may read this and think that you make sense and apply this to say an IDA, a kiss ect... but a blown hose or total loss of diluent on one of these units (with a newly trained diver) at 130ft means trouble. My point is because of the respect you and others recieve because of your experience may lead a new Rebreather diver to apply some of your much more advanced methods, so maybe mentioning (IN BOLD) that what you do is not for the beginner, because this site has a lot of members, so we have to think about who might be reading. Dave. Come on dude are you really serious Any diver that trains from the internet... I refuse to go there you almost got me __________________ Safe Diving, Martin "but what's the fun of getting what you need, instead of what you want?"
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23rd April 2007, 04:42	#33 (permalink)
dz3866 zboy Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2005 Location: US California Posts: 146	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Come on dude are you really serious Any diver that trains from the internet... I refuse to go there you almost got me Ah....make sense!!!
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23rd April 2007, 04:57	#34 (permalink)
dz3866 zboy Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2005 Location: US California Posts: 146	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) I'm tired. Give me a break. One subject has nothing to do with another. OFF TOPIC, but to answer... Bailout: Divers ought to be able to access all of their gas open circuit. This includes their onboard gas. Why not? This is a no brainer. AP Valves sets up their rigs with an auto-air for this reason, for the diluent anyhow. It takes one quick-connect hose to make that true for the 02 also. I dunno why anyone could disagree. Want to disagree? Next subject. Training: Much of the "industry" training is dumbed down. Everyone knows this. It has to be, otherwise it would exclude a number of people who, if trained under a simple system, will perform adequately. Making it too complex and too expert weeds out too many folks. This is the same in many other areas, not just diving. The basics need to be the main part of the training, the rig-specific stuff is second. Expert techniques: You suggested that I keep expert techniques to myself as use of these methods by others is irresponsible. I disagree. folks are going to figure it out one way or another. So be it. Rebreather specific training: There is NO REASON that each rebreather course needs to cover the core modules of PPO2 theory, etc. There is NO REASON why a simple crossover coure from one mCCR to another shuld take more than half a day if the diver is WELL TRAINED in the basics to begin with. I suspect that the latter is often not true. rEvo: Great rig. Dunno why folks are more worried about how I got mine as compared to how I find it to dive. The subject of "how I got mine" is of no value to anyone else... the subjct of "what is it like" is of interest to many. It's hard to be polite when you're being given shit. I always try.... Any controversy here? Don't mean to make one up. Gonna crash.... Dave Dave, dont mis-quote me, I never said that you should keep your expert techniques to yourself, come on! I just said maybe state that it is expert because someone newly trained may want to do it because "you" metioned it, and yes newly trained could mean dumbed down training (but its the only training) I think an "expert" forum is a good idea. last I will post on it. Dave Z.
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23rd April 2007, 05:09	#35 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866) I just said maybe state that it is expert because someone newly trained may want to do it because "you" metioned it, snip I think an "expert" forum is a good idea. . If we really need to have a 'this is the opinion of an expert and protocals disclosed should only be used by an expert' notification in posts Then we certainly need to have a 'this is the opinion of a know nothing newbie' disclosure too Otherwise you may get people for eg deliberately calibrating with wet cells because someone with less dives than posts said it was a good idea __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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23rd April 2007, 05:14	#36 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) If we really need to have a 'this is the opinion of an expert and protocals disclosed should only be used by an expert' notification in posts... Will this "expert forum" consist only the "100 top divers in the world" ? Plus all of the "NDA dive consultants" ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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23rd April 2007, 05:19	#37 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Will this "expert forum" consist only the "100 top divers in the world" ? Plus all of the "NDA dive consultants" ? Now we both know that the best divers; 1) Never post anything 2) Never talk about what they do 3) Have never made any mistakes 4) Are most likely female (alegedly) so me and you are screwed on all 4 counts __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 23rd April 2007 at 05:21.
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23rd April 2007, 06:06	#38 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) 4) Are most likely female (alegedly) so me and you are screwed on all 4 counts Number 4) is rectifiable... We will discuss the details in OT next month while reviewing the "specimens"... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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23rd April 2007, 06:37	#39 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Number 4) is rectifiable... We will discuss the details in OT next month while reviewing the "specimens"... Recent cave diving trip to South Thailand: US Diver: "Do you mind if my girlfriend joins us for dinner tonight?" >sure why not US Diver: "if your sure its ok - shes special" >sure its fine US Diver: "um, shes a ladyboy - but shes a very nice girl" [....stunned silence] >er, ok [later that evening in comes 6'6" tall big boobed ladyboy hand in hand with diver] I kid you not __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

23rd April 2007, 06:39	#40 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: BOV: From design to implementation Before this thread gets too wonky... I'd like to extend my thanks to all who have contributed technical input and opinion. I have learned much and leave this thread with a degree of enlightenment previously unanticipated. I will now further research the archives on switchblock and other arrangements. I encourage any/all who are willing to add their own sketches/photos/ideas/etc on this thread for mine and others convenience. I am usually generous with green blobs . For any with interest in the original topic of this thread, the main short-coming of the above photographed set up is the lack of access to both the onboard dil and O2 (in the case of unrecoverable loop loss). I'm currently considering a switchblock set-up to provide onboard dil access. For onboard O2, switch the BOV feed to the right side, add another QD at the BOV feed, an extra female QD on a length of hose connected to the O2 to be manually connected to the BOV when needed (assuming this is easy to do). Something like that anyway... Kind regards Gilles __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 23rd April 2007 at 11:42. Reason: To add shortcoming of current BOV config
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